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Post by bridgwatergas on Feb 14, 2021 8:40:41 GMT
Probably worth mentioning 3 of Ben Garner's 5 wins came against 10 men. Blackpool, Northampton and Lincoln. You can mention that all you like in these games were they sent off for one reckless challenge or 2 yellow cards? If memory serves me right all were 2 yellows and were down to us playing well and putting pressure on the team resulting in fouls that merited cards. I don't and will not buy into the 10 men excuse it happens for a reason. Also wasn't it a massive talking point on here how we never beat 10 men and look poor against teams that then set up more defensively and we can't break them down.
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Post by Jomo on Feb 14, 2021 8:45:31 GMT
It’s like asking to choose who you preferred, Hitler or Mussolini. Haha, I thought similar myself. Tisdale has done wonders for Garner's reputation with some, just as Hitler did wonders for the reputation of Kaiser Wilhelm II. Both crackpots.
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Post by bridgwatergas on Feb 14, 2021 8:56:37 GMT
Ref o p... I like how this thread is trying to put to bed some of the salient stat points that have hijacked some of the other threads. For me: BG took over a 5 year hard work promotion potential club, and devastatingly turned it into a relegation threatened woeful squad within three quarters of a season. He was rightly removed, too late imo. I drew my line after Southend away (a modern Braintree) and if had been removed during the first lockdown, we would have had more options of new manager Clough/Cotterill/Rowett/Mick McCarthy (!). It also didn't help that BG post match comments were at times frankly bizarre and alot of the fan base didn't warm to that, even though at most matches (especially away) he was roundly welcomed into the pitch by the paying fan. BG appointment and subsequent awful failure has put us back years. Tis appointment I tepidly supported, wasn't my choice, but at the time I saw as potential improvement. His January transfer window was one of the worse in club's recent memory. He was rightly removed due to horrendous run in form, albeit with not his squad but he done nothing to change it. It's a shame, but there was no improvement. It leaves me with no confidence that anyone can turn this mostly under performing squad around from destined relegation, whomever comes in, whatever stats you quote. But I've agreed with the board decision to remove managers this season, so the club has my support. Yet again a very poor post blaming BG for what happened and not seeing the bigger picture. He didnt come in and just get rid of everyone it was part of a plan from higher up to try and make the club more sustainable but you don't see that. If this wasn't done I fear we would have no club left after Covid as losses were bad enough then with players on contracts that were quite frankly absurd,remember we are still paying KB who was not BG signing this was a problem that was created back in the DC days. I have posted earlier and can't be bothered to go explain it all again. To blame all this on Garner is ridiculous and very short sighted.
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Post by mariobalotelli on Feb 14, 2021 8:56:43 GMT
We were 4th when Garner took over and he left us 4th from bottom he is the worst ever. End of discussion. 1000% right! Anyone that thinks BG was better than PT needs there heads read! BG took a top 4 side and broke it up and created his own side that ended up in the bottom Four in less than a year! The reason we are in this position right now is down to him and his recruitment in the last year. Under BG it was the worse, souless tippy tappy football that I have seen in my life.BG should NEVER had been in a dugout as manager of a football league club, let alone one of our size! PT's small run here was bad and he could not turn the tide around and get anything out of this awlful/ unbalanced squad that we have. I saw it in his eyes about a month ago that he was lost and didn't have a clue how to turn it around and looked a broken man.Given how results were he was correct in the modern day football world to have lost his job. I don't blame PT for where we are, it was just a job he couldn't do by picking up the awlful job of our past manager. PT has a proven record as a L2 manager.Not good enough for us, but in a different league to BG. BG is our worst Manager EVER!!!! Loool the whole “especially a club of our size” bollocks is funny. Half of league one are bigger than us. We are not a big club at this level.
