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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2020 10:46:30 GMT
There is poor contract management and there is a player simply not wanting to sign Even if we could offer Lockyer £10k a week, if he doesn't want to sign a contract you can't make him. He wanted to move on to try and plat at a higher lever and improve his international chances. I don't know who or if TL had/has an agent and I am sure TL was bright enough to know he was a better investment (or gamble) for a club as a free agent and he would get the wages as well as the potential opportunity Can Rovers have been better with contracts? Yes, but you can't blame them for everything. Surprisingly, people have minds of their own Sure, but the point is sorting it out before we get to that point. DC said with Brown that he thought he was coming in for a contract extension. The club were surprised by Lockyer's decision on the last day of the season. Because we left it too late, we got £0 for both of them. Taylor was given a contract presumably when we got promoted from L2 like everyone else? Why was it only a year?! If he signed one before L2 promotion, we should have been looking to extend his contract earlier as we knew we would want to keep him. Bodin we can probably say fair enough (within reason) as the club opened talks in September, but he said no. Although I've heard that was DC's fault because he wouldn't offer him over £2.5k a week or something, but unsure how true that is - either way, it happened at the club and we're responsible for it. I actually am impressed that for once, we tried extending JCH's contract before having less than a year left - we're actually learning from our mistakes, finally! If the bloke says no, then sell him and get our face value. If we start our contract talks earlier then we at least know where we stand and can make better strategic decision making on players. I would suspect we never had a bid for Lockyer, if we did he’d have been sold surely? Can’t sell what nobody is trying to buy
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Post by peterparker on Jan 27, 2020 10:55:12 GMT
Sure, but the point is sorting it out before we get to that point. DC said with Brown that he thought he was coming in for a contract extension. The club were surprised by Lockyer's decision on the last day of the season. Because we left it too late, we got £0 for both of them. Taylor was given a contract presumably when we got promoted from L2 like everyone else? Why was it only a year?! If he signed one before L2 promotion, we should have been looking to extend his contract earlier as we knew we would want to keep him. Bodin we can probably say fair enough (within reason) as the club opened talks in September, but he said no. Although I've heard that was DC's fault because he wouldn't offer him over £2.5k a week or something, but unsure how true that is - either way, it happened at the club and we're responsible for it. I actually am impressed that for once, we tried extending JCH's contract before having less than a year left - we're actually learning from our mistakes, finally! If the bloke says no, then sell him and get our face value. If we start our contract talks earlier then we at least know where we stand and can make better strategic decision making on players. I would suspect we never had a bid for Lockyer, if we did he’d have been sold surely? Can’t sell what nobody is trying to buy exactly it's all part of the 'game'
People say tie up players, but then moan when we can't get rid
Players and agents will use other clubs for leverage, and clubs will 'shaft' a player if they can.
People think it's black and white.
Clubs know if other clubs are sniffing around their players. It's not like we heard of loads of interest in Lockyer. People were speculating he might not even end up in the championship when he was out of contract. How can you judge a players worth on that.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2020 10:55:21 GMT
There is poor contract management and there is a player simply not wanting to sign Even if we could offer Lockyer £10k a week, if he doesn't want to sign a contract you can't make him. He wanted to move on to try and plat at a higher lever and improve his international chances. I don't know who or if TL had/has an agent and I am sure TL was bright enough to know he was a better investment (or gamble) for a club as a free agent and he would get the wages as well as the potential opportunity Can Rovers have been better with contracts? Yes, but you can't blame them for everything. Surprisingly, people have minds of their own Sure, but the point is sorting it out before we get to that point. DC said with Brown that he thought he was coming in for a contract extension. The club were surprised by Lockyer's decision on the last day of the season. Because we left it too late, we got £0 for both of them. Taylor was given a contract presumably when we got promoted from L2 like everyone else? Why was it only a year?! If he signed one before L2 promotion, we should have been looking to extend his contract earlier as we knew we would want to keep him. Bodin we can probably say fair enough (within reason) as the club