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Post by simon1883 on Nov 23, 2020 14:49:24 GMT
I still think the idea is a sound one and I'm happy that it's the direction our club is heading in. If we have the right person managing the young squad I can live with us being relegated this season. We simply have to be sustainable or we will cease to be. I'm glad WAQ is brave enough and has the vision to deliver this. We have to hold our nerve. I said something similar on Twitter. We needed someone to halt the rot and give the club some direction. WAQ seems to have the balls to do this Abs probably knows he will upset some fans but the club needed a change of direction and we now have it.
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Post by chewbacca on Nov 23, 2020 14:58:51 GMT
I mean we do have a manager that's managed over 700 games, a Director of Football with 372 League appearances and has managed over 250 games. So the "proper football people" thing just seems a bit daft. Well, the proof is in the pudding is it not? You can have lots of experience in the football world but that still doesn’t make you the right person for the very specific parameters that we have to make the strategy we want to pursue work. Proper football people is just a daft term though. It's waved about as some odd standard, like I said we now have two men at the front of the football operation with thousands of matches of experience to draw on. The difference in going from someone who when they joined had never managed a football match in his life to someone who's managed over 700 will be stark. Widdrington helped craft a clever little side with GC and didn't with a manager who was clearly out of his depth. Let's see what the next few months bring.
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Post by axegas on Nov 23, 2020 14:59:21 GMT
I can’t question the long term philosophy, because as a club we should be developing younger players to sell on for a good profit and who can say no to an attacking possession based style of football, if it’s done right it can be a lot better to watch than some of the football we have played in the last 3-4 years. I think what has been holding us back so far this season is a mixture of basic defending errors especially when defending crosses, never knowing what our best formation or starting 11 looks like with a big group of players and the fact that we look rather toothless going forward. We never register enough shots on target in games or consistently challenge the oppositions goal, preferring instead to employ a smash and grab approach where we’ll start brightly, grab a lead then try to sit back and defend it for long periods, every time we end up getting the ball just passing it about the back instead of passing it forward with intent. That is the essence of what our approach to games under Garner was. I think that we’ve got 5-6 players that in theory should mean that we’re not in a relegation battle. IMO a team with the likes of Jaakkola, Ehmer, Westbrooke, Nicholson, Hanlan shouldn’t be challenged with the threat of relegation. However, simply having decent players isn’t enough. You need a clear and coherent strategy to win games and every player in the starting eleven to pull their weight. This hasn’t happened, they’ve been poorly coached so far this season and individual errors like Upson’s on Saturday continue to cost us. Lastly the balance of the squad as been mentioned time and time again on here isn’t great. Only 3 strikers, two of whom are now injured when we play two up top every game, yet we’ve got a massive over supply of midfielders and left wingbacks for some reason. This needs to be addressed by Tisdale in January. I think that's the issue, long term plans are great but you do need to win football matches in the meantime. When we signed Andy Rammell I don't think anyone was asking about his sell on? It's all about a healthy mix, while I'd love 11 under 23 year old Bristolians playing for Rovers with 3 of them being sold in January for £10m each it's simply not viable. Even Alex Ferguson's "kids" had Schmeichel, Bruce, Irwin, Cantona & McClair make well over 20 appearances each. I very much agree with the keenness of the board for the club to give lots of opportunities to young players so that we can increase transfer sales as revenue source for the club but personally I think we’re going the wrong way about it. We currently play 8-9 players every week that are under 25. However, despite this trust in younger players, I don’t think in this current form we’re ever going to make as much on sales of young players than the likes of Peterborough and Fleetwood. Their approach is to play with 5-6 wily, experienced pros that have been around this level or have prior experience in the championship in their career. They will then give their manager a bit of a budget to spend on young players residing in L1, L2 and the National League that their scouting department has flagged as having a lot of potential. Those players then develop by getting regular first team football playing alongside the experienced professionals that they take confidence from and learn off of. Look at posh for example, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the likes of Kent, Dembele, Eisa, Pym will make Posh more money than Harries, Daly, Koiki, Grant will ever make for us. Coughlan, who is regarded as a bit of a football dinosaur and someone who favoured his senior pros, got far more out of the likes of Hargreaves and Kilgour than Garner ever did because he gave them consistent first team football and played them alongside the likes of Craig, Upson, Ogogo, Rodman, who they could learn from. Made us a lot more competitive in the short term too.
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Post by chewbacca on Nov 23, 2020 15:10:51 GMT
I think the funniest thing about the whole Garner experiment is he ended a run of around a decade where every starting line up had an ex-Youth Team player.
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Post by gasandelectricity on Nov 23, 2020 15:17:54 GMT
I think the funniest thing about the whole Garner experiment is he ended a run of around a decade where every starting line up had an ex-Youth Team player. That's a great shame if true, especially given the lines about developing our own talent.
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Post by gulfofaden on Nov 23, 2020 15:21:52 GMT
I actually joined this forum today to comment on this! Actually I’m a returning member from many moons ago.
I agree broadly with the OP but I would add the following which hasn’t been said much hence the burning desire to interrupt my working day to waste yet more time on pointless internet discussions:
Hare has a brilliant cross, amongst the best I’ve seen but he just can’t get down the wing. As far as I can see he can only be used in a 442, without overlapping FB as playing wide in a 5 he just can’t get forward. Once he gets in the right position his crossing is incredible.
I agree Upson is done. He is consistently losing the ball and dallying.
My other bugbear is Harries who seems to lollop around like an old Great Dane, vaguely chasing a ball he was once more interested in in his youth.
The final thing I wish to add is that the main problem with this team is not so much the youth, it’s the lack of physicality. The reason we can’t get out of defence is because at some point in the build up play, you need to play the ball to a player who is marked, who has men around him. This requires someone to control the ball and keep hold of it, and this team generally get muscled out and pushed off the ball.
The times we look dangerous - very dangerous, is when we have stolen the ball or are counter attacking with space. As soon as the defence is organised, we just get muscled out.
We don’t even need a goal scorer (it would be nice though) - we need a couple of players in the midfield or upfront who can hold the ball and bring the likes of Westbrooke et al into the game.
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pirate
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Post by pirate on Nov 23, 2020 15:25:17 GMT
Hare hasn't been the same player since returning from his injury.
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Post by bluebiro on Nov 23, 2020 15:34:45 GMT
I think the funniest thing about the whole Garner experiment is he ended a run of around a decade where every starting line up had an ex-Youth Team player. that is of no surprise There certainly wouldn't have been any local lads in the squad if he had carried on
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Post by toddy1953 on Nov 23, 2020 15:41:02 GMT
It’s easy to look at some & say he’s good, he’s rubbish, he’s got promise, he’s got goals in him - but it’s how we can get what is essentially a very average squad with some promise to gel as a team. For me it starts at the back, defenders need to be able to defend, we have been shocking at set pieces all season, there has been no leadership. We have a very disjointed squad - if TW has had as much imput into the squad as he implies, then I’m surprised that he was promoted instead of being sacked - unless he didn’t? I think the squad has a really weak underbelly & I hope Tisdale can sort it If I were Wael I would already be planning a root and branch review to look at every aspect of the football side at the end of the season because it’s looking like the recruitment was very poorly thought out and executed, compounded by poor managerial leadership and probably poor coaching too. I really don’t think we have any “proper football people” at the club who are capable of implementing the strategy we are trying to implement. And that’s before even answering the question of whether that strategy can be viable. Every step we take towards the execution of that strategy seems to have gone wrong. I think we have proper football people but it’s the experience in their roles for me. Apart from being at Southampton as a player I think the rest of TW experience has been lower & non league, whilst Martin Starnes seems to have done the rounds of clubs in the West Country. We all know Tisdale’s background too. im not saying for one minute it’s an essential requirement- DC did it. But I think his philosophy was getting players in with the right attitude first & foremost. We seem to have gone completely opposite now, which why in my view there is this soft underbelly that, for me, is up to Tisdale to identify & address. Where we have recruited in experience , in Tom Gorringe there has been excellent improvement (all though some would say it couldn’t have got any worse 😁)
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Post by gasandelectricity on Nov 23, 2020 15:50:28 GMT
Hare hasn't been the same player since returning from his injury. But we’re also saying the same about Alfie and that he hasn’t been the same this season. Nothing to do with Garner and a loss of confidence is it? I think some of these players will surprise now we have a different manager in the house. But Tisdale can’t impact this overnight it might take a few games.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2020 16:24:25 GMT
If I were Wael I would already be planning a root and branch review to look at every aspect of the football side at the end of the season because it’s looking like the recruitment was very poorly thought out and executed, compounded by poor managerial leadership and probably poor coaching too. I really don’t think we have any “proper football people” at the club who are capable of implementing the strategy we are trying to implement. And that’s before even answering the question of whether that strategy can be viable. Every step we take towards the execution of that strategy seems to have gone wrong. I think we have proper football people but it’s the experience in their roles for me. Apart from being at Southampton as a player I think the rest of TW experience has been lower & non league, whilst Martin Starnes seems to have done the rounds of clubs in the West Country. We all know Tisdale’s background too. im not saying for one minute it’s an essential requirement- DC did it. But I think his philosophy was getting players in with the right attitude first & foremost. We seem to have gone completely opposite now, which why in my view there is this soft underbelly that, for me, is up to Tisdale to identify & address. Where we have recruited in experience , in Tom Gorringe there has been excellent improvement (all though some would say it couldn’t have got any worse 😁) Axegas mentioned Fleetwood and Peterborough as examples of teams who bring in good youngsters to sell on. I guess what I’m asking is is our scouting in the same class as theirs?