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Post by bridgwatergas on Feb 14, 2021 9:00:09 GMT
1000% right! Anyone that thinks BG was better than PT needs there heads read! BG took a top 4 side and broke it up and created his own side that ended up in the bottom Four in less than a year! The reason we are in this position right now is down to him and his recruitment in the last year. Under BG it was the worse, souless tippy tappy football that I have seen in my life.BG should NEVER had been in a dugout as manager of a football league club, let alone one of our size! PT's small run here was bad and he could not turn the tide around and get anything out of this awlful/ unbalanced squad that we have. I saw it in his eyes about a month ago that he was lost and didn't have a clue how to turn it around and looked a broken man.Given how results were he was correct in the modern day football world to have lost his job. I don't blame PT for where we are, it was just a job he couldn't do by picking up the awlful job of our past manager. PT has a proven record as a L2 manager.Not good enough for us, but in a different league to BG. BG is our worst Manager EVER!!!! Loool the whole “especially a club of our size” bollocks is funny. Half of league one are bigger than us. We are not a big club at this level. You are spot on we are not a big club we are a club with big potential that will only fulfill it when we get modern day facilities.
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Post by Topper Gas on Feb 14, 2021 9:04:07 GMT
1000% right! Anyone that thinks BG was better than PT needs there heads read! BG took a top 4 side and broke it up and created his own side that ended up in the bottom Four in less than a year! The reason we are in this position right now is down to him and his recruitment in the last year. Under BG it was the worse, souless tippy tappy football that I have seen in my life.BG should NEVER had been in a dugout as manager of a football league club, let alone one of our size! PT's small run here was bad and he could not turn the tide around and get anything out of this awlful/ unbalanced squad that we have. I saw it in his eyes about a month ago that he was lost and didn't have a clue how to turn it around and looked a broken man.Given how results were he was correct in the modern day football world to have lost his job. I don't blame PT for where we are, it was just a job he couldn't do by picking up the awlful job of our past manager. PT has a proven record as a L2 manager.Not good enough for us, but in a different league to BG. BG is our worst Manager EVER!!!! Loool the whole “especially a club of our size” bollocks is funny. Half of league one are bigger than us. We are not a big club. Is that really the case, what other club's owners have written off a £20m debt this season, or any recent season? I can't understand how our managers keep failing, we've even got a decent training pitches now, with a reasonable playing budget, surely even a half decent lower league manager could do the job?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2021 9:07:13 GMT
Some great stats here and shows that depending on your view point you can manipulate numbers to support any argument. Those who support BG will always argue in his favour and those who don’t similarly with both bringing up additional points to defend their position (e.g. wins were less relevant because they were only against 10 men or certain loses are less relevant because they were in a settling in period)... reality is, is that both BG and PT did not deliver the performances or results that were expected by the board and to be frank a lot of the fan base based upon the investment made by Wael in signing all those new players etc.
FWIW I think both managers were sacked possibly too early as both have had mitigating factors impacting their performances/results but at the same time I can understand why (especially in PTs situation after Accrington and also the comments he made after Oxford about our forwards (whether they were true or not). For BG, results more generally had got better as the season went on but the style of football was very side to side and lacking penetration and there were times where we just didn’t look as if there was any urgency and it was quite stale. Also the fan base wasn’t warming to him...
Do I think either manager would have kept us up? Yes but only by the skin of our teeth and to be fair during the summer months that wasn’t what I was expecting from this squad. Also, for whatever reason, both managers have hugely divided the fan base (if this forum is any indicator) and even with GC it was divided despite his fantastic performance for us. The only manager who really had the full backing (some exceptions I appreciate) of the fan base was DC and even he had a rough ride at the start.
So for me, based upon the forums needs I think our next manager has to be experienced and had success in promotions at League 1 and above level, needs to play attacking and attractive football, needs to be passionate and emotional on the sidelines shouting away during games, needs to wear a tracksuit, needs to be completely honest and transparent in interviews and about transfers, not have any negative history and needs to be winning home games and at least drawing away games and deliver PPG of at around 2 PPG .....No mean feat and I’m not sure there is anyone that fits the bill that is realistic and available....
Personally, I think we should draw a line on looking back and arguing about managers who are no longer part of the club and instead think about how we can support our next manager (whomever it is) , support the club and take positive action to unite as a fan base and create a sense of positivity ..... I am a firm believer in that if you think positive, positive things will happen....
Many won’t agree with my ramblings, I know, and that is their prerogative but this constant bickering we are seeing lately is spiralling the forum into negativity.....with Big Jocks and Greg’s culinary exploits our only saving grace!
UTG!
