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Post by bluebiro on Nov 23, 2020 13:26:19 GMT
Realistically the summer saw a man completely out of his depth purge the club of any on field leadership. He was given a free reign and has set us back massively. DC had a similar issue when he moved on the leadership core of the team, in quick succession we lost Mildenhall, Mansell, McChyrstal and even to a certain extent Easter and Lawrence. That's hundreds of league games lost out of the changing room. Our front 7 players that started against Hull had fewer league appearances at the time that Ed Upson. A very fragile man completely stripped us of experience in the summer and it'll cost us. that was my worry when he had pre season to be pivotal in the future of the club. Also Our youngsters coming through under him had no chance of getting in the starting 11. It seemed that they were not worthy because they hadn't been schooled by development squad from the premier league.get our lads back in at least they have some affiliation to the club
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Post by RD on Nov 23, 2020 13:27:22 GMT
I think we have become besotted with the idea of a playing philosophy to our own detriment. L1 football mostly is old fashioned 442, simple football played with guile and determination with flashes of quality. Most teams that are successful in this league and get promoted from it are the ones that do the simple things well and are fairly direct in their approach. It’s rare that a team from this league will get out of the division playing possession Arsenal type football unless they are an ex championship side who can afford the championship players to simply outclass the opposition. . Let’s look at the Garner stats where for the post we played this possession based philosophy. In 33 games we won 6 and drew 8 losing 19. The appointment of our next manager was on the basis of continuing this philosophy. It’s a philosophy which at the moment, with the current squad, is not working. Persistence with it is simply going to get us relegated because now we haven’t got the confidence to do the simple things well. Also, we had a 20 odd point buffer to the relegation places when Garner took over meaning he had the luxury to implement it at no fear of being relegated. This year we are in trouble already. What we need to do IMO is go back to a simple approach, start with the basics well and then grow the philosophy into the U23s first to bleed them into the first team adding quality as we improve. Very good post. My assumption was that the philosophy was to develop young players with a view to hopefully selling them on for millions and ultimately repeating that cycle. However it appears it goes beyond that and actually covers the style of play as well. Whilst I commend the plan, I too worry that it is hugely naive and will ultimately fail if we do not accept we need to move away from that at least in part. Ironically, it's possible Tisdale will be the right man in that sense. He's clever enough to know that identity and philosophy aside, his job is to win football matches; he will lose his job if we lose too many games, as happened with Garner. As such, I think he'll realise the dream of free-flowing, Liverpool-esque attacking football is simply too hard to embed in to a L1 side (at least without enormous investment), and will instead opt for a more direct approach that is nonetheless still more attacking than Coughlan, for example. If he does that, he may appease the board, the fans and still get us picking up enough points to stay up and then ultimately start climbing the table.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2020 13:29:51 GMT
Dave Tutonda although new to league football isn’t young, he is 25
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Post by curlywurly on Nov 23, 2020 13:46:08 GMT
Realistically the summer saw a man completely out of his depth purge the club of any on field leadership. He was given a free reign and has set us back massively. DC had a similar issue when he moved on the leadership core of the team, in quick succession we lost Mildenhall, Mansell, McChyrstal and even to a certain extent Easter and Lawrence. That's hundreds of league games lost out of the changing room. Our front 7 players that started against Hull had fewer league appearances at the time that Ed Upson. A very fragile man completely stripped us of experience in the summer and it'll cost us. I agree that there was a lot of experience our of the door and I'm on record to say that we should have retained Abs Ogogo (more for the player than just experience alone). We definitely need some more experience in midfield - hence I'd rather Upson + Westbrooke at the centre.
But I don't think you're being quite fair. Ehmer had over 250 league appearances and was Gillingham's Captain, Baldwin had over 200 appearances and had been Sunderland's captain. Hanlan had over 100 appearances. Oztumer has over 250 appearances. Nicholson had nearly 200 appearances in Scotland and MSL.
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Post by chewbacca on Nov 23, 2020 13:48:09 GMT
Let’s look at the Garner stats where for the post we played this possession based philosophy. In 33 games we won 6 and drew 8 losing 19. Can we please move away from this? Garner's Rovers averaged 46.5% possession in his tenure, having less possession is not a possession based philosophy. During the standout results of his tenure the numbers are frankly hilarious; Sunderland 3-0 Win Home - 38% Sunderland 1-1 Draw Away - 28% Shrewsbury 1-0 Win Away - 35% Lincoln 1-0 Win Away - 40% His only games where he turned possession into wins were Northampton 62% and Blackpool 57%. Garner set up a team to do nothing with the ball while having the ball less than the opposition.
