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Post by Officer Barbrady on May 17, 2019 13:24:05 GMT
A politicians answer! You agree it's good that May's deal will be voted down again? Reason I ask is because likelihood is that it will mean it more likely to go back to people wouldnt it? The majority wanted to leave so if no deal is agreed then we do what the politicians said at outset and that the referendum result will be respected. We leave with no deal and all the time wasters will come to realise that is what we should have been prepared to do from day one and be better positioned to manage when exit day arrives. The referendum wasnt leave with no deal Eric as we have established that even though you personally did know this, all the media, vote leave campaign figurehead and other politicians did not and as such never talked about anything other than deals deals deals.
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Post by Officer Barbrady on May 17, 2019 13:28:19 GMT
A politicians answer! You agree it's good that May's deal will be voted down again? Reason I ask is because likelihood is that it will mean it more likely to go back to people wouldnt it? May's Treaty will be voted down again. What Parliament will do then is anyone's guess. The only way to 'put it to the people' is via a General Election, but that is the last thing either Tories or Labour want. Both parties have created a Fluster Cluck and now they don't know how to get out of it. Their heads have collectively disappeared up their arses. Maybe someone like Johnson or Rabb may come in and water off the EU so much that the EU refuse anymore extensions and kick us out! Personally, I don't think anything will change until a GE, which will change the numbers/personnel in Parliament. In the background, 498 MP's voted in favour of invoking Article 50.........................which is still the single, most positive vote regarding Brexit in Parliament. yes and since then have repeatedly and comprehensively voted against no deal. I think that this argument you keep mentioning around voting to invoke 50 and the default position is a flimsy one to be honest because that was made on the basis that we would have negotiated a deal before drfaulting and we couldn't start doing that until it was invoked anyway. So I dont really see it is a measure of intent other than to begin the process. You cant ignore everything that has happened since (even if many would like to!)
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2019 13:34:42 GMT
May's Treaty will be voted down again. What Parliament will do then is anyone's guess. The only way to 'put it to the people' is via a General Election, but that is the last thing either Tories or Labour want. Both parties have created a Fluster Cluck and now they don't know how to get out of it. Their heads have collectively disappeared up their arses. Maybe someone like Johnson or Rabb may come in and water off the EU so much that the EU refuse anymore extensions and kick us out! Personally, I don't think anything will change until a GE, which will change the numbers/personnel in Parliament. In the background, 498 MP's voted in favour of invoking Article 50.........................which is still the single, most positive vote regarding Brexit in Parliament. yes and since then have repeatedly and comprehensively voted against no deal. I think that this argument you keep mentioning around voting to invoke 50 and the default position is a flimsy one to be honest because that was made on the basis that we would have negotiated a deal before drfaulting and we couldn't start doing that until it was invoked anyway. So I dont really see it is a measure of intent other than to begin the process. You cant ignore everything that has happened since (even if many would like to!) Nobody expected such a sh1t deal It's not even close to being acceptable. Article 50, invoked by 498 MP's, only has two options. It became Law! Are you suggesting that Parliament didn't know what it was voting for?
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Post by Officer Barbrady on May 17, 2019 13:38:17 GMT
yes and since then have repeatedly and comprehensively voted against no deal. I think that this argument you keep mentioning around voting to invoke 50 and the default position is a flimsy one to be honest because that was made on the basis that we would have negotiated a deal before drfaulting and we couldn't start doing that until it was invoked anyway. So I dont really see it is a measure of intent other than to begin the process. You cant ignore everything that has happened since (even if many would like to!) Nobody expected such a sh1t deal It's not even close to being acceptable. Article 50, invoked by 498 MP's, only has two options. It became Law! Are you suggesting that Parliament didn't know what it was voting for? they voted to begin with withdrawal process. They also voted nobby against no deal. So when they voted to invoke was it so they could begin withdrawal or was it for no deal?
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2019 13:52:53 GMT
Nobody expected such a sh1t deal It's not even close to being acceptable. Article 50, invoked by 498 MP's, only has two options. It became Law! Are you suggesting that Parliament didn't know what it was voting for? they voted to begin with withdrawal process. They also voted nobby against no deal. So when they voted to invoke was it so they could begin withdrawal or was it for no deal? They voted into Law something that had only two options. One of those options is totally unworkable. Therefore, the default is the second option. Don't forget, Article 50 is an EU Instrument as defined in the legally binding Lisbon Treaty. Yes, it was a vote to begin the Withdrawal Process, but it also had a defined ending. The vote against No deal won by ONE vote. That vote was cast by an MP who has since been kicked out. She should never have been allowed to vote in the first place as she was convicted of 'perverting the course of justice'. At the time of the vote she was also breaking the law as it was outside her curfew time. THAT is corruption. 312 MP's voted for No Deal, yet 498 MP's voted for No Deal in effect by invoking Article 50! As I have said, they have voted in such a way that collectively they have their heads up their arses.