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Post by Topper Gas on Feb 14, 2021 9:08:43 GMT
Ref o p... I like how this thread is trying to put to bed some of the salient stat points that have hijacked some of the other threads. For me: BG took over a 5 year hard work promotion potential club, and devastatingly turned it into a relegation threatened woeful squad within three quarters of a season. He was rightly removed, too late imo. I drew my line after Southend away (a modern Braintree) and if had been removed during the first lockdown, we would have had more options of new manager Clough/Cotterill/Rowett/Mick McCarthy (!). It also didn't help that BG post match comments were at times frankly bizarre and alot of the fan base didn't warm to that, even though at most matches (especially away) he was roundly welcomed into the pitch by the paying fan. BG appointment and subsequent awful failure has put us back years. Tis appointment I tepidly supported, wasn't my choice, but at the time I saw as potential improvement. His January transfer window was one of the worse in club's recent memory. He was rightly removed due to horrendous run in form, albeit with not his squad but he done nothing to change it. It's a shame, but there was no improvement. It leaves me with no confidence that anyone can turn this mostly under performing squad around from destined relegation, whomever comes in, whatever stats you quote. But I've agreed with the board decision to remove managers this season, so the club has my support. Yet again a very poor post blaming BG for what happened and not seeing the bigger picture. He didnt come in and just get rid of everyone it was part of a plan from higher up to try and make the club more sustainable but you don't see that. If this wasn't done I fear we would have no club left after Covid as losses were bad enough then with players on contracts that were quite frankly absurd,remember we are still paying KB who was not BG signing this was a problem that was created back in the DC days. I have posted earlier and can't be bothered to go explain it all again. To blame all this on Garner is ridiculous and very short sighted. I don't need a decent eyesight to know Garner has created the problems, if we get relegated this season he'll always be known as the manager who took a top 6 chasing side to a relegation side in one season, regardless of a couple of random Gaschat posters trying to suggest otherwise.
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Post by bridgwatergas on Feb 14, 2021 9:18:27 GMT
Yet again a very poor post blaming BG for what happened and not seeing the bigger picture. He didnt come in and just get rid of everyone it was part of a plan from higher up to try and make the club more sustainable but you don't see that. If this wasn't done I fear we would have no club left after Covid as losses were bad enough then with players on contracts that were quite frankly absurd,remember we are still paying KB who was not BG signing this was a problem that was created back in the DC days. I have posted earlier and can't be bothered to go explain it all again. To blame all this on Garner is ridiculous and very short sighted. I don't need a decent eyesight to know Garner has created the problems, if we get relegated this season he'll always be known as the manager who took a top 6 chasing side to a relegation side in one season, regardless of a couple of random Gaschat posters trying to suggest otherwise. That's up to you but how can he be blamed if we get relegated we were not in the relegation zone when he got sacked and the club has had plenty of time to appoint someone to change our fortunes as this was back in November.The rushed appointment of Tisdale is a major factor in this instead of conducting a proper interviewing procedure where we probably could have got alot better.There have been plenty of mistakes made this season and for me most of these are being made from the top.
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Post by Jomo on Feb 14, 2021 9:19:58 GMT
There's alot to think about in all of this as Garner was bought in here to transform the squad and help make the club to become more sustainable. This project was what Wael wanted so I disagree with the people who say he dispanded a team that was 4th. Alot of this was down to players on contracts that were running out and were on high wages allegedly and remember we tried to keep Ollie Clarke but decided to leave and JCH wanted to move on as well. This was a project that was always going to take time as we started the season with basically a totally new squad which would take a couple of seasons to gel history of other teams overhauling there squad will tell you that. The reaction of most on here and other forms of social media was of excitement of these signings but with any signing there is no guarantees they would all be a success. We had a tough set of fixtures to start of with especially when the team would need a few competitive games to settle and to be honest they were not as bad as some make out and when the fixtures became a little easier our points returns started to improve. There was always going to be bumps in the road and the Fleetwood performance which ended in Garner getting the sack was poor but for me not worthy of sacking a manager unlike the Accrington performance which was a total disgrace. The players bought in wanted to join and were impressed with Garners style and views of how to play the game and I believe with time and a couple of additions in January would have seen us have a comfortable season without the relegation battle we find ourselves in. They also never downed tools and didn't want to play for him there was commitment every game. I know I will get slated for this but it's my opinion and I don't lay this all on BG he was bought here to overhaul the club and wasn't given the necessary time that would take to do this it could never have been an overnight project. Fantastic and very well put. If we were 10th or 12th when Garner took over I firmly believe he would still be here and our squad would be flourishing, yes with the odd bump in the road like Fleetwood, but the squad were with him and we were improving. I personally think that sacking has set us back 5 years as a club. On this you may have a point. I'm not sure I agree with it, but I can at least respect your view on it, but we'll never know. Where you lose credibility is trying to warp the stats to suit your argument. It doesn't wash, hence why G&E took the time to make this thread. Your view on it might be something that I can buy into, but the trouble is, BG did have plenty of time and if his results were a bit closer to average, sacking him would have been a travesty. However, you have to draw a line somewhere. Despite his best intentions and the fact he was brought in to change the ethos of the club, there was too much risk in continuing with him when we were not showing tangible improvement in results or performances. His post match press conferences did him no favours either as he was always dishonest which is just a slap in the face to those watching, and it made his position progressively more untenable. It was normally either the refs' fault, or we supposedly played well because we had more possession than the other team. Which means diddly squat if that possession is in your own third. If he had the humility to admit where the team was failing and show willing to turn it around, us fans and the board might have been willing to give him more time.