opened talks in September, but he said no. Although I've heard that was DC's fault because he wouldn't offer him over £2.5k a week or something, but unsure how true that is - either way, it happened at the club and we're responsible for it. I actually am impressed that for once, we tried extending JCH's contract before having less than a year left - we're actually learning from our mistakes, finally! If the bloke says no, then sell him and get our face value. If we start our contract talks earlier then we at least know where we stand and can make better strategic decision making on players. Do you really think that the club let Lockyer’s contract run down without making him an offer? A far more likely explanation is that Lockyer had made his mind up quite a long time earlier that he wanted to try his luck at a higher level. He’s an intelligent bloke and will have known running his contract down would give him more options and better salary/signing on fee at his new club. There is little or nothing a club can do to stop a player with these intentions.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2020 10:56:31 GMT
Sure, but the point is sorting it out before we get to that point. DC said with Brown that he thought he was coming in for a contract extension. The club were surprised by Lockyer's decision on the last day of the season. Because we left it too late, we got £0 for both of them. Taylor was given a contract presumably when we got promoted from L2 like everyone else? Why was it only a year?! If he signed one before L2 promotion, we should have been looking to extend his contract earlier as we knew we would want to keep him. Bodin we can probably say fair enough (within reason) as the club opened talks in September, but he said no. Although I've heard that was DC's fault because he wouldn't offer him over £2.5k a week or something, but unsure how true that is - either way, it happened at the club and we're responsible for it. I actually am impressed that for once, we tried extending JCH's contract before having less than a year left - we're actually learning from our mistakes, finally! If the bloke says no, then sell him and get our face value. If we start our contract talks earlier then we at least know where we stand and can make better strategic decision making on players. I would suspect we never had a bid for Lockyer, if we did he’d have been sold surely? Can’t sell what nobody is trying to buy You also can’t sell a player who doesn’t want to be sold.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2020 10:57:42 GMT
I would suspect we never had a bid for Lockyer, if we did he’d have been sold surely? Can’t sell what nobody is trying to buy You also can’t sell a player who doesn’t want to be sold. His comments on the radio about how he should have left earlier didn’t sit right with me, all water under the bridge now though.
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Post by Gassy on Jan 27, 2020 11:01:26 GMT
Sure, but the point is sorting it out before we get to that point. DC said with Brown that he thought he was coming in for a contract extension. The club were surprised by Lockyer's decision on the last day of the season. Because we left it too late, we got £0 for both of them. Taylor was given a contract presumably when we got promoted from L2 like everyone else? Why was it only a year?! If he signed one before L2 promotion, we should have been looking to extend his contract earlier as we knew we would want to keep him. Bodin we can probably say fair enough (within reason) as the club opened talks in September, but he said no. Although I've heard that was DC's fault because he wouldn't offer him over £2.5k a week or something, but unsure how true that is - either way, it happened at the club and we're responsible for it. I actually am impressed that for once, we tried extending JCH's contract before having less than a year left - we're actually learning from our mistakes, finally! If the bloke says no, then sell him and get our face value. If we start our contract talks earlier then we at least know where we stand and can make better strategic decision making on players. I would suspect we never had a bid for Lockyer, if we did he’d have been sold surely? Can’t sell what nobody is trying to buy You can place people on transfer lists or you can let other clubs know on the down low that he's available. If no one makes a bid, then fine. But ultimately we didn't allow ourselves to get into that position in the first place, that's what needs improving.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2020 11:02:54 GMT
You also can’t sell a player who doesn’t want to be sold. His comments on the radio about how he should have left earlier didn’t sit right with me, all water under the bridge now though. I think from a career perspective he probably should have left earlier, he would have been very conscious of being the only League One player in the Wales squad and that must have held him back to some degree. From a financial perspective he did the right thing and in his shoes I’d have done exactly the same! Anyway, water under the bridge like you say. I’m glad he’s doing well and we’ve done ok with Davies coming in and the emergence of Kilgour.
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Post by Gassy on Jan 27, 2020 11:07:34 GMT
Sure, but the point is sorting it out before we get to that point. DC said with Brown that he thought he was coming in for a contract extension. The club were surprised by Lockyer's decision on the last day of the season. Because we left it too late, we got £0 for both of them. Taylor was given a contract presumably when we got promoted from L2 like everyone else? Why was it only a year?! If he signed one before L2 promotion, we should have been looking to extend his contract earlier as we knew we would want to keep him. Bodin we can probably say fair enough (within reason) as the club opened talks in September, but he said no. Although I've heard that was DC's fault because he wouldn't offer him over £2.5k a week or something, but unsure how true that is - either way, it happened at the club and we're responsible for it. I actually am impressed that for once, we tried extending JCH's contract before having less than a year left - we're actually learning from our mistakes, finally! If the bloke says no, then sell him and get our face value. If we start our contract talks earlier then we at least know where we stand and can make better strategic decision making on players. Do you really think that the club let Lockyer’s contract run down without making him an offer? A far more likely explanation is that Lockyer had made his mind up quite a long time earlier that he wanted to try his luck at a higher level. He’s an intelligent bloke and will have known running his contract down would give him more options and better salary/signing on fee at his new club. There is little or nothing a club can do to stop a player with these intentions. I believe they would have made an offer too late. We didn't deal with any contracts that season until the summer, so why would I believe we suddenly came up with something special for Lockyer? Also, you don't think Lockyer would have wanted to be sold? So in that case, he just wanted to screw us. If we made him available to other clubs and a bid came in from above, you think Lockyer would have said "no, I'm not going to allow me to be sold. I'd rather go for free so you don't get any money". If a bid came in, he likely would have gone. Ultimately, if you're happy with how we dealt with contracts on Lockyer, Brown, Taylor & Bodin then be my guest. I'm saying we should have done more. Coughlan himself said that on radio that we need to improve.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2020 11:29:52 GMT
Do you really think that the club let Lockyer’s contract run down without making him an offer? A far more likely explanation is that Lockyer had made his mind up quite a long time earlier that he wanted to try his luck at a higher level. He’s an intelligent bloke and will have known running his contract down would give him more options and better salary/signing on fee at his new club. There is little or nothing a club can do to stop a player with these intentions. I believe they would have made an offer too late. We didn't deal with any contracts that season until the summer, so why would I believe we suddenly came up with something special for Lockyer? Also, you don't think Lockyer would have wanted to be sold? So in that case, he just wanted to screw us. If we made him available to other clubs and a bid came in from above, you think Lockyer would have said "no, I'm not going to allow me to be sold. I'd rather go for free so you don't get any money". If a bid came in, he likely would have gone. Ultimately, if you're happy with how we dealt with contracts on Lockyer, Brown, Taylor & Bodin then be my guest. I'm saying we should have done more. Coughlan himself said that on radio that we need to improve. Two things. Lockyer wouldn’t have allowed himself to be sold to someone he didn’t want to join, whether that’s because of location, league position of the club or the level of wages they were offering. We seem to forget sometimes that footballers are human being and not a commodity on a computer game. i don’t think Lockyer’s motivation would have been to screw us from getting a fee (for a player we paid nothing for ourselves btw), it is a consequence of the transfer system post Bosman and of a player rightly looking to do what is in the best interest of him and his family from both a career and financial perspective.
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Post by Gassy on Jan 27, 2020 11:38:44 GMT
I believe they would have made an offer too late. We didn't deal with any contracts that season until the summer, so why would I believe we suddenly came up with something special for Lockyer? Also, you don't think Lockyer would have wanted to be sold? So in that case, he just wanted to screw us. If we made him available to other clubs and a bid came in from above, you think Lockyer would have said "no, I'm not going to allow me to be sold. I'd rather go for free so you don't get any money". If a bid came in, he likely would have gone. Ultimately, if you're happy with how we dealt with contracts on Lockyer, Brown, Taylor & Bodin then be my guest. I'm saying we should have done more. Coughlan himself said that on radio that we need to improve. Two things. Lockyer wouldn’t have allowed himself to be sold to someone he didn’t want to join, whether that’s because of location, league position of the club or the level of wages they were offering. We seem to forget sometimes that footballers are human being and not a commodity on a computer game. i don’t think Lockyer’s motivation would have been to screw us from getting a fee (for a player we paid nothing for ourselves btw), it is a consequence of the transfer system post Bosman and of a player rightly looking to do what is in the best interest of him and his family from both a career and financial perspective. We signed him when he was 16 under a scholarship because Cardiff didn't think he was good enough/big enough to make it as a CB... But if you're happy with letting one of our biggest assets (£1m+) go for free because we signed them for free, then good luck to you. I am not happy with it. We lose £3m a year without buying players like Nichols & Mensah. How else will we survive if we didn't sell players? It's not a good transfer policy to say the least! If all of your scenarios you've created here were true, then I'd say fair enough - but I don't believe it, it's all ifs and buts. Do you honestly think we offered him a contract and he said no, upon hearing his rejection we tried to move him on and he still said no, so we were stuck with him and lost him on a free?
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Post by peterparker on Jan 27, 2020 12:12:19 GMT
Two things. Lockyer wouldn’t have allowed himself to be sold to someone he didn’t want to join, whether that’s because of location, league position of the club or the level of wages they were offering. We seem to forget sometimes that footballers are human being and not a commodity on a computer game. i don’t think Lockyer’s motivation would have been to screw us from getting a fee (for a player we paid nothing for ourselves btw), it is a consequence of the transfer system post Bosman and of a player rightly looking to do what is in the best interest of him and his family from both a career and financial perspective. We signed him when he was 16 under a scholarship because Cardiff didn't think he was good enough/big enough to make it as a CB... But if you're happy with letting one of our biggest assets (£1m+) go for free because we signed them for free, then good luck to you. I am not happy with it. We lose £3m a year without buying players like Nichols & Mensah. How else will we survive if we didn't sell players? It's not a good transfer policy to say the least! If all of your scenarios you've created here were true, then I'd say fair enough - but I don't believe it, it's all ifs and buts. Do you honestly think we offered him a contract and he said no, upon hearing his rejection we tried to move him on and he still said no, so we were stuck with him and lost him on a free? If we had sold him in January for £100k. People would have moaned about that.
Maybe all contracts should only have a max of 2 years to run at any point in time. Maybe that will cut out the arguments about players being stuck on long contracts or too short a contract
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2020 12:14:57 GMT
Two things. Lockyer wouldn’t have allowed himself to be sold to someone he didn’t want to join, whether that’s because of location, league position of the club or the level of wages they were offering. We seem to forget sometimes that footballers are human being and not a commodity on a computer game. i don’t think Lockyer’s motivation would have been to screw us from getting a fee (for a player we paid nothing for ourselves btw), it is a consequence of the transfer system post Bosman and of a player rightly looking to do what is in the best interest of him and his family from both a career and financial perspective. We signed him when he was 16 under a scholarship because Cardiff didn't think he was good enough/big enough to make it as a CB... But if you're happy with letting one of our biggest assets (£1m+) go for free because we signed them for free, then good luck to you. I am not happy with it. We lose £3m a year without buying players like Nichols & Mensah. How else will we survive if we didn't sell players? It's not a good transfer policy to say the least! If all of your scenarios you've created here were true, then I'd say fair enough - but I don't believe it, it's all ifs and buts. Do you honestly think we offered him a contract and he said no, upon hearing his rejection we tried to move him on and he still said no, so we were stuck with him and lost him on a free? I’m not happy with it either but I’m not going to get my knickers in a twist over it. It’s part of the game, it will happen to us again in the future as it will to every club. We’d have been quite happy to have signed a Curtis Nelson, a Pugh or Danny Mayor on a free transfer when they allowed their contract to expire - we can benefit as well as feeling hard done by the system. It’s been going on for years and if a player is happy to risk letting their contracts run down there is little a club can do about it - I don’t recall Liverpool fans being happy years ago when losing Steve McManaman or Spurs fans being happy when they lost Sol Campbell. Fans just have to accept it. I honestly expect that Rovers offered a deal but he probably long decided he was not going to re sign for us. If we tried to sell and a club he fancied came in then he would probably have gone for a fee. There were either no offers made or clubs knew his contract situation and waited until the summer
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Post by Gassy on Jan 27, 2020 12:23:04 GMT
We signed him when he was 16 under a scholarship because Cardiff didn't think he was good enough/big enough to make it as a CB... But if you're happy with letting one of our biggest assets (£1m+) go for free because we signed them for free, then good luck to you. I am not happy with it. We lose £3m a year without buying players like Nichols & Mensah. How else will we survive if we didn't sell players? It's not a good transfer policy to say the least! If all of your scenarios you've created here were true, then I'd say fair enough - but I don't believe it, it's all ifs and buts. Do you honestly think we offered him a contract and he said no, upon hearing his rejection we tried to move him on and he still said no, so we were stuck with him and lost him on a free? If we had sold him in January for £100k. People would have moaned about that.