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Post by Gassy on Nov 23, 2020 16:26:00 GMT
I think we have proper football people but it’s the experience in their roles for me. Apart from being at Southampton as a player I think the rest of TW experience has been lower & non league, whilst Martin Starnes seems to have done the rounds of clubs in the West Country. We all know Tisdale’s background too. im not saying for one minute it’s an essential requirement- DC did it. But I think his philosophy was getting players in with the right attitude first & foremost. We seem to have gone completely opposite now, which why in my view there is this soft underbelly that, for me, is up to Tisdale to identify & address. Where we have recruited in experience , in Tom Gorringe there has been excellent improvement (all though some would say it couldn’t have got any worse 😁) Axegas mentioned Fleetwood and Peterborough as examples of teams who bring in good youngsters to sell on. I guess what I’m asking is is our scouting in the same class as theirs? The recent youngsters who joined, are they Ben's signings or TW's?
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Post by curlywurly on Nov 23, 2020 16:31:03 GMT
Hare hasn't been the same player since returning from his injury. I don't think that is just about him though. A lot of his game is based on getting down the flank and delivering teasing crosses from around the edge of the box and arriving at the back post for crosses from the left. He needs confidence in those around him to do this and ensure that he is not going to be exposed.
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Post by bluebiro on Nov 23, 2020 16:42:08 GMT
Hare hasn't been the same player since returning from his injury. I don't think that is just about him though. A lot of his game is based on getting down the flank and delivering teasing crosses from around the edge of the box and arriving at the back post for crosses from the left. He needs confidence in those around him to do this and ensure that he is not going to be exposed. hopefully rodman back will help not only hare but the team by making it more solid down one flank. Allowing.him to venture knowing Rodman will cover him
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2020 16:49:31 GMT
Axegas mentioned Fleetwood and Peterborough as examples of teams who bring in good youngsters to sell on. I guess what I’m asking is is our scouting in the same class as theirs? The recent youngsters who joined, are they Ben's signings or TW's? Who knows, what would TW’s remit be though if he’s not the one in charge of identifying players? Negotiating contracts? Is that a full time role? For me, if you’re going to go with relying heavily on youth you sell on a core pillar of that has to be the scouting and it must require quite a lot of investment. The failure rate of young footballers is astronomically high, few make it in the professional game and if they are going to make up a good 50% of your team you can’t afford to have a hit and miss success rate. That’s why I wonder whether we have the infrastructure behind the scenes to be able to go down this route, nevermind throwing in inexperienced managers and coaches on top.
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Post by Okebournegas on Nov 23, 2020 17:59:47 GMT
I still think the idea is a sound one and I'm happy that it's the direction our club is heading in. If we have the right person managing the young squad I can live with us being relegated this season. We simply have to be sustainable or we will cease to be. I'm glad WAQ is brave enough and has the vision to deliver this. We have to hold our nerve. Totally agree , 👌👍👏👏👏👏
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Post by Dirt Dogg on Nov 23, 2020 18:44:33 GMT
We’ve got an actual football manager in charge now, I think results will improve over the next few weeks.
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pirate
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Post by pirate on Nov 23, 2020 18:58:28 GMT
Hare hasn't been the same player since returning from his injury. But we’re also saying the same about Alfie and that he hasn’t been the same this season. Nothing to do with Garner and a loss of confidence is it? I think some of these players will surprise now we have a different manager in the house. But Tisdale can’t impact this overnight it might take a few games. Shouldn't prevent you from passing the ball 5 or or 10 yards accurately to a teammate, which Alfie seems incapable of doing on a consistent basis.
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Post by playtowin on Nov 23, 2020 18:59:42 GMT
I think to do well in this league you need 2 players in midfield who will tackle and bully and run around closing down a lot. That allows the flair players in the team to do what they do best. Win the midfield battle and you run the game.
Which is why with only Grant and possibly liddle as defensive midfielders and only Hargreaves as a run around type the squad seems weak and easily over run. This is why upson has found himself in the team as he has some defensive abilities. When Grant reaches his yellow card limit the team is screwed.
It may be that with a midfield 3 we will need to see someone like Tutonda change roles.
The best success rovers have had in league one this century was with clarke/ogogo/another. Or pritchard/mauge/another.
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pirate
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Post by pirate on Nov 23, 2020 19:12:36 GMT
I think to do well in this league you need 2 players in midfield who will tackle and bully and run around closing down a lot. That allows the flair players in the team to do what they do best. Win the midfield battle and you run the game. Which is why with only Grant and possibly liddle as defensive midfielders and only Hargreaves as a run around type the squad seems weak and easily over run. This is why upson has found himself in the team as he has some defensive abilities. When Grant reaches his yellow card limit the team is screwed. It may be that with a midfield 3 we will need to see someone like Tutonda change roles. The best success rovers have had in league one this century was with clarke/ogogo/another. Or pritchard/mauge/another. I wouldn't describe Reece Brown and Jack Taylor as players who just "tackle and bully and run around closing down a lot." Both are good footballers capable of playing, scoring a goal and creating. Peterborough are in an automatic promotion place.
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