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Post by bridgwatergas on Feb 14, 2021 9:34:01 GMT
Fantastic and very well put. If we were 10th or 12th when Garner took over I firmly believe he would still be here and our squad would be flourishing, yes with the odd bump in the road like Fleetwood, but the squad were with him and we were improving. I personally think that sacking has set us back 5 years as a club. On this you may have a point. I'm not sure I agree with it, but I can at least respect your view on it, but we'll never know. Where you lose credibility is trying to warp the stats to suit your argument. It doesn't wash, hence why G&E took the time to make this thread. Your view on it might be something that I can buy into, but the trouble is, BG did have plenty of time and if his results were a bit closer to average, sacking him would have been a travesty. However, you have to draw a line somewhere. Despite his best intentions and the fact he was brought in to change the ethos of the club, there was too much risk in continuing with him when we were not showing tangible improvement in results or performances. His post match press conferences did him no favours either as he was always dishonest which is just a slap in the face to those watching, and it made his position progressively more untenable. It was normally either the refs' fault, or we supposedly played well because we had more possession than the other team. Which means diddly squat if that possession is in your own third. If he had the humility to admit where the team was failing and show willing to turn it around, us fans and the board might have been willing to give him more time. Thanks for the response I'm not and never will say BG would have led us to being a successful league 1/championship side and I agree some of his interviews were a bit strange but I always had the view he was new to this and raw and would make mistakes and some of the things he said back that up it came from frustration and inexperience with dealing with those kind of situations. When sacked he had Swindon and Wigan as his next 2 games which for me was exactly the wrong time to sack him,just look at the points return and performances from those 2 games against at the time teams that were quite frankly rubbish,and we managed a massive 1 point out of those games. If BG had not picked up at least 4 from them I would probably have started to turn against him.
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Post by o2o2bo2ba on Feb 14, 2021 9:50:56 GMT
Ref o p... I like how this thread is trying to put to bed some of the salient stat points that have hijacked some of the other threads. For me: BG took over a 5 year hard work promotion potential club, and devastatingly turned it into a relegation threatened woeful squad within three quarters of a season. He was rightly removed, too late imo. I drew my line after Southend away (a modern Braintree) and if had been removed during the first lockdown, we would have had more options of new manager Clough/Cotterill/Rowett/Mick McCarthy (!). It also didn't help that BG post match comments were at times frankly bizarre and alot of the fan base didn't warm to that, even though at most matches (especially away) he was roundly welcomed into the pitch by the paying fan. BG appointment and subsequent awful failure has put us back years. Tis appointment I tepidly supported, wasn't my choice, but at the time I saw as potential improvement. His January transfer window was one of the worse in club's recent memory. He was rightly removed due to horrendous run in form, albeit with not his squad but he done nothing to change it. It's a shame, but there was no improvement. It leaves me with no confidence that anyone can turn this mostly under performing squad around from destined relegation, whomever comes in, whatever stats you quote. But I've agreed with the board decision to remove managers this season, so the club has my support. Yet again a very poor post blaming BG for what happened and not seeing the bigger picture. He didnt come in and just get rid of everyone it was part of a plan from higher up to try and make the club more sustainable but you don't see that. If this wasn't done I fear we would have no club left after Covid as losses were bad enough then with players on contracts that were quite frankly absurd,remember we are still paying KB who was not BG signing this was a problem that was created back in the DC days. I have posted earlier and can't be bothered to go explain it all again. To blame all this on Garner is ridiculous and very short sighted. KB and TN were correctly identified by BG and invited to pursue their careers elsewhere, I've given credit for this and probably only decision I've agreed with from BG. Both were downfalls of DC. Big picture and sustainability at what cost? Relegation? Would that have been acceptable? The "contracts absurd" would easily have been covered by promotion to the Championship and all the funds that generates. It would easily have paid for itself. BG has put us back years. It was a nice idea to play tippy tappy start no striker football. But in an uncompromising, physical, 3rd division without replacing JCH we are doomed to repeat the Lambo lesson by starting the season with one recognised striker at this level, with the rest rookies and left wondering where our goals are going to come from!?
