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Post by Gas Go Marching In on Oct 24, 2020 19:49:45 GMT
Forgetting Sheff Weds, the 3 that went up last season are in the bottom 6. The season before all 3 clubs (Luton, Barnsley and Charlton) were all close to going down (only Charlton did in the end).
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Post by Gas Go Marching In on Oct 24, 2020 19:50:29 GMT
Yea sheff Utd have found the gap too big between L1 and champ They are more of an anomaly though rather than a trend.
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Post by axegas on Oct 24, 2020 19:54:22 GMT
Yea sheff Utd have found the gap too big between L1 and champ Sheffield United are a massive club, they averaged 20,000 in League One and had top 10 Championship average attendances. Easier to compete in the Championship when you have a good sized wage budget for that division to start off with.
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Post by yattongas on Oct 24, 2020 20:06:11 GMT
I hate it when people sit on the fence with their opinions.....🤪 Sorry about that, I never could make a decision. The 2 biggest things that rile me are - 1) Sh1!heads 2) Wycombe. Ooh sorry there’s a 3rd - running out of Stella, actually that’s probably number 1. SAN Miguel is nice Marshy 👍
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Post by oldgas on Oct 24, 2020 20:16:02 GMT
On the contrary, I believe those totals have been beaten every season since!
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Post by francegas on Oct 24, 2020 21:11:23 GMT
Rotherham were relegated in 2016/17 on 23 points. Not sure if that's the lowest but must be one of the lowest points achieved. I remember in the early 80’s the year the we had to finish the season at trashton because some lady gardens burnt our stand down. We finished bottom of the then championship and the sh** finished 2nd bottom and obviously we both went down! Did we even have 23 points between us? 😂 I remember the gas crowds at trashton averaged around 1500, not surprising really, the place reeked of sh**. 1980/81 season. We were relegated on 23 points, the other lot relegated on 30.
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Post by francegas on Oct 24, 2020 21:19:07 GMT
I remember in the early 80’s the year the we had to finish the season at trashton because some lady gardens burnt our stand down. We finished bottom of the then championship and the sh** finished 2nd bottom and obviously we both went down! Did we even have 23 points between us? 😂 I remember the gas crowds at trashton averaged around 1500, not surprising really, the place reeked of sh**. 1980/81 season. We were relegated on 23 points, the other lot relegated on 30. There's another one for any statto out there. How many times have two clubs from the same city been relegated from the same division in the same season.
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Post by warehamgas on Oct 24, 2020 21:21:00 GMT
Looking at the Championship this season, Wycombe have now lost their opening 7 and have a -13 goal difference. Is the gap between league 1 and the championship the hardest to overcome and how do we feel about our chances should we manage to get there? With the wages now needed to compete we would need to see increased revenue via a new stadium, or be focused on developing a squad that have been together and know a designated system of play. It seems to me that the way forward is slowly concentrate on the infrastructure of the club and it’s academy and this I feel is the right way to progress. I’d love to see us in the Championship but am happy to be better prepared rather than being humiliated every week. I can see Wycombe having the lowest point return ever this season, any statto know what that tally is? In summary, would we be better placed in say 2/3 seasons than going up before ready? Or is it take promotion any time? I love your planned approach to promotion Kampuchea but I just think you can’t say let’s get promotion in 2/3 years when we’re ready. It doesn’t work like that though I understand your reasoning. You have to take the chance when it comes. Perhaps it wouldn’t have come along again for Wycombe, perhaps they’d have been fighting relegation this year if they stayed down. So I hope we go up this year because the chance may not come again for a generation, not that I think we will. It’s enough for me that will be competing for a top half place. And hopefully get better next year. I think that we’re building so I think we can build a top half table team and hope that we get better but I’d take the chance when it occurs, whenever that is. I remember our 73/74 promotion. Megson put his plans into operation over the two years before. He got Bannister, Warboys earlier then got Jim Eadie in Spring 73. He only added Jacobs, Green and Dobson in the Summer of 73 if I remember correctly. Parsons, Taylor, Stanton, Prince and Kenny Stephens had been there much longer. He was able to build gradually because the gap between wages wasn’t that great. Gerry in 89/90 was a bit similar. Players didn’t feel the need to move up and get more, more, more. And players were still held in contracts. It’s changed massively now. Managers then could do that, now they can’t. Football has changed. The big difference now is freedom of contract. Jean Luc Bosman, blew team building over a number of years out of the water. Now players have the biggest say. Let’s say we had a good season now, finished 5th but missed out in the play-offs. The players obviously did well but with them being on 2 or 3 year contracts longest, they would want to move on immediately and our best players would be picked off by other clubs, Championship or other bigger League 1 clubs. Other teams would come in, we’d sell so not to lose them for nothing and have to rebuild the team. I’ve no problem with that but I think it would happen. And that’s why I don’t think you can plan for promotion in 2/3 years, go for it now. If we were in the Championship we would stand a chance of keeping them by offering new vastly improved contracts. There is a massive gap now and I think Oxford would have done better than Wycombe because they are a better team but they cocked up in the final. Wycombe have played safe by not spending much money or appearing to improve what they've got. But because of that they have shown little ambition, no faith and will be down by Christmas so it’s just as well no fans will see it. Build gradually and try and improve every year but take every chance of promotion that comes your way, football has a nasty habit of kicking you up the **** if you think you can plan for these things. UTG!
