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Post by gulfofaden on Nov 13, 2021 21:46:54 GMT
The mem was a pretty unanimous “in” today.
Even at 0-0 the Blackthorn were singing “JB barmy army”
The angsty contingent are massively represented on old world communication methods like this forum. This is 1990s style online debating.
I’ve spoken to many fans who aren’t online and the consensus view is “fans prefer this to work rather than have to buy a ton of new players and a new manager”
There is not quite the vitriol you get on here. I don’t think everyone is quite as bought in as “Joey in” but at present you have to say, we look pretty good, and we have pulled off some great results, pizza trophy aside.
Not sure why the online forum community as much more vitriolic but I’ve also found that this is the case for ANY manager. DC, GC, anyone.
I think essentially folks who are motivated to actually post on the matter are very loud and vocal. Those who are more “see what happens” don’t post or don’t write endless threads saying “why I’m on the fence”
It’s basically a silent majority, with some loud Barton out activists. A bit like XR, and a host of other “anti something” protests. Most people are pretty ambiguous but those with strong views make one hell of a racket. The fact the racket is loud doesn’t indicate the groundswell of opinion, important to remember that.
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Post by o2o2bo2ba on Nov 13, 2021 21:55:23 GMT
Interesting point GOE, nice post.
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Nov 14, 2021 6:10:55 GMT
The mem was a pretty unanimous “in” today. Even at 0-0 the Blackthorn were singing “JB barmy army” The angsty contingent are massively represented on old world communication methods like this forum. This is 1990s style online debating. I’ve spoken to many fans who aren’t online and the consensus view is “fans prefer this to work rather than have to buy a ton of new players and a new manager” There is not quite the vitriol you get on here. I don’t think everyone is quite as bought in as “Joey in” but at present you have to say, we look pretty good, and we have pulled off some great results, pizza trophy aside. Not sure why the online forum community as much more vitriolic but I’ve also found that this is the case for ANY manager. DC, GC, anyone. I think essentially folks who are motivated to actually post on the matter are very loud and vocal. Those who are more “see what happens” don’t post or don’t write endless threads saying “why I’m on the fence” It’s basically a silent majority, with some loud Barton out activists. A bit like XR, and a host of other “anti something” protests. Most people are pretty ambiguous but those with strong views make one hell of a racket. The fact the racket is loud doesn’t indicate the groundswell of opinion, important to remember that. Good post and I completely agree. I think the majority are ambivalent or loosely supportive of Barton. I would also say that the number of people with a similar opinion on something has absolutely no bearing on the truth or on whether they are correct.
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Post by gashead4ever on Nov 16, 2021 21:55:40 GMT
any1 changed there mind yet? joey barton barmy army !!!!!!!!!
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Post by 4d on Nov 16, 2021 22:20:53 GMT
Must be a few as the out % has dropped from over 80% to around 70% in a few days.
Good job those fans aren’t on the board as I’m not sure you can sack a manager one week and hire him the next...
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Post by titchthephot on Nov 17, 2021 13:08:48 GMT
Quote "It’s basically a silent majority, with some loud Barton out activists. A bit like XR, and a host of other “anti something” protests. Most people are pretty ambiguous but those with strong views make one hell of a racket. The fact the racket is loud doesn’t indicate the groundswell of opinion, important to remember that." There wasn't a silent majority when we lost our last home game...quite a loud majority of booing. This only proves that a lot of fans are either fickle or more likely fans who want to see the team winning even if Barton is the manager. I am still firmly BARTON OUT because it was never about his management ability (which I still don't think he has a lot of) but the fact that he is a nasty piece of work. I realise (and I would imagine a lot of Barton Outers do) that if results improve we are less likely to get our way. His court cases if they go ