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Post by RD on Nov 23, 2020 11:50:06 GMT
Currently we occupy the last relegation place. Obviously Garner has certainly played a large part in that. However, having heard time and time again (and only last week again via Mr 100%) that we've got a great squad and have recruited exceptionally well, I genuinely wonder if we're kidding ourselves.
My assessment of the squad:
Jaakola - Best GK in the division
Van Stopsnothing - Crap
Hare - Very good. Defintely happy enough with him
Harries - At best okay 70% of the time, utter disaster the other 30%
Baldwin - At best okay 60% of the time, utter disaster the other 40%
Ehmer - Improving but still not at the heights I expected from him. Feel he'll probably be "good enough" though and every chance he'll go on to be "very good"
Kilgour - Worried his good performances last season were almost entirely down to Craig. Exposed since as a very poor player IMO. Hopefully it's a confidence thing and he re-finds his form, but I do have serious concerns about the likelihood of that materialising
Tutonda - Glimpses of real quality. Also moments of madness. What you'd expect from someone so young and having played non-league football until very recently. Has a good chance of becoming a very good player, but we need him to be one now
unfortunately. Can probably get by as is though (i.e. there are other areas in the squad of greater concern)
Davies / Little - Good players on their day. The problem is, because of injuries, that's about 3 or 4 matches per season
Koiki - Not seen enough as only recently joined but promising signs so far; maybe be the more "ready to go" player we need, taking some of the pressure off of Tutonda to be that player straight away
McCormick - Decent young player, definitely good enough to make the squad, but would struggle to get in to the starting 11 of quite a number of teams in this division I'd imagine
Grant - Hit and miss. Mainly "miss" so far but seems to be improving. Provides me with hope that he'll develop in to a pretty good player. However we need him to be one right now (given CDM a vital part of the team)
Upson - Looks finished and not good enough any longer. Probably need to get shot of
Oztumer - I can only imagine was Wael's signings Might as well send him back, what's the point?
Westbrooke - Absolutely adored by most on here. Personally I think he flatters to deceive in the main. That said, the only midfielder capable of a moment of brilliance. Very worried he's our "key man" in midfield though; not consistent enough IMO
Nicholson - Definitely a good player, very good signing IMO
JML - Very average. Not lived up to first loan. Fair enough having him a squad player but wouldn't be upset if he was re-called. Says it all
Ayunga & Daly - Both very, very promising players but unfortunately they need to be fast-tracked as no other option; not ideal for them in reality (lots of pressure on their young shoulders)
Hanlan - Exciting player to watch; the sort of player who can make something happen from nothing. However, his finishing needs to improve - not sure he'll get the 20+ goals we probably require from him in reality
Hargreaves / Walker etc. - All very promising young players whom I'm delighted to have at the club. However you obviously wouldn't expect too much from them yet
So there you have it. A very damning assessment for sure - apologies if I've missed anyone. Maybe a tad harsh and I realise my views on Westbrooke will largely be rubbished. HOWEVER. Even if you change Westbrooke's review to "utterly outstanding" and Kilgour's to "average to good", I'd imagine most people would agree with the rest.
With that in mind, it seems we have - at best - a squad of very, very average footballers and - at worst - a squad of players that in the main are below average with a tiny bit of extra quality here and there (which every other team will have also).
IMO Tisdale certainly has his work cut out, and this season (for me) is entirely about survival and nothing more - even dreams of finishing top half appear to be a potentially very far-fetched in the cold light of day.
Sorry, certainly not a pick me up - but (in true Paul Buckle style) perhaps we need to suitably re-align expectations and accept that we are likely in a relegation dog-fight.
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Post by gasheadpirate on Nov 23, 2020 11:57:52 GMT
I think exectations were drastically realigned in recent weeks. I will be happy if we avoid relegation now. Was hoping or a top half before the season started.
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pirate
Forum Legend
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Post by pirate on Nov 23, 2020 12:04:31 GMT
I'm surprised. I predicted the giddy heights of 16th in the table and we are currently 21st. The squad is the best we have had in ages, apart from the 11 or 12 players that aren't good enough.
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Post by gregsy on Nov 23, 2020 12:09:27 GMT
I will say that if developing young players into a certain 'DNA' or 'philosophy' then a relegation battle in league 1 probably ain't the best place to do it....
I hope we can show some signs that bring forth a bit of confidence soon and quickly move away from that possibility.... We shall see....
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Nov 23, 2020 12:17:03 GMT
I still think the idea is a sound one and I'm happy that it's the direction our club is heading in.
If we have the right person managing the young squad I can live with us being relegated this season.
We simply have to be sustainable or we will cease to be.
I'm glad WAQ is brave enough and has the vision to deliver this.