Maybe all contracts should only have a max of 2 years to run at any point in time. Maybe that will cut out the arguments about players being stuck on long contracts or too short a contract
Again, a made up scenario. Why would we sell him for £100k when Bodin sold at the same time for £450k? If you just want to keep making up scenarios for your argument then hey, why didn't we sell him for £5m? This is much easier to do! Clearly you're not understanding my point. I am saying that we needed to improve our contract handling so we can make better decisions. Again, I'll explain in more detail.. If we had better handling of contracts then we could have offered Tom an extension whilst we still had some sort of power. If he said no, then we can sell him on. People are forgetting that in the last 6 months of your contract you're free to talk to clubs anyway, so we a completely powerless at this point. If we can't sell him on then we know that he's going and we can plan accordingly. If we can sell him on for a good price, then great. If we can't get a good price, then we need to make a strategic decision on whether we'll let him go for free or try to recoup any money and reinvest it via loan, transfer or summer budgets. We might lose them for free, but at least we can plan accordingly and make better decisions. Instead, the club were surprised Tom was going to leave, so clearly we hadn't done any of these things. GC admitted himself we needed to improve contracts, but for some reason you want to create made up scenarios that make it out like we did everything possible. Do you really think we did? But as I've said, it seems like we've improved our contracts since then. So at least we're learning from our mistakes - which is the important thing.
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Post by Gassy on Jan 27, 2020 12:26:51 GMT
We signed him when he was 16 under a scholarship because Cardiff didn't think he was good enough/big enough to make it as a CB... But if you're happy with letting one of our biggest assets (£1m+) go for free because we signed them for free, then good luck to you. I am not happy with it. We lose £3m a year without buying players like Nichols & Mensah. How else will we survive if we didn't sell players? It's not a good transfer policy to say the least! If all of your scenarios you've created here were true, then I'd say fair enough - but I don't believe it, it's all ifs and buts. Do you honestly think we offered him a contract and he said no, upon hearing his rejection we tried to move him on and he still said no, so we were stuck with him and lost him on a free? I’m not happy with it either but I’m not going to get my knickers in a twist over it. It’s part of the game, it will happen to us again in the future as it will to every club. We’d have been quite happy to have signed a Curtis Nelson, a Pugh or Danny Mayor on a free transfer when they allowed their contract to expire - we can benefit as well as feeling hard done by the system. It’s been going on for years and if a player is happy to risk letting their contracts run down there is little a club can do about it - I don’t recall Liverpool fans being happy years ago when losing Steve McManaman or Spurs fans being happy when they lost Sol Campbell. Fans just have to accept it. I honestly expect that Rovers offered a deal but he probably long decided he was not going to re sign for us. If we tried to sell and a club he fancied came in then he would probably have gone for a fee. There were either no offers made or clubs knew his contract situation and waited until the summer Who's nickers are in a twist? It's part of the game, yes. But does that mean we should be sh*t at playing the game? Or should we actually try to do better? I want the best for BRFC and I don't see how poorly handling contracts and letting our assets go for free is the best for BRFC. The fact you try to compare us to Spurs unfortunately shows that you're really not getting it. Do we have hundreds of millions? Can our owners continue to write off hundreds of millions?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2020 12:48:56 GMT
I’m not happy with it either but I’m not going to get my knickers in a twist over it. It’s part of the game, it will happen to us again in the future as it will to every club. We’d have been quite happy to have signed a Curtis Nelson, a Pugh or Danny Mayor on a free transfer when they allowed their contract to expire - we can benefit as well as feeling hard done by the system. It’s been going on for years and if a player is happy to risk letting their contracts run down there is little a club can do about it - I don’t recall Liverpool fans being happy years ago when losing Steve McManaman or Spurs fans being happy when they lost Sol Campbell. Fans just have to accept it. I honestly expect that Rovers offered a deal but he probably long decided he was not going to re sign for us. If we tried to sell and a club he fancied came in then he would probably have gone for a fee. There were either no offers made or clubs knew his contract situation and waited until the summer Who's nickers are in a twist? It's part of the game, yes. But does that mean we should be sh*t at playing the game? Or should we actually try to do better? I want the best for BRFC and I don't see how poorly handling contracts and letting our assets go for free is the best for BRFC. The fact you try to compare us to Spurs unfortunately shows that you're really not getting it. Do we have hundreds of millions? Can our owners continue to write off hundreds of millions? I do get it thank you - mentioning Spurs was just showing that the same contract issues affect every level of professional football and even the most powerful clubs with the best negotiators and lawyers lose out too. Are we any worse than other clubs at our level? If you want an example at our level to “show that I get it” do you remember Lyle Taylor left Wimbledon on a free to go to Charlton?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2020 12:58:06 GMT
Regarding contracts i think the consecutive promotions played a part in our woes. We went from a league where players are usually on 1 year deals and getting about £800pw to league one where 3 year deals and 3k per week was normal.