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Post by Officer Barbrady on May 17, 2019 14:08:04 GMT
they voted to begin with withdrawal process. They also voted nobby against no deal. So when they voted to invoke was it so they could begin withdrawal or was it for no deal? They voted into Law something that had only two options. One of those options is totally unworkable. Therefore, the default is the second option. Don't forget, Article 50 is an EU Instrument as defined in the legally binding Lisbon Treaty. Yes, it was a vote to begin the Withdrawal Process, but it also had a defined ending. The vote against No deal won by ONE vote. That vote was cast by an MP who has since been kicked out. She should never have been allowed to vote in the first place as she was convicted of 'perverting the course of justice'. At the time of the vote she was also breaking the law as it was outside her curfew time. THAT is corruption. 312 MP's voted for No Deal, yet 498 MP's voted for No Deal in effect by invoking Article 50! As I have said, they have voted in such a way that collectively they have their heads up their arses. There is something deeply ironic with listening to you argue that the majority of the vote was too short and that one shouldn't have counted anyway... They have since voted against no deal, for extensions which the EU has agreed. Twice. So it doesnt really matter what happened before then does it because we are where we are - there has been a more recent vote specifically on no deal and the EU have agreed extensions.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2019 14:10:15 GMT
The majority wanted to leave so if no deal is agreed then we do what the politicians said at outset and that the referendum result will be respected. We leave with no deal and all the time wasters will come to realise that is what we should have been prepared to do from day one and be better positioned to manage when exit day arrives. The referendum wasnt leave with no deal Eric as we have established that even though you personally did know this, all the media, vote leave campaign figurehead and other politicians did not and as such never talked about anything other than deals deals deals. I can't remember exactly what the ballot paper said but I think it was along the lines of do you want to leave the EU Yes or No. I don't recall an asterisk or brackets around "subject to our MP's, who don't want to leave and will do all they can to sabotage the process, agreeing a deal that everyone likes" The bottom line is that the majority want to leave the EU. We don't like it and want no part of it in the future. It cannot be scuppered by the crooked, incompetent saboteurs that masquerade as representative members of our parliament. Failure to follow through with brexit will be a disaster for democracy and allow sabotage to be the only reason for remaining a member state. How would our future relationship with the other EU states be affected when everyone knows we're only back due to blackmail? The minority who wanted to remain have fought from day one under any argument available, the most recent being this People's Vote bullshit, to try to overturn the democratic vote and get the outcome they wanted in the first place.
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Post by Officer Barbrady on May 17, 2019 14:18:35 GMT
The referendum wasnt leave with no deal Eric as we have established that even though you personally did know this, all the media, vote leave campaign figurehead and other politicians did not and as such never talked about anything other than deals deals deals. I can't remember exactly what the ballot paper said but I think it was along the lines of do you want to leave the EU Yes or No. I don't recall an asterisk or brackets around "subject to our MP's, who don't want to leave and will do all they can to sabotage the process, agreeing a deal that everyone likes" The bottom line is that the majority want to leave the EU. We don't like it and want no part of it in the future. It cannot be scuppered by the crooked, incompetent saboteurs that masquerade as representative members of our parliament. Failure to follow through with brexit will be a disaster for democracy and allow sabotage to be the only reason for remaining a member state. How would our future relationship with the other EU states be affected when everyone knows we're only back due to blackmail? The minority who wanted to remain have fought from day one under any argument available, the most recent being this People's Vote bullshit, to try to overturn the democratic vote and get the outcome they wanted in the first place. Just because you didnt foresee how complicated the negotiations would be or how damaging a no deal would be (which by the way is why it hasn't been done and why everyone except you of course was saying no deal scenario was project fear) doesnt mean it isnt fact. You are the exception to the rule remember, you alone knew this to be the case. You talk about democracy like you know what it means but I would suggest it isnt a single one time event and when anyone mentions going for a confirmatory vote you lose your mind. So you tell me Eric how much do you really believe in democracy? As for your remarks on remainers you are living in cloud cuckoo land. What have you done to bring remainers round to your way of thinking? Facts figures statistics? No. Just throwing out populist soundbites and not engaging with any real debate or challenge preferring instead to justify support in Nigel Farage. Expecting remainers to suddenly start believing in Brexit is absurd, particularly given all the promises have turned out to be lies and project fear turned out to be reality. Eric look, I dont know you and I'm sure in real life you're a nice bloke and we would get along just fine over a pint but honestly, on this thread, I am yet to see any substance to your claims.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2019 14:29:14 GMT
They voted into Law something that had only two options. One of those options is totally unworkable. Therefore, the default is the second option. Don't forget, Article 50 is an EU Instrument as defined in the legally binding Lisbon Treaty. Yes, it was a vote to begin the Withdrawal Process, but it also had a defined ending. The vote against No deal won by ONE vote. That vote was cast by an MP who has since been kicked out. She should never have been allowed to vote in the first place as she was convicted of 'perverting the course of justice'. At the time of the vote she was also breaking the law as it was outside her curfew time. THAT is corruption. 312 MP's voted for No Deal, yet 498 MP's voted for No Deal in effect by invoking Article 50! As I have said, they have voted in such a way that collectively they have their heads up their arses. There is something deeply ironic with listening to you argue that the majority of the vote was too short and that one shouldn't have counted anyway... They have since voted against no deal, for extensions which the EU has agreed. Twice. So it doesnt really matter what happened before then does it because we are where we are - there has been a more recent vote specifically on no deal and the EU have agreed extensions. The MP's won't ever agree on anything and will continue trying to scupper any form of brexit. That's why the past couple of years have been a complete waste of time. Those with constituencies with strong leave majorities should be hanging their heads in shame at the part they played in frustrating the process and denying democracy.
