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Post by gasandelectricity on Feb 13, 2021 13:12:55 GMT
One of our exhalted friends is keen to point out that Garner achieved 1.38 PPG over his last 8 games. When you go online looking for these stats, in my experience they don't always consistently show league only or all competitions which can make comparison difficult. This has encouraged me to do some comparative statistics between Paul Tisdale and Ben Garner's tenures as manager, by taking out results from Wikipedia for this season in all competitions, plus Garners tenure as manager in the league last season (because I got bored and couldn't be bothered to do the whole hog). I have cut this in many forms. From Total Tenure, to Current Season to Date (relevant mostly to BG of course), to last 8 and last 6 games. I have also prepared season to date figures, which is an interesting way at looking at Garners form too. Some interesting findings are that both managers had a win ratio of 19% in the league at the point of dismissal as Bristol Rovers manager. However, Paul Tisdale had a slightly worse PPG than Garner at 0.75 to Garner's 0.85. Extrapolate this over 46 games and both would almost certainly get us relegated with 39 (BG) and 35 (PT) points. Some say take a look at Garner's season to date. Yes this was vastly improved and results in a points per game of 1.09. This would see us get 50 points over the course of the season. So we may very well have escaped relegation under a full season of Garner. However, is that good enough? I'd wager not. The board clearly agreed. What about the last few games of their tenures? PTs form was so terrible it isn't worth mentioning. BG did achieve 1.38 over his last 8 games, a win ratio of 0.38 and a 46 game extrapolation of 63. However, that is overshadowed by looking at the last 6 specifically, where this drops to 0.83,0.17 and 38 points respectively. I think from my perspective it's fair to say neither manager was performing, even if you consider the most recent games to look for a matter of progress. Does PTs poor performance make BG a better manager? Perhaps statistically, but overall, both managers will go down as some of the worst performing managers in the history of our club. ![](//storage.proboards.com/5848383/thumbnailer/dp0NGrKGyTrFYLtVKMnF.png) You can hopefully download my 'homework' here if you wish to see it for transparency sake. Garner Vs Tisdale.xlsx (17.48 KB) Hopefully we can discuss this here and draw a line under the discussion of Garner's points per game and move on.
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Post by CrispPusher on Feb 13, 2021 13:15:38 GMT
We were 4th when Garner took over and he left us 4th from bottom he is the worst ever. End of discussion.
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Post by gasandelectricity on Feb 13, 2021 13:16:54 GMT
We were 4th when Garner took over and he left us 4th from bottom he is the worst ever. End of discussion. I agree. Some like to argue otherwise though.
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Post by Gas Go Marching In on Feb 13, 2021 13:16:54 GMT
One of our exhalted friends is keen to point out that Garner achieved 1.38 PPG over his last 8 games. When you go online looking for these stats, in my experience they don't always consistently show league only or all competitions which can make comparison difficult. This has encouraged me to do some comparative statistics between Paul Tisdale and Ben Garner's tenures as manager, by taking out results from Wikipedia for this season in all competitions, plus Garners tenure as manager in the league last season (because I got bored and couldn't be bothered to do the whole hog). I have cut this in many forms. From Total Tenure, to Current Season to Date (relevant mostly to BG of course), to last 8 and last 6 games. I have also prepared season to date figures, which is an interesting way at looking at Garners form too. Some interesting findings are that both managers had a win ratio of 19% in the league at the point of dismissal as Bristol Rovers manager. However, Paul Tisdale had a slightly worse PPG than Garner at 0.75 to Garner's 0.85. Extrapolate this over 46 games and both would almost certainly get us relegated with 39 (BG) and 35 (PT) points. Some say take a look at Garner's season to date. Yes this was vastly improved and results in a points per game of 1.09. This would see us get 50 points over the course of the season. So we may very well have escaped relegation under a full season of Garner. However, is that good enough? I'd wager not. The board clearly agreed. What about the last few games of their tenures? PTs form was so terrible it isn't worth mentioning. BG did achieve 1.38 over his last 8 games, a win ratio of 0.38 and a 46 game extrapolation of 63. However, that is overshadowed by looking at the last 6 specifically, where this drops to 0.83,0.17 and 38 points respectively. I think from my perspective it's fair to say neither manager was performing, even if you consider the most recent games to look for a matter of progress. Does PTs poor performance make BG a better manager? Perhaps statistically, but overall, both managers will go down as some of the worst performing managers in the history of our club. View AttachmentYou can hopefully download my 'homework' here if you wish to see it for transparency sake. View AttachmentHopefully we can discuss this here and draw a line under the discussion of Garner's points per game and move on. Both spells were poor. One thing the stats doesn't show though is that BG took voer a confident team in 4th and was allowed to overhaul the squad to bring his players in. Tisdale never got that opportunity.
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Post by 69rovers on Feb 13, 2021 13:18:41 GMT
Both a waste of space - move on
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Post by Big Jock on Feb 13, 2021 13:18:53 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2021 13:20:52 GMT
Needless post.