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Post by Topper Gas on Jan 27, 2020 13:20:15 GMT
Regarding contracts i think the consecutive promotions played a part in our woes. We went from a league where players are usually on 1 year deals and getting about £800pw to league one where 3 year deals and 3k per week was normal. I don't really understand how a manager/coaches who works with the same players every day can't spot the good from the bad, even I could do that when coaching kids, surely the likes of MT & BB warranted better contract offers and how did we let Bola leave w/o offering him a contract. Psoh & Oxford seem to make a killing on transfer so far the maximum we've managed recently is £750K for Harrison.
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Post by peterparker on Jan 27, 2020 13:24:06 GMT
Regarding contracts i think the consecutive promotions played a part in our woes. We went from a league where players are usually on 1 year deals and getting about £800pw to league one where 3 year deals and 3k per week was normal. I don't really understand how a manager/coaches who works with the same players every day can't spot the good from the bad, even I could do that when coaching kids, surely the likes of MT & BB warranted better contract offers and how did we let Bola leave w/o offering him a contract. Psoh & Oxford seem to make a killing on transfer so far the maximum we've managed recently is £750K for Harrison. yeah but based on what Ellis has done now, that £750k doesn't look that bad does it? Let's not forget he is a player a load of fans would have released every season for 4 or 5 years for not being good enough
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Post by stevek192 on Jan 27, 2020 13:33:32 GMT
Gassy, You talk as if you understand the system but you obviously don't. Remember firstly and which is most important- Lockyer had been with the club a very long time- longer than most. So he had obviously signed a fair few contracts. The system very much favours the Big Clubs who have money to burn and offer long contracts. You are very much blaming the club on contract nego9tiations but look at it the other way and lets look at Bennett and Nichols both who could have been signed with the Matty Taylor situation in mind but of co9urse people are looking at those as being ridiculous because now the club is held to ransom p0articularly by Bennett. They cannot win but get this into your mind- the club gave Tom Lockyer quite a few increased contracts and there is no way that they didn't try to extend his contract further but the player decided he was going to let his contract run down. Tom knew that his Welsh Squad presence would ensure that he could find a club without much trouble and I expect his agent as well would have said to him not to sign another contract. We are not the only club to lose out in this way and Gillingham and Tom Eaves is a fine example where they lost him for nothing. It is very easy for us to sit behind keyboards and criticise the club WITHOUT knowing the facts only the outcome. The people to blame in all this are the ones who bri8ng in rules that favour the big clubs all the time.
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Post by warehamgas on Jan 27, 2020 13:52:59 GMT
these names just roll off the tongue, don't they ? Hundreds of games experience too ! All quality. I guess the appointment of BG will make many of these “younger” players a greater possibility for us. It certainly looks like BG is intending to develop us through younger, less experienced players. Perhaps he’s been told he has time to develop a different style and his shopping list may be more similar to players you’ve identified than GC was ever going to. His dilemma will be getting enough wins to buy him time to do this. I’m sure he’ll do that but patience will be needed. UTG!
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