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Post by warehamgas on Oct 24, 2020 21:24:04 GMT
1980/81 season. We were relegated on 23 points, the other lot relegated on 30. There's another one for any statto out there. How many times have two clubs from the same city been relegated from the same division in the same season. Yes, the same as 89/90 when two clubs from the same city winning promotion. The best team obviously winning the Championship. I wonder when that happened in the same two-club city. UTG!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2020 21:30:49 GMT
Yea sheff Utd have found the gap too big between L1 and champ They are more of an anomaly though rather than a trend. They are a big club, their proper home is championship/prem The issue here is how do clubs that don’t have the the big stadium like Sheffield United bridge the gap.
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Post by gaelgas on Oct 24, 2020 22:14:03 GMT
There's another one for any statto out there. How many times have two clubs from the same city been relegated from the same division in the same season. Yes, the same as 89/90 when two clubs from the same city winning promotion. The best team obviously winning the Championship. I wonder when that happened in the same two-club city. UTG! One reason is with most of the other 2 team cities at least one of their teams has been in the top flight most of the time so can't get promoted. Both Liverpool teams and both Manchester teams are in the top six for years in the top flight and Aston Villa are second on the list behind Everton.
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Post by yaz on Oct 24, 2020 22:57:05 GMT
The football league is very much a reflection of modern society at the moment. It can’t be ignored that there are parallels in terms of declining social mobility amongst the population and an ever increasing wealth gap in the football league and it’s most evident between league one and the championship. Without wanting to turn this into a political thread it’s simply the inevitable outcome when free market capitalism runs rampant and the money does not trickle down effectively. Those with the wealth will use their spending power to cemente their position and that is what is happening. How long before the football league becomes a close shop from the championship up to try and keep our teams that dilute the quality of it’s product (ie Wycombe). I’m sure the chairman of the championship have got their fingers crossed season after season that Sunderland make a comeback, failing that, Hull, Ipswich or Portsmouth at a push. The last thing they want is Fleetwood or Accrington blagging a promotion. The playing field is as uneven as it’s ever been. I generally agree with the tone of the above but believe it's much more than this. Society as a whole has become very selfish, only interested in itself and not too bothered about its effects. The individuals of this society are slowly becoming this way, globally. Whether society leads and individuals follow or vice-versa is neither here nor there. If we look at the world around us, the environment that we, with the wisdom of thousands of years and the rapid advances of technology, have created that is causing so much harm to it, and similarly to the populations, current or future, that will have to live with the consequences is unthinkable. Capitalism is a dream that may be realised by some but for a lot, it probably still stays as a dream while for the vast majority it becomes a living nightmare? Whether there are any better economic systems is another question. Democracy and freedom comes with responsibilities. When tied together with capitalism, freedom for one may mean modern slavery, poverty, deprivation, desperation, etc. for millions of other peoples. Of course, in any society, there are people who will go out of their way to help others and to try and protect and preserve the world for the future. But these largely tend to be individuals without any real power to change things on a global scale? There are massive gaps between the haves and the have nots. I am not exactly sure about the correctness of the data but I think somewhere along the lines of <1% of the world population own more than 90% of the world wealth whether it be in terms of money, land, etc. So is there a gap between the Premier / Championship and the rest of the leagues, ie. L1, L2, Conference, etc.? Who would you class as being in the minority haves? Who is to say that a corporate or oil rich baron may not come along and bankroll a lower league club into a "have"? I think football in this country over the last 2 decades has become a "capitalist" sport and will use similar means to ensure that a few control the rest and act as feeders or be subservient to them? What do I mean by this? Capitalist countries have large defence networks; armies, air forces, navies, bases everywhere and coalitions with each other to enforce their priorities and needs upon the others. They will put constraints and restrictions on others so that they can probably never be in a position to challenge their superiority. Similarly, clubs trying to propose a European Super League are using the power they have, especially when others are weakened, to consolidate themselves so that they stay entrenched in their positions, ie. no relegation, lower leagues act as as feeders or as training grounds for their reserve "troops", etc. It is very hard to escape this kind of stranglehold unless you join this elite. Countries like China and India have largely been doing that in order to not only survive and progress but have not counted the future cost. Maybe they may not pay but others probably will. And these countries for centuries were fighting against the evils of colonialism and capitalism. So if the system cannot be changed (or overthrown), the only way that L1 clubs can escape to the "promised" world and survive there is to become like them? Of course, there will always be exceptions like Bournemouth, Yeovil, Bradford, Wigan, etc. but