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Post by o2o2bo2ba on Feb 14, 2021 9:57:15 GMT
On this you may have a point. I'm not sure I agree with it, but I can at least respect your view on it, but we'll never know. Where you lose credibility is trying to warp the stats to suit your argument. It doesn't wash, hence why G&E took the time to make this thread. Your view on it might be something that I can buy into, but the trouble is, BG did have plenty of time and if his results were a bit closer to average, sacking him would have been a travesty. However, you have to draw a line somewhere. Despite his best intentions and the fact he was brought in to change the ethos of the club, there was too much risk in continuing with him when we were not showing tangible improvement in results or performances. His post match press conferences did him no favours either as he was always dishonest which is just a slap in the face to those watching, and it made his position progressively more untenable. It was normally either the refs' fault, or we supposedly played well because we had more possession than the other team. Which means diddly squat if that possession is in your own third. If he had the humility to admit where the team was failing and show willing to turn it around, us fans and the board might have been willing to give him more time. When sacked he had Swindon and Wigan as his next 2 games which for me was exactly the wrong time to sack him,just look at the points return and performances from those 2 games against at the time teams that were quite frankly rubbish,and we managed a massive 1 point out of those games. I think this was the best time to sack BG if you're giving the new manager the best chance to for an easy start. Just a shame it didn't work out that way.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2021 9:59:28 GMT
Yet again a very poor post blaming BG for what happened and not seeing the bigger picture. He didnt come in and just get rid of everyone it was part of a plan from higher up to try and make the club more sustainable but you don't see that. If this wasn't done I fear we would have no club left after Covid as losses were bad enough then with players on contracts that were quite frankly absurd,remember we are still paying KB who was not BG signing this was a problem that was created back in the DC days. I have posted earlier and can't be bothered to go explain it all again. To blame all this on Garner is ridiculous and very short sighted. I don't need a decent eyesight to know Garner has created the problems, if we get relegated this season he'll always be known as the manager who took a top 6 chasing side to a relegation side in one season, regardless of a couple of random Gaschat posters trying to suggest otherwise. So you blame DC for taking us down to the conference?
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Post by Strange Gas on Feb 14, 2021 9:59:41 GMT
"Essentially Tisdale had a poisoned chalice" but until COVID stuck the club he'd won 3 matches and we looked to be heading for at least a mid table finish? After COVID form seemed to revert back to pre Tisdale standards, the MK Dons performance being a shocker. If the squad is so poor how did it manage to win 3 games in a week, and also earlier in the season win at Lincoln and almost beat Peterborough recently, and why does TW feel it's still good enough to stay up? yep, get you thinking about squad stats. Was interesting to hear TW quoting number of league starts vs Crewe, effectively saying we had superior league experience so isn’t about the players. You can see why the guy that recruited them might say that, but does make you wonder how we are assessing player quality. These manager stats may show BG marginally better at getting something out of pretty much the identical set of ingredients. But you’ve gotta wonder if it’s our squad that’s f**ked, not the manager
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Post by o2o2bo2ba on Feb 14, 2021 10:03:49 GMT
Probably worth mentioning 3 of Ben Garner's 5 wins came against 10 men. Blackpool, Northampton and Lincoln. You can mention that all you like in these games were they sent off for one reckless challenge or 2 yellow cards? If memory serves me right all were 2 yellows and were down to us playing well and putting pressure on the team resulting in fouls that merited cards. I don't and will not buy into the 10 men excuse it happens for a reason. Also wasn't it a massive talking point on here how we never beat 10 men and look poor against teams that then set up more defensively and we can't break them down. We can take Blackpool at home as an example (13 months ago). A frankly ridiculous, reckless challenge on Abs resulted in a red card, after a mainly even game that Blackpool missed some sitters early doors. Alfie hits a wind assisted beauty from 30 yards. Ginnely gets a deflection. Hey presto, we win! A first win for BG after 14 matches.. I agree with jerry......context.