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Post by gasandelectricity on Feb 13, 2021 13:23:06 GMT
Tell Carlts that. He mentions 1.38ppg in every other post. This is an attempt to put this to bed.
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Post by Gas-Ed on Feb 13, 2021 13:30:12 GMT
I think Garner is more to blame that Tisdale. Tisdale walked in to a losing dressing room with as much firepower as a spud gun. Did he get the best out of this group? Time will tell. If a new manager comes in and it’s the same story I will absolutely be looking at the players first. If 3 managers fail to get a tune out of them you have to doubt whether they are good enough.
I absolutely believe that Tisdale’s sacking was the right thing, as relegation was nailed on. We may well still go down but at least we have a hope that the new gaffer will get some better performances out of the players. Both Garner and Tisdale failed.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2021 13:31:40 GMT
We were 4th when Garner took over and he left us 4th from bottom he is the worst ever. End of discussion. Works for me
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Post by axegas on Feb 13, 2021 13:32:10 GMT
Honestly posts like this that tell others that their posts are needless, are the real needless posts on the forum. Thanks Gasandelectricity, interesting thread.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2021 13:33:38 GMT
One of our exhalted friends is keen to point out that Garner achieved 1.38 PPG over his last 8 games. When you go online looking for these stats, in my experience they don't always consistently show league only or all competitions which can make comparison difficult. This has encouraged me to do some comparative statistics between Paul Tisdale and Ben Garner's tenures as manager, by taking out results from Wikipedia for this season in all competitions, plus Garners tenure as manager in the league last season (because I got bored and couldn't be bothered to do the whole hog). I have cut this in many forms. From Total Tenure, to Current Season to Date (relevant mostly to BG of course), to last 8 and last 6 games. I have also prepared season to date figures, which is an interesting way at looking at Garners form too. Some interesting findings are that both managers had a win ratio of 19% in the league at the point of dismissal as Bristol Rovers manager. However, Paul Tisdale had a slightly worse PPG than Garner at 0.75 to Garner's 0.85. Extrapolate this over 46 games and both would almost certainly get us relegated with 39 (BG) and 35 (PT) points. Some say take a look at Garner's season to date. Yes this was vastly improved and results in a points per game of 1.09. This would see us get 50 points over the course of the season. So we may very well have escaped relegation under a full season of Garner. However, is that good enough? I'd wager not. The board clearly agreed. What about the last few games of their tenures? PTs form was so terrible it isn't worth mentioning. BG did achieve 1.38 over his last 8 games, a win ratio of 0.38 and a 46 game extrapolation of 63. However, that is overshadowed by looking at the last 6 specifically, where this drops to 0.83,0.17 and 38 points respectively. I think from my perspective it's fair to say neither manager was performing, even if you consider the most recent games to look for a matter of progress. Does PTs poor performance make BG a better manager? Perhaps statistically, but overall, both managers will go down as some of the worst performing managers in the history of our club. View AttachmentYou can hopefully download my 'homework' here if you wish to see it for transparency sake. View AttachmentHopefully we can discuss this here and draw a line under the discussion of Garner's points per game and move on. Both spells were poor. One thing the stats doesn't show though is that BG took voer a confident team in 4th and was allowed to overhaul the squad to bring his players in. Tisdale never got that opportunity. Yeah that’s a very important point. Let’s not lose sight of the fact that both managers might have used different methods but what was eventually produced by both of them was your garden variety sh** sandwich, nothing more nothing less. What were the common denominators between both manager’s failures? Hmm....
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Post by Gas Go Marching In on Feb 13, 2021 13:36:56 GMT
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Post by Icegas on Feb 13, 2021 13:50:17 GMT
We were 4th when Garner took over and he left us 4th from bottom he is the worst ever. End of discussion. 1000% right! Anyone that thinks BG was better than PT needs there heads read! BG took a top 4 side and broke it up and created his own side that ended up in the bottom Four in less than a year! The reason we are in this position right now is down to him and his recruitment in the last year. Under BG it was the worse, souless tippy tappy football that I have seen in my life.BG should NEVER had been in a dugout as manager of a football league club, let alone one of our size! PT's small run here was bad and he could not turn the tide around and get anything out of this awlful/ unbalanced squad that we have. I saw it in his eyes about a month ago that he was lost and didn't have a clue how to turn it around and looked a broken man.Given how results were he was correct in the modern day football world to have lost his job. I don't blame PT for where we are, it was just a job he couldn't do by picking up the awlful job of our past manager. PT has a proven record as a L2 manager.Not good enough for us, but in a different league to BG. BG is our worst Manager EVER!!!!