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Post by chewbacca on Nov 23, 2020 13:49:26 GMT
Dave Tutonda although new to league football isn’t young, he is 25 72 Football League appearances prior to joining Rovers.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2020 13:50:18 GMT
Dave Tutonda although new to league football isn’t young, he is 25 72 Football League appearances prior to joining Rovers. That makes him a youngster does it? Not arguing he doesn’t have league experience but he’s not young. He’s 25
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Post by chewbacca on Nov 23, 2020 13:51:58 GMT
72 Football League appearances prior to joining Rovers. That makes him a youngster does it? Not arguing he doesn’t have league experience but he’s not young. He’s 25 Not saying he's younger, he's certainly inexperienced at this level though. He'd never played a game above League 2 before.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2020 13:53:08 GMT
That makes him a youngster does it? Not arguing he doesn’t have league experience but he’s not young. He’s 25 Not saying he's younger, he's certainly inexperienced at this level though. He'd never played a game above League 2 before. Tutonda - Glimpses of real quality. Also moments of madness. What you'd expect from someone so young and having played non-league football until very recently. Has a good chance of becoming a very good player, but we need him to be one now I was simply pointing out that this post is wrong, people talk about him like he’s 19/20. He isn’t he’s coming up to his peak years
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Post by gashead1981 on Nov 23, 2020 13:55:26 GMT
Let’s look at the Garner stats where for the post we played this possession based philosophy. In 33 games we won 6 and drew 8 losing 19. Can we please move away from this? Garner's Rovers averaged 46.5% possession in his tenure, having less possession is not a possession based philosophy. During the standout results of his tenure the numbers are frankly hilarious; Sunderland 3-0 Win Home - 38% Sunderland 1-1 Draw Away - 28% Shrewsbury 1-0 Win Away - 35% Lincoln 1-0 Win Away - 40% His only games where he turned possession into wins were Northampton 62% and Blackpool 57%. Garner set up a team to do nothing with the ball while having the ball less than the opposition. You’re stats are correct. However, It was a possession based philosophy, it’s just we weren’t very good at it. The idea was to play out from the back with each player playing a pass and move. But it didn’t work, so it went across the back line before going a longer route. We didn’t play a counter attack method or even a direct long ball method. We certainly didn’t play a zonal press and we certainly didn’t look to play high press football.
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Post by utg4eva on Nov 23, 2020 13:56:38 GMT
I think we have become besotted with the idea of a playing philosophy to our own detriment. L1 football mostly is old fashioned 442, simple football played with guile and determination with flashes of quality. Most teams that are successful in this league and get promoted from it are the ones that do the simple things well and are fairly direct in their approach. It’s rare that a team from this league will get out of the division playing possession Arsenal type football unless they are an ex championship side who can afford the championship players to simply outclass the opposition. . Let’s look at the Garner stats where for the post we played this possession based philosophy. In 33 games we won 6 and drew 8 losing 19. The appointment of our next manager was on the basis of continuing this philosophy. It’s a philosophy which at the moment, with the current squad, is not working. Persistence with it is simply going to get us relegated because now we haven’t got the confidence to do the simple things well. Also, we had a 20 odd point buffer to the relegation places when Garner took over meaning he had the luxury to implement it at no fear of being relegated. This year we are in trouble already. What we need to do IMO is go back to a simple approach, start with the basics well and then grow the philosophy into the U23s first to bleed them into the first team adding quality as we improve. Look at the garner stats this season. Overall you have to look at his whole record but sacking him in his best period after signing players in his style was madness. 2020 / 2021 win % overall = 27% October 2020 win % = 43% 2020 / 2021 win % v teams below top 10 = 50% Losses v teams below top 10 = 0 Regardless of how we were playing, what the personal opinions were of BG the cold hard facts are we weren’t going down
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Post by chewbacca on Nov 23, 2020 13:57:57 GMT
Not saying he's younger, he's certainly inexperienced at this level though. He'd never played a game above League 2 before. Tutonda - Glimpses of real quality. Also moments of madness. What you'd expect from someone so young and having played non-league football until very recently. Has a good chance of becoming a very good player, but we need him to be one now I was simply pointing out that this post is wrong, people talk about him like he’s 19/20. He isn’t he’s coming up to his peak years I'm in agreement, he's not young but inexperienced at this level. It made the Koiki signing and retention of Leahy even odder.