We have to hold our nerve.
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Post by 2nd May 1990 on Nov 23, 2020 12:18:02 GMT
I think we can all see some promise in almost everyone. The main problem is that the likes of Tutonda, Kilgour, Grant, Daly, McCormick, Harries, Mitchell-Lawson, Koiki, I could go on and on. They are all so young. Normally you might put two or three into a fairly experienced side and they might flourish. Hanlan’s 23 and Westbrooke’s only 24 and they’re having to play the role of elder statesmen within a team in which only Jakkola and Ehmer are established pros and sure of their place.
In many ways assembling this squad was madness unless you gave it a long time to develop. Now they’ve got rid of Garner, it remains to be seen what happens next. I’m not sure we can afford or whether we even can tear up the plan and start again. Tisdale is likely to have to try and make this work with this imbalanced squad.
The worry is whether this squad would have the experience and know-how for a relegation battle before we even mention the word ‘fight’.
I think we need to see results pretty quickly or it could be a disaster of a season.
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Post by gasandelectricity on Nov 23, 2020 12:24:47 GMT
I think we’ve got a good squad but the problem is we don’t have a first 11 so to speak. You’ve pointed out rightly we’re expecting players who will come through in the future to come straight into the starting 11.
BGs mistake was signing players for the future and no players for the present, particularly at the top end of the pitch. I’d be happy for us to hover outside the relegation zone until January and then push on once out frailties have been addressed. We are firefighting until the window is open.
Bringing in youngsters to develop and sell on at a profit is a sensible strategy. Bringing in ONLY youngsters is a bad strategy. Doing that and expecting players to be developed by a manager and an assistant who’ve never kicked a ball professionally is asking to be relegated. Fingers crossed that Tisdale can resolve this situation.
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Post by o2o2bo2ba on Nov 23, 2020 12:39:06 GMT
Disagree with some elements of o p.
I think Alfie should be nowhere near the team atm, something isn't right and his inclusion is costing us matches. The TC idea might be right, but I don't think he's a poor player. He's just young and needs nurturing. Which brings me on to the biggest disappointment (imo), Ehmer. I question his skippering and his defending.
This is a big part of our fall down. We concede too many sloppy goals, non marking etc.
If we are short on strikers, why can't we bring back Keiran Phillips and/or Harry Warwick?
Needs must.
Should we be surprised?
Nope. 5 years of evolving hard work that took us up to play offs, with belief, has been systematically dismantled. It's going to take us years to recover. We are in for a bumpy ride...
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Post by chewbacca on Nov 23, 2020 12:39:33 GMT
I'd say the critique of Alfie is a touch unfair, completely let down by a "progressive" manager.
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Post by o2o2bo2ba on Nov 23, 2020 12:40:22 GMT
I'd say the critique of Alfie is a touch unfair, completely let down by a "progressive" manager. Exactly! |
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Post by petegas on Nov 23, 2020 12:45:25 GMT
Agree with most of that to be fair. Think there’s absolutely still a good player in Kilgour though. He’s started the season poorly and then justifiably been in and out of the team. This has had a catastrophic impact on his confidence which PT will need to work on. Bring back the confidence and his form could improve in the blink of an eye and we’ll see the player we were all raving about last season. Also think Upson is one who looks short of confidence having been benched for most of this season. He was our best player in preseason despite his age. A run of games will do him the world of good. Although he is a scapegoat for a few on here, he has proper pedigree, real quality and has had a career that I can’t really see any other outfield player in our squad emulating.
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Post by RD on Nov 23, 2020 12:51:05 GMT
Some excellent responses.
Firstly, the Kilgour critique is indeed potentially unfair. There's every reason to be hopeful it's purely down to confidence and that it can return and with it his performances will improve - fully appreciate that. I guess my worry is that it won't. But fair point nonetheless.
I also absolutely agree Hugo that ultimately it's the right approach - we have to become sustainable long-term. So it is in the main the right approach.
However, as 2nd May and Gaselectricity point out, you can't rely entirely on a group of unexperienced youngsters:
1) Whilst they may develop in to very good players, that will take time and - until they do - they will be players who at this point in time aren't really up to L1 football. That's no slight on them, just common sense
2) Therefore, you want to minimise reliance on such players where possible, and mix it up with experienced pros; we have completely neglected this, and there is very little experience in the starting 11 (partly through injuries to some extent) but is certainly on the short side regardless IMO
3) Young players need time and patience to develop; my fear is that by putting so much pressure on them at such an early stage, the likelihood is it will actually do more damage than good
I guess the main point of my post is that we are where we are ultimately. And - as such - we probably need to lower our expectations ASAP; this will ensure more patience with PT and less pressure on what is a squad of very young, inexperienced players.