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Post by bridgwatergas on Feb 13, 2021 14:26:50 GMT
There's alot to think about in all of this as Garner was bought in here to transform the squad and help make the club to become more sustainable. This project was what Wael wanted so I disagree with the people who say he dispanded a team that was 4th. Alot of this was down to players on contracts that were running out and were on high wages allegedly and remember we tried to keep Ollie Clarke but decided to leave and JCH wanted to move on as well. This was a project that was always going to take time as we started the season with basically a totally new squad which would take a couple of seasons to gel history of other teams overhauling there squad will tell you that. The reaction of most on here and other forms of social media was of excitement of these signings but with any signing there is no guarantees they would all be a success. We had a tough set of fixtures to start of with especially when the team would need a few competitive games to settle and to be honest they were not as bad as some make out and when the fixtures became a little easier our points returns started to improve. There was always going to be bumps in the road and the Fleetwood performance which ended in Garner getting the sack was poor but for me not worthy of sacking a manager unlike the Accrington performance which was a total disgrace. The players bought in wanted to join and were impressed with Garners style and views of how to play the game and I believe with time and a couple of additions in January would have seen us have a comfortable season without the relegation battle we find ourselves in. They also never downed tools and didn't want to play for him there was commitment every game. I know I will get slated for this but it's my opinion and I don't lay this all on BG he was bought here to overhaul the club and wasn't given the necessary time that would take to do this it could never have been an overnight project.
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Post by seanclevedongas on Feb 13, 2021 15:02:07 GMT
Honestly posts like this that tell others that their posts are needless, are the real needless posts on the forum. Thanks Gasandelectricity, interesting thread. No, posts complaining about people pointing out needless posts are the needless posts
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Post by Gassy on Feb 13, 2021 15:14:17 GMT
Great work G&E. Interesting statistics and thanks for putting it together. QQ though, didn’t Garner only have 12 league games this season? Or am I imagining that?
Personally I think Wael should just hire Tisdale as manager and Garner as assistant. Dream team
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Post by gasandelectricity on Feb 13, 2021 15:22:25 GMT
Great work G&E. Interesting statistics and thanks for putting it together. QQ though, didn’t Garner only have 12 league games this season? Or am I imagining that? Personally I think Wael should just hire Tisdale as manager and Garner as assistant. Dream team I make it 11 league fixtures. 14 cup but I think I may be missing the carabao cup. He was fired 14th nov after fleetwood and 11v11 make it 11 fixtures on the 15th nov that had been completed in their historical league table. www.11v11.com/league-tables/league-one/15-november-2020/
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Post by curlywurly on Feb 13, 2021 15:22:58 GMT
I think from my perspective it's fair to say neither manager was performing, even if you consider the most recent games to look for a matter of progress. Does PTs poor performance make BG a better manager? Perhaps statistically, but overall, both managers will go down as some of the worst performing managers in the history of our club.
Thanks G&E.
Possibly two of the extrapolations under Garner have us just surviving. No where near under Tisdale.
I conclude the same as Jock and just hope for better under a new manager.
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Post by Icegas on Feb 13, 2021 15:26:35 GMT
There's alot to think about in all of this as Garner was bought in here to transform the squad and help make the club to become more sustainable. This project was what Wael wanted so I disagree with the people who say he dispanded a team that was 4th. Alot of this was down to players on contracts that were running out and were on high wages allegedly and remember we tried to keep Ollie Clarke but decided to leave and JCH wanted to move on as well. This was a project that was always going to take time as we started the season with basically a totally new squad which would take a couple of seasons to gel history of other teams overhauling there squad will tell you that. The reaction of most on here and other forms of social media was of excitement of these signings but with any signing there is no guarantees they would all be a success. We had a tough set of fixtures to start of with especially when the team would need a few competitive games to settle and to be honest they were not as bad as some make out and when the fixtures became a little easier our points returns started to improve. There was always going to be bumps in the road and the Fleetwood performance which ended in Garner getting the sack was poor but for me not worthy of sacking a manager unlike the Accrington performance which was a total disgrace. The players bought in wanted to join and were impressed with Garners style and views of how to play the game and I believe with time and a couple of additions in January would have seen us have a comfortable season without the relegation battle we find ourselves in. They also never downed tools and didn't want to play for him there was commitment every game. I know I will get slated for this but it's my opinion and I don't lay this all on BG he was bought here to overhaul the club and wasn't given the necessary time that would take to do this it could never have been an overnight project. While I made my above comments about BG/PT I do agree with some on what you just said. I've got no problem with our club having a long term vision, and a style of play that they want us to have,and I hope that they continue with this and have our next manager with this in mind when interviewing. Not a yes man, but there's no reason you would bring in Sam allardyce type if you want to play like Real Madrid long term. I wouldn't mind a Pulis type until the end of the season tho to stay up. My problem is that BG was just out of his depth. A rookie manager that showed no potential for growth as a manager.He talked in riddles and used modern day football terms that made no sense.He was passionless and boring. PT wasn't much better but had ait of bite about him and had a proven record of doing as similar role at Exeter that we were asking from him.The job was too big for him to turn around by using this group of players.
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