sooner or later they will fall by the wayside. So do we want to get there and will we survive? I think most people want a taste of this dream and make it into a reality. I, being selfish, want us to get promoted to the Championship and better. It would be nice to play these teams, just like it would be nice for lots of people to have a nice house, car, holidays, etc. and enjoy our visits to them. Compared to most L1 clubs, we may now be in a better position to survive. The only stumbling block may be having an appropriate ground / stadium but we as a club can endure this like we have done for so many decades. Bournemouth survived for so long by having a 10K seater stadium. Clubs like Wycombe have got there because of some extraordinary luck in L2 and L1. They are also "helped" because they are a London club and get greater media coverage. The "eulogisation" of their manager and club by the media is unbelievable; can you imagine Yeovil, Exeter, Newport, etc. getting the same favourable coverage if they did the same? Forest Green and Cheltenham have different aspects in their favour that make them a bit more unique but I can see all these West Country clubs progressing up the leagues. 4 of the top 5 in L2 today are West Country; this was very much the case last year as well. Brentford have had good coverage because they play attractive football, now have a good stadium, have grown within their means but also have the London factor going for them. As for the elite, I think the pre-season favourites of Liverpool and Man City are going to find it much tougher this season than they think. The only way to protect football in this country is to get rid of the system and replace it with a better system that caters and cares for the majority of its members without destroying the game or the clubs or the quality of football being played. Quality is a subjective ideal; loyal fans will go and watch irrespective? Is regulation an answer; can the state protect? I doubt it? Maybe there are no answers? As regards Wycombe, they may have lost 7 out of 7 but most of them have been by very close margins?
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Post by yaz on Oct 24, 2020 23:24:19 GMT
Yea sheff Utd have found the gap too big between L1 and champ Sheffield United are a massive club, they averaged 20,000 in League One and had top 10 Championship average attendances. Easier to compete in the Championship when you have a good sized wage budget for that division to start off with. And they played good football and were there at the top for most of the season. Bradford who also averaged around the same, 19,000+ have not fared too well. They also had a great, astute manager in Chris Wilder? Clubs like Burnley, Wolves, Leeds, Sheffield United, Palace?, etc. largely survive for a long time with the same core players because they have managers (and support staff) who know what they are doing? Of course luck also helps as in the case of Villa but they have always been a big club and have a great manager now. Our key to promotion and survival in higher leagues is a good, astute manager and support staff (including owners). Of course, having the infrastructure like a new stadium, training facilities, large catchment area, etc. help in survival but may only delay the inevitable if the manager and players are not up to it?
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Post by yaz on Oct 24, 2020 23:28:40 GMT
The football league is very much a reflection of modern society at the moment. It can’t be ignored that there are parallels in terms of declining social mobility amongst the population and an ever increasing wealth gap in the football league and it’s most evident between league one and the championship. Without wanting to turn this into a political thread it’s simply the inevitable outcome when free market capitalism runs rampant and the money does not trickle down effectively. Those with the wealth will use their spending power to cemente their position and that is what is happening. How long before the football league becomes a close shop from the championship up to try and keep our teams that dilute the quality of it’s product (ie Wycombe). I’m sure the chairman of the championship have got their fingers crossed season after season that Sunderland make a comeback, failing that, Hull, Ipswich or Portsmouth at a push. The last thing they want is Fleetwood or Accrington blagging a promotion. The playing field is as uneven as it’s ever been. Our pitch is quite good now. Our manager's pitch is ..........? Most importantly, our owner has really pitched in! Up The Pitch UTG
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Post by yaz on Oct 25, 2020 3:17:51 GMT
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Post by yaz on Oct 25, 2020 3:21:18 GMT
Looking at the Championship this season, Wycombe have now lost their opening 7 and have a -13 goal difference. Is the gap between league 1 and the championship the hardest to overcome and how do we feel about our chances should we manage to get there? With the wages now needed to compete we would need to see increased revenue via a new stadium, or be focused on developing a squad that have been together and know a designated system of play. It seems to me that the way forward is slowly concentrate on the infrastructure of the club and it’s academy and this I feel is the right way to progress. I’d love to see us in the Championship but am happy to be better prepared rather than being humiliated every week. I can see Wycombe having the lowest point return ever this season, any statto know what that tally is? In summary, would we be better placed in say 2/3 seasons than going up before ready? Or is it take promotion any time? I love your planned approach to promotion Kampuchea but I just think you can’t say let’s get promotion in 2/3 years when we’re ready. It doesn’t work like that though I understand your reasoning. You have to take the chance when it comes. Perhaps it wouldn’t have come along again for Wycombe, perhaps they’d have been fighting