I really hope we survive, but it's going to be a very long and hard season IMO.
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Post by rememberhalifax on Nov 23, 2020 12:55:18 GMT
Perhaps the clear out was too drastic ,although i believe in the new 'long term' philosophy of the club, i would have kept Craig and eased him into a coaching role eventually and would have kept Abs both lending some experience and balance to the squad. I have said before that i do not see some of the loan players eg McC as any better than our own youngsters like Boris 2 or Cam , we are where we are and need fighters in the squad to battle our way out of trouble, sure Paul Tisdale will do what is required come Jan window till then what we have will have to start earning there keep!
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Post by curlywurly on Nov 23, 2020 13:07:21 GMT
Currently we occupy the last relegation place. Obviously Garner has certainly played a large part in that. However, having heard time and time again (and only last week again via Mr 100%) that we've got a great squad and have recruited exceptionally well, I genuinely wonder if we're kidding ourselves. ...... IMO Tisdale certainly has his work cut out, and this season (for me) is entirely about survival and nothing more - even dreams of finishing top half appear to be a potentially very far-fetched in the cold light of day. Sorry, certainly not a pick me up - but (in true Paul Buckle style) perhaps we need to suitably re-align expectations and accept that we are likely in a relegation dog-fight. I don't agree with all of your assessments, but FWIW here's mine warts and all:
Jaakola – best Keeper we have had since Nigel Martyn
Van Stappershoef – Seems to take a long while for messages to get from brain to arms and legs.
Hare – Excellent crosser and hard worker/fair defender
Harries – Signs of being a cultured footballer/ favours a 50yd pass when there are better options shorter/ a bit languid at times
Baldwin – A bit underwhelming so far, Get the feeling he’d be more comfortable in a traditional back four
Ehmer – The best of our current options at the back. Leads by example, but could be step up even more.
Kilgour – Looks all at sea at the moment. Needs to concentrate on doing the basics right. Tutonda – IMO the worst of our four left back/ LWB options. Flattered to deceive in some early games, but is a liability defensively.
Davies – Missing his no nonsense defending.
Little – Looked good early in the season. Better than Hare defending, but not as good going forward.
Koiki – Too little evidence so far, but looks to be a better defender than DT/LL/ MK
McCormick – Really good energy and technical ability, whilst making the odd howler.
Grant – Worried that he is not as good as many think. He’s not a midfield destroyer, but not creative either and has a real tendency to give the ball away to cheaply – often in critical positions.
Leahy – Looked promising to me in the early season games. A bit suspect defending, but has plenty of “nouse”.
Upson – Contrary to RoverDrive, I think he is the combination of experience and ability that we need to improve our midfield. I’d play him alongside Westbrooke and drop Grant at the centre of midfield.
Oztumer – Possibly the most gifted player on the squad, but will not shine if we constantly bypass him. We’ve yet to see the best, but he has the ability to unlock defences for others to profit from.
Westbrooke – Quality player, but needs the rest of the midfield to work for him, to avoid him dropping too deep and spraying 50 yard balls. More dangerous when getting into advanced positions.
Nicholson – Rapidly improving. Given the remit to run at defenders, he can be very good. Gets bypassed if we revert to long ball football.
JML – Not getting much of a chance at the moment. Would like to see him working alongside Hanlan
Daly – great energy and enthusiasm, and is a better player if not just asked to chase lost causes.
Ayunga – Not enough evidence to say. Could be a handful, but looked raw early in the season.
Hanlan – Most impressive. Very good at making something out of difficult positions. Best when running at defenders. Plays very much like Jason Roberts, if he can add the clinical touch
Hargreaves – good as an impact sub. Worth a try in the last 25 minutes of tight games.
Walker – not enough evidence so far.
Rodman, Barrett recovering.
We need to see how Tisdale puts his stamp on the side and patterns of play. I'm not a massive fan of 3/5 at the back. We have had lots of deep possession that doesn't threaten, and if it goes wrong puts us under unnecessary pressure. I'd rather us play through midfield more, particularly as we have some good assets turning and running at defenders. We are weak on defending set pieces and don't close down on the edge of our box as effectively as we did under Coughlan. Given the battle ahead, I'm worried that we don't have enough fight in the side having lost the likes of Ollie Clarke, Abs Ogogo and Tony Craig for technically better, but less aggressive younger players.
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Post by Jomo on Nov 23, 2020 13:08:06 GMT
Good thread. I think some of us (or most of us, certainly myself included) were guilty of thinking we have a stronger squad than we do. Many of our players have a lot of promise, but I agree that our squad is too unbalanced both in terms of positions filled and experience levels.