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Post by henry on Feb 14, 2021 10:05:15 GMT
1000% right! Anyone that thinks BG was better than PT needs there heads read! BG took a top 4 side and broke it up and created his own side that ended up in the bottom Four in less than a year! The reason we are in this position right now is down to him and his recruitment in the last year. Under BG it was the worse, souless tippy tappy football that I have seen in my life.BG should NEVER had been in a dugout as manager of a football league club, let alone one of our size! PT's small run here was bad and he could not turn the tide around and get anything out of this awlful/ unbalanced squad that we have. I saw it in his eyes about a month ago that he was lost and didn't have a clue how to turn it around and looked a broken man.Given how results were he was correct in the modern day football world to have lost his job. I don't blame PT for where we are, it was just a job he couldn't do by picking up the awlful job of our past manager. PT has a proven record as a L2 manager.Not good enough for us, but in a different league to BG. BG is our worst Manager EVER!!!! Loool the whole “especially a club of our size” bollocks is funny. Half of league one are bigger than us. We are not a big club at this level. I would say we are a very poorly run, tinpot club with delusions of grandeur.
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Post by 4d on Feb 14, 2021 11:13:26 GMT
As TW would say - the manager is dealt the hand it’s up to them how they use it. Both managers had the same hand in terms of players but Garner had the extra challenge of a far harder run of games and the fact that the players were new to each other.
Under Garner there was a clear plan as to how we were going to play and whilst there were times we needed to get the ball forward quicker (usually acknowledged by Garner) there were some games or spells in games where we showed what we were aiming for and it was good to watch. I honestly don’t know what the plan was under Tisdale.
Garner averaged 1.1 points in the league - It’s inconceivable to think that with a much easier run coming up and a team that were no longer strangers we wouldn’t have improved on that. He had 11 games which included 5 of the top 6 and a Doncaster and Fleetwood team in form at the time - how many points did people realistically expect from these 11 games? In my view 12 Points was a slight underachievement and certainly not worthy of being sacked. We’d beat top of the table away and drew with Sunderland - it was not a disastrous start to the season. For Tisdale to average less points per game with a far far easier run of games means there is no debate in terms of who played the better hand.
We went from a manager trying to play to the strengths of the players we had, with a team that were playing for him, to one who ignored the strengths of the team and was unliked by the players. The argument is over and the decision to sack Garner when we did was a huge mistake that could see us relegated.
This job is far from a poisoned chalice and there is more potential In this squad than we’ve had for years. There’s a reason everyone was saying last summer was the best transfer window we’d had in ages and that’s because it was clear we’d signed some quality. It’s now time to bring someone in to continue the work Garner started and hope that the 3 months we’ve thrown away don’t cost us dearly.
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Post by aghast on Feb 14, 2021 12:07:12 GMT
I've now read that sacking Garner has set us back years, and also that appointing him has set us back years!
They can't both be true and in fact I don't think either are true. If we limp to a lower mid table place this season then it's not far off the usual historical kind of slot and no major damage done. As for promotion, it would have been a bit of an embarrassment like Wycombe's has been. Without a decent stadium and an enhanced budget we'll never survive at the level above. Nothing to do with BG being here or not. I think keeping him on would have been a huge mistake, but he's gone now and there's still time to fix the damage he and PT inflicted.
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Post by warehamgas on Feb 14, 2021 12:17:41 GMT
Probably worth mentioning 3 of Ben Garner's 5 wins came against 10 men. Blackpool, Northampton and Lincoln. Eh? I think the Blackpool win was one of Tis’ not BGs. Blimey neither had many so let’s not take one away from them. 😉 UTG! edit: or is the Blackpool win coming from last season, in which case I apologise? As it was a recent win I was taking it for our win in January.
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