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Post by Officer Barbrady on May 17, 2019 14:30:22 GMT
There is something deeply ironic with listening to you argue that the majority of the vote was too short and that one shouldn't have counted anyway... They have since voted against no deal, for extensions which the EU has agreed. Twice. So it doesnt really matter what happened before then does it because we are where we are - there has been a more recent vote specifically on no deal and the EU have agreed extensions. The MP's won't ever agree on anything and will continue trying to scupper any form of brexit. That's why the past couple of years have been a complete waste of time. Those with constituencies with strong leave majorities should be hanging their heads in shame at the part they played in frustrating the process and denying democracy. this IS democracy. This is literally democracy.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2019 14:39:40 GMT
I can't remember exactly what the ballot paper said but I think it was along the lines of do you want to leave the EU Yes or No. I don't recall an asterisk or brackets around "subject to our MP's, who don't want to leave and will do all they can to sabotage the process, agreeing a deal that everyone likes" The bottom line is that the majority want to leave the EU. We don't like it and want no part of it in the future. It cannot be scuppered by the crooked, incompetent saboteurs that masquerade as representative members of our parliament. Failure to follow through with brexit will be a disaster for democracy and allow sabotage to be the only reason for remaining a member state. How would our future relationship with the other EU states be affected when everyone knows we're only back due to blackmail? The minority who wanted to remain have fought from day one under any argument available, the most recent being this People's Vote bullshit, to try to overturn the democratic vote and get the outcome they wanted in the first place. Just because you didnt foresee how complicated the negotiations would be or how damaging a no deal would be (which by the way is why it hasn't been done and why everyone except you of course was saying no deal scenario was project fear) doesnt mean it isnt fact. You are the exception to the rule remember, you alone knew this to be the case. You talk about democracy like you know what it means but I would suggest it isnt a single one time event and when anyone mentions going for a confirmatory vote you lose your mind. So you tell me Eric how much do you really believe in democracy? As for your remarks on remainers you are living in cloud cuckoo land. What have you done to bring remainers round to your way of thinking? Facts figures statistics? No. Just throwing out populist soundbites and not engaging with any real debate or challenge preferring instead to justify support in Nigel Farage. Expecting remainers to suddenly start believing in Brexit is absurd, particularly given all the promises have turned out to be lies and project fear turned out to be reality. Eric look, I dont know you and I'm sure in real life you're a nice bloke and we would get along just fine over a pint but honestly, on this thread, I am yet to see any substance to your claims. My idea of democracy is to respect a vote that had a clear Yes/No question. I don't think calling for another referendum, then another, then another to achieve a result you want is democratic. The public, all of whom have varying degrees of knowledge around trade, immigration, law etc, each have the right to vote and one vote each. There was a majority voting to leave and our politicians vowed to honour the result. It's not for me to put forward arguments to make remainers change their mind, what purpose does that serve anyone when we've had the once in a lifetime referendum? The failure of MP's is not a reason for the referendum result to be revoked. There is so much snobbery and abuse towards leave voters from those with a sense of intellectual superiority and no respect of their right to an opinion and vote.