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Post by chewbacca on Nov 23, 2020 13:59:00 GMT
Can we please move away from this? Garner's Rovers averaged 46.5% possession in his tenure, having less possession is not a possession based philosophy. During the standout results of his tenure the numbers are frankly hilarious; Sunderland 3-0 Win Home - 38% Sunderland 1-1 Draw Away - 28% Shrewsbury 1-0 Win Away - 35% Lincoln 1-0 Win Away - 40% His only games where he turned possession into wins were Northampton 62% and Blackpool 57%. Garner set up a team to do nothing with the ball while having the ball less than the opposition. You’re stats are correct. However, It was a possession based philosophy, it’s just we weren’t very good at it. The idea was to play out from the back with each player playing a pass and move. But it didn’t work, so it went across the back line before going a longer route. We didn’t play a counter attack method or even a direct long ball method. We certainly didn’t play a zonal press and we certainly didn’t look to play high press football. So we prevailed and gave a pretty big budget by our terms to an absolute fud.
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Post by pirate on Nov 23, 2020 14:19:41 GMT
I think we have become besotted with the idea of a playing philosophy to our own detriment. L1 football mostly is old fashioned 442, simple football played with guile and determination with flashes of quality. Most teams that are successful in this league and get promoted from it are the ones that do the simple things well and are fairly direct in their approach. It’s rare that a team from this league will get out of the division playing possession Arsenal type football unless they are an ex championship side who can afford the championship players to simply outclass the opposition. . Let’s look at the Garner stats where for the post we played this possession based philosophy. In 33 games we won 6 and drew 8 losing 19. The appointment of our next manager was on the basis of continuing this philosophy. It’s a philosophy which at the moment, with the current squad, is not working. Persistence with it is simply going to get us relegated because now we haven’t got the confidence to do the simple things well. Also, we had a 20 odd point buffer to the relegation places when Garner took over meaning he had the luxury to implement it at no fear of being relegated. This year we are in trouble already. What we need to do IMO is go back to a simple approach, start with the basics well and then grow the philosophy into the U23s first to bleed them into the first team adding quality as we improve. 5 out the top 6 teams in the division are currently playing a variation of a 4-3-3 or 3-4-3. Last season Coventry were promoted mostly playing a 3-4-3 and were widely considered the most attractive footballing team in the division.
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Post by toddy1953 on Nov 23, 2020 14:21:57 GMT
It’s easy to look at some & say he’s good, he’s rubbish, he’s got promise, he’s got goals in him - but it’s how we can get what is essentially a very average squad with some promise to gel as a team. For me it starts at the back, defenders need to be able to defend, we have been shocking at set pieces all season, there has been no leadership. We have a very disjointed squad - if TW has had as much imput into the squad as he implies, then I’m surprised that he was promoted instead of being sacked - unless he didn’t? I think the squad has a really weak underbelly & I hope Tisdale can sort it
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Post by axegas on Nov 23, 2020 14:28:54 GMT
I can’t question the long term philosophy, because as a club we should be developing younger players to sell on for a good profit and who can say no to an attacking possession based style of football, if it’s done right it can be a lot better to watch than some of the football we have played in the last 3-4 years.
I think what has been holding us back so far this season is a mixture of basic defending errors especially when defending crosses, never knowing what our best formation or starting 11 looks like with a big group of players and the fact that we look rather toothless going forward.
We never register enough shots on target in games or consistently challenge the oppositions goal, preferring instead to employ a smash and grab approach where we’ll start brightly, attempt to grab a lead then try to sit back and defend it for long periods, every time we end up getting the ball just passing it about the back instead of passing it forward with intent. That is the essence of what our approach to games under Garner was.
I think that we’ve got 5-6 players that in theory should mean that we’re not in a relegation battle. IMO a team with the likes of Jaakkola, Ehmer, Westbrooke, Nicholson, Hanlan shouldn’t be challenged with the threat of relegation.
However, simply having decent players isn’t enough. You need a clear and coherent strategy to win games and every player in the starting eleven to pull their weight. This hasn’t happened, they’ve been poorly coached so far this season and individual errors like Upson’s on Saturday continue to cost us.
Lastly the balance of the squad as been mentioned time and time again on here isn’t great. Only 3 strikers, two of whom are now injured when we play two up top every game, yet we’ve got a massive over supply of midfielders and left wingbacks for some reason. This needs to be addressed by Tisdale in January.
A very promising squad but we need that promise to show quickly and we need Tisdale to make an impact and prove that the boards decision to sack Garner and appoint him instead was the right one.