Its interesting when listening to the views of impartial EFL enthusiasts on some podcasts, that we were only fancied to finish lower mid-table or even to struggle. Perhaps those on the outside were able to see our weaknesses more than we could, with the benefit of having a better overall view of the division, with no emotional investment.
Anyway, we have what we have, and I have revised my expectations. I expect we will struggle, and I just hope that we can stay up this year. I actually thought that we would improve, especially after the wins over Northampton, Lincoln and Shrewsbury, but unfortunately we have gone backwards, and now any possible improvement under Garner will now be out of the window, and we have to hope Tisdale can turn our fortunes around.
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Post by chewbacca on Nov 23, 2020 13:10:04 GMT
Realistically the summer saw a man completely out of his depth purge the club of any on field leadership. He was given a free reign and has set us back massively. DC had a similar issue when he moved on the leadership core of the team, in quick succession we lost Mildenhall, Mansell, McChyrstal and even to a certain extent Easter and Lawrence. That's hundreds of league games lost out of the changing room. Our front 7 players that started against Hull had fewer league appearances at the time that Ed Upson. A very fragile man completely stripped us of experience in the summer and it'll cost us.
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Post by gasandelectricity on Nov 23, 2020 13:14:14 GMT
It would be interesting if you could press save on this season and then reboot it Football Manager style, exactly the same, but having kept TC in the squad and seen how we would have done instead. Perhaps our defending would have been less catastrophic.
I think at the moment we're having a confidence crisis and a lot of confusion about how to play. I don't think it's a coincidence that as time went on with last seasons squad we fell away, and that we've seen similar this season with a largely new squad. Hopefully from the weekend onwards we'll start showing a bit more tactical solidity and play with a bit more confidence. I fear tomorrow will be too soon.
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Post by chewbacca on Nov 23, 2020 13:16:39 GMT
It would be interesting if you could press save on this season and then reboot it Football Manager style, exactly the same, but having kept TC in the squad and seen how we would have done instead. Perhaps our defending would have been less catastrophic. I think at the moment we're having a confidence crisis and a lot of confusion about how to play. I don't think it's a coincidence that as time went on with last seasons squad we fell away, and that we've seen similar this season with a largely new squad. Hopefully from the weekend onwards we'll start showing a bit more tactical solidity and play with a bit more confidence. I fear tomorrow will be too soon. I don't even think it's a Craig thing. I just think we've recruited three pretty similar centre backs that are all pretty poor in the air. Garner seemed to put no importance in the filth, and too often the filth is what wins you League One matches. |
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Post by gashead1981 on Nov 23, 2020 13:18:41 GMT
I think we have become besotted with the idea of a playing philosophy to our own detriment.
L1 football mostly is old fashioned 442, simple football played with guile and determination with flashes of quality. Most teams that are successful in this league and get promoted from it are the ones that do the simple things well and are fairly direct in their approach.
It’s rare that a team from this league will get out of the division playing possession Arsenal type football unless they are an ex championship side who can afford the championship players to simply outclass the opposition. .
Let’s look at the Garner stats where for the post we played this possession based philosophy. In 33 games we won 6 and drew 8 losing 19.
The appointment of our next manager was on the basis of continuing this philosophy. It’s a philosophy which at the moment, with the current squad, is not working. Persistence with it is simply going to get us relegated because now we haven’t got the confidence to do the simple things well.
Also, we had a 20 odd point buffer to the relegation places when Garner took over meaning he had the luxury to implement it at no fear of being relegated. This year we are in trouble already.
What we need to do IMO is go back to a simple approach, start with the basics well and then grow the philosophy into the U23s first to bleed them into the first team adding quality as we improve.
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Post by gasandelectricity on Nov 23, 2020 13:18:46 GMT
It would be interesting if you could press save on this season and then reboot it Football Manager style, exactly the same, but having kept TC in the squad and seen how we would have done instead. Perhaps our defending would have been less catastrophic. I think at the moment we're having a confidence crisis and a lot of confusion about how to play. I don't think it's a coincidence that as time went on with last seasons squad we fell away, and that we've seen similar this season with a largely new squad. Hopefully from the weekend onwards we'll start showing a bit more tactical solidity and play with a bit more confidence. I fear tomorrow will be too soon. I don't even think it's a Craig thing. I just think we've recruited three pretty similar centre backs that are all pretty poor in the air. Garner seemed to put no importance in the filth, and too often the filth is what wins you League One matches. I can thoroughly agree with that but what I really feel we're missing is organisational basics and a strong willed player in the squad. I don't think we'd have conceded that goal Saturday with Craig in the squad, and if we did, he wouldn't let them forget about it. The army general at the back impact. Ehmer doesn't seem to do this, the players just blame each other. |
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