relegation this year if they stayed down. So I hope we go up this year because the chance may not come again for a generation, not that I think we will. It’s enough for me that will be competing for a top half place. And hopefully get better next year. I think that we’re building so I think we can build a top half table team and hope that we get better but I’d take the chance when it occurs, whenever that is. I remember our 73/74 promotion. Megson put his plans into operation over the two years before. He got Bannister, Warboys earlier then got Jim Eadie in Spring 73. He only added Jacobs, Green and Dobson in the Summer of 73 if I remember correctly. Parsons, Taylor, Stanton, Prince and Kenny Stephens had been there much longer. He was able to build gradually because the gap between wages wasn’t that great. Gerry in 89/90 was a bit similar. Players didn’t feel the need to move up and get more, more, more. And players were still held in contracts. It’s changed massively now. Managers then could do that, now they can’t. Football has changed. The big difference now is freedom of contract. Jean Luc Bosman, blew team building over a number of years out of the water. Now players have the biggest say. Let’s say we had a good season now, finished 5th but missed out in the play-offs. The players obviously did well but with them being on 2 or 3 year contracts longest, they would want to move on immediately and our best players would be picked off by other clubs, Championship or other bigger League 1 clubs. Other teams would come in, we’d sell so not to lose them for nothing and have to rebuild the team. I’ve no problem with that but I think it would happen. And that’s why I don’t think you can plan for promotion in 2/3 years, go for it now. If we were in the Championship we would stand a chance of keeping them by offering new vastly improved contracts. There is a massive gap now and I think Oxford would have done better than Wycombe because they are a better team but they cocked up in the final. Wycombe have played safe by not spending much money or appearing to improve what they've got. But because of that they have shown little ambition, no faith and will be down by Christmas so it’s just as well no fans will see it. Build gradually and try and improve every year but take every chance of promotion that comes your way, football has a nasty habit of kicking you up the **** if you think you can plan for these things. UTG! Have you seen this? www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/12113276/fa-threatens-premier-league-clubs-over-january-foreign-signings?fbclid=IwAR1ytICeiz-9d1pjosDqxVCKZPaQLPpKi8VcCJSZXkJetSH9bXS295vsOjMAnother way of keeping lower league teams from recruiting from abroad?
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Post by onedaygas83 on Oct 25, 2020 6:16:37 GMT
Even if Wycombe get no points this season, if they use their championship money wisely they could be challenging at the top of League 1 for years. That would have to be considered a result for them, or us. Never gunna happen and I reckon they'll drop straight through league one and into league two
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Post by Congas on Oct 25, 2020 6:18:33 GMT
Luton sitting in 9th proves that a smallish club can survive in the Championship, it's not long ago that they were in L2. As far as Wycombe I can't understand how they are hoping to survive with basically last year's squad, if weever go up then hopefully we'd sign a few Championship quality players as Coventry did this summer. Unless we fluke it like Wycombe we're probably 3 years plus away from mounting a promotion push, by then hopefully we'll have a new stadium at least in the pipeline. They were in the National League for a long time before they even got back to League 2 and are still housed in a rickety old stadium that backs on to a narrow Victorian back alley reeking of urine, but a new stadium in the pipeline keeps the dream alive. We should be grateful to our Irish saviour for buggering off to Mansfield when he did because ours isn't even in the trench yet let alone the pipeline. Having said that, Westbrooke did say our aim was promotion this season in an interview early on.
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Post by rememberhalifax on Oct 25, 2020 8:31:42 GMT
A lot of educated in depth analyst on this thread but think its a bit more simplistic, Wycombe had a great start to last season, but second half they were heading for mid table, so basically a mid table side were plucked from obscurity and plunged into a situation they were no where near ready for, sure they will enjoy the experience, all be it a short lived one. Personally i do not enjoy the culture that exists in the prem ,which is spreading to the championship and have no desire to be part of it, that does not mean i do not want to get promoted ,just that i would hate our club ever adopting the kind of culture that exists there, its much more fun giving the elite a bloody nose now and again, bit like Wimbledon used to on a regular basis who showed what could be done from very humble surroundings. If i had to pick a role model from recent years it would be Swansea, from near disaster they evolved year on year to reach the top but never got to big for there boots, just quietly went about a rebuild of the club with great success which they maintain to this day, new ground was pivotal to there success , council helped them in that, no chance of that here!, and had excellent person at the helm, who believed in the philosophy of a succession of managers, so we are part way there, now about this fruit market thing!, up the Rovers.
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Post by o2o2bo2ba on Oct 25, 2020 9:31:34 GMT
Looking at the Championship this season, Wycombe have now lost their opening 7 and have a -13 goal difference. If I were them, I'd sack the safety officer.....he/she/inbetween has done a bloody awful job of not getting postponements whilst losing.
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