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Post by chewbacca on Nov 23, 2020 14:36:28 GMT
I can’t question the long term philosophy, because as a club we should be developing younger players to sell on for a good profit and who can say no to an attacking possession based style of football, if it’s done right it can be a lot better to watch than some of the football we have played in the last 3-4 years. I think what has been holding us back so far this season is a mixture of basic defending errors especially when defending crosses, never knowing what our best formation or starting 11 looks like with a big group of players and the fact that we look rather toothless going forward. We never register enough shots on target in games or consistently challenge the oppositions goal, preferring instead to employ a smash and grab approach where we’ll start brightly, grab a lead then try to sit back and defend it for long periods, every time we end up getting the ball just passing it about the back instead of passing it forward with intent. That is the essence of what our approach to games under Garner was. I think that we’ve got 5-6 players that in theory should mean that we’re not in a relegation battle. IMO a team with the likes of Jaakkola, Ehmer, Westbrooke, Nicholson, Hanlan shouldn’t be challenged with the threat of relegation. However, simply having decent players isn’t enough. You need a clear and coherent strategy to win games and every player in the starting eleven to pull their weight. This hasn’t happened, they’ve been poorly coached so far this season and individual errors like Upson’s on Saturday continue to cost us. Lastly the balance of the squad as been mentioned time and time again on here isn’t great. Only 3 strikers, two of whom are now injured when we play two up top every game, yet we’ve got a massive over supply of midfielders and left wingbacks for some reason. This needs to be addressed by Tisdale in January. I think that's the issue, long term plans are great but you do need to win football matches in the meantime. When we signed Andy Rammell I don't think anyone was asking about his sell on? It's all about a healthy mix, while I'd love 11 under 23 year old Bristolians playing for Rovers with 3 of them being sold in January for £10m each it's simply not viable. Even Alex Ferguson's "kids" had Schmeichel, Bruce, Irwin, Cantona & McClair make well over 20 appearances each.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2020 14:39:23 GMT
It’s easy to look at some & say he’s good, he’s rubbish, he’s got promise, he’s got goals in him - but it’s how we can get what is essentially a very average squad with some promise to gel as a team. For me it starts at the back, defenders need to be able to defend, we have been shocking at set pieces all season, there has been no leadership. We have a very disjointed squad - if TW has had as much imput into the squad as he implies, then I’m surprised that he was promoted instead of being sacked - unless he didn’t? I think the squad has a really weak underbelly & I hope Tisdale can sort it If I were Wael I would already be planning a root and branch review to look at every aspect of the football side at the end of the season because it’s looking like the recruitment was very poorly thought out and executed, compounded by poor managerial leadership and probably poor coaching too. I really don’t think we have any “proper football people” at the club who are capable of implementing the strategy we are trying to implement. And that’s before even answering the question of whether that strategy can be viable. Every step we take towards the execution of that strategy seems to have gone wrong.
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Post by chewbacca on Nov 23, 2020 14:44:25 GMT
It’s easy to look at some & say he’s good, he’s rubbish, he’s got promise, he’s got goals in him - but it’s how we can get what is essentially a very average squad with some promise to gel as a team. For me it starts at the back, defenders need to be able to defend, we have been shocking at set pieces all season, there has been no leadership. We have a very disjointed squad - if TW has had as much imput into the squad as he implies, then I’m surprised that he was promoted instead of being sacked - unless he didn’t? I think the squad has a really weak underbelly & I hope Tisdale can sort it If I were Wael I would already be planning a root and branch review to look at every aspect of the football side at the end of the season because it’s looking like the recruitment was very poorly thought out and executed, compounded by poor managerial leadership and probably poor coaching too. I really don’t think we have any “proper football people” at the club who are capable of implementing the strategy we are trying to implement. And that’s before even answering the question of whether that strategy can be viable. Every step we take towards the execution of that strategy seems to have gone wrong. I mean we do have a manager that's managed over 700 games, a Director of Football with 372 League appearances and has managed over 250 games. So the "proper football people" thing just seems a bit daft.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2020 14:48:08 GMT
If I were Wael I would already be planning a root and branch review to look at every aspect of the football side at the end of the season because it’s looking like the recruitment was very poorly thought out and executed, compounded by poor managerial leadership and probably poor coaching too. I really don’t think we have any “proper football people” at the club who are capable of implementing the strategy we are trying to implement. And that’s before even answering the question of whether that strategy can be viable. Every step we take towards the execution of that strategy seems to have gone wrong. I mean we do have a manager that's managed over 700 games, a Director of Football with 372 League appearances and has managed over 250 games. So the "proper football people" thing just seems a bit daft. Well, the proof is in the pudding is it not? You can have lots of experience in the football world but that still doesn’t make you the right person for the very specific parameters that we have to make the strategy we want to pursue work.
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