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Post by Officer Barbrady on May 17, 2019 15:02:35 GMT
Just because you didnt foresee how complicated the negotiations would be or how damaging a no deal would be (which by the way is why it hasn't been done and why everyone except you of course was saying no deal scenario was project fear) doesnt mean it isnt fact. You are the exception to the rule remember, you alone knew this to be the case. You talk about democracy like you know what it means but I would suggest it isnt a single one time event and when anyone mentions going for a confirmatory vote you lose your mind. So you tell me Eric how much do you really believe in democracy? As for your remarks on remainers you are living in cloud cuckoo land. What have you done to bring remainers round to your way of thinking? Facts figures statistics? No. Just throwing out populist soundbites and not engaging with any real debate or challenge preferring instead to justify support in Nigel Farage. Expecting remainers to suddenly start believing in Brexit is absurd, particularly given all the promises have turned out to be lies and project fear turned out to be reality. Eric look, I dont know you and I'm sure in real life you're a nice bloke and we would get along just fine over a pint but honestly, on this thread, I am yet to see any substance to your claims. My idea of democracy is to respect a vote that had a clear Yes/No question. I don't think calling for another referendum, then another, then another to achieve a result you want is democratic. The public, all of whom have varying degrees of knowledge around trade, immigration, law etc, each have the right to vote and one vote each. There was a majority voting to leave and our politicians vowed to honour the result. It's not for me to put forward arguments to make remainers change their mind, what purpose does that serve anyone when we've had the once in a lifetime referendum? The failure of MP's is not a reason for the referendum result to be revoked. There is so much snobbery and abuse towards leave voters from those with a sense of intellectual superiority and no respect of their right to an opinion and vote. "The minority who wanted to remain have fought from day one under any argument available, the most recent being this People's Vote bullshit, to try to overturn the democratic vote and get the outcome they wanted in the first place." Snobbery and abuse towards leave voters.
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Post by aghast on May 17, 2019 21:17:45 GMT
I think the leave vote is just a distraction for our supposed leaders.
It's now all about who will win the next election and who will be the next party leaders.
If leaving helps them, we'll leave. If it doesn't, we won't.
I do agree with Nobby on the principle, if not the specific issue, that they are betraying a democratic vote.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2019 7:53:26 GMT
I think the leave vote is just a distraction for our supposed leaders. It's now all about who will win the next election and who will be the next party leaders. If leaving helps them, we'll leave. If it doesn't, we won't. I do agree with Nobby on the principle, if not the specific issue, that they are betraying a democratic vote. There us an issue with the legitimacy of not adhering to the result of 2016. But it is entirely legitimate to point out the Leave Campaign was based upon falsehoods and led by charlatans. As for the next election the dispute over Brexit is great cover for the Tories who, currently, are not being taken down for their policies and management since 2010. Plus, we have a Labour leader whose economic policies have failed for the past 100 years. Meanwhile, back at the food bank, or the waiting line for NHS services.....
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Post by stuart1974 on May 18, 2019 9:34:54 GMT
I see the World Health Organisation is likely to rule that gaming addiction is a disease.
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Post by South Stand Ultra on May 18, 2019 10:04:18 GMT
I think the leave vote is just a distraction for our supposed leaders. It's now all about who will win the next election and who will be the next party leaders. If leaving helps them, we'll leave. If it doesn't, we won't. I do agree with Nobby on the principle, if not the specific issue, that they are betraying a democratic vote. There us an issue with the legitimacy of not adhering to the result of 2016. But it is entirely legitimate to point out the Leave Campaign was based upon falsehoods and led by charlatans. As for the next election the dispute over Brexit is great cover for the Tories who, currently, are not being taken down for their policies and management since 2010. Plus, we have a Labour leader whose economic policies have failed for the past 100 years. Meanwhile, back at the food bank, or the waiting line for NHS services.....
"But it is entirely legitimate to point out the Leave Campaign was based upon falsehoods and led by charlatans."
As was the remain campaign.
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Post by baggins on May 18, 2019 10:08:35 GMT
I see the World Health Organisation is likely to rule that gaming addiction is a disease. Twist.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2019 10:35:14 GMT
There us an issue with the legitimacy of not adhering to the result of 2016. But it is entirely legitimate to point out the Leave Campaign was based upon falsehoods and led by charlatans. As for the next election the dispute over Brexit is great cover for the Tories who, currently, are not being taken down for their policies and management since 2010. Plus, we have a Labour leader whose economic policies have failed for the past 100 years. Meanwhile, back at the food bank, or the waiting line for NHS services.....
"But it is entirely legitimate to point out the Leave Campaign was based upon falsehoods and led by charlatans."
As was the remain campaign.
As we have done in terms of the claims made. In terms of Charlatans, there is no one who quite matches Farage, Johnson and Gove. I would add Liam Fox, the great negotiator, but he is just an idiot.
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Post by stuart1974 on May 18, 2019 11:40:07 GMT
I see the World Health Organisation is likely to rule that gaming addiction is a disease. Twist. Very good 😀 I did wonder if it was too subtle.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2019 15:17:46 GMT
Very good 😀 I did wonder if it was too subtle. Less subtle from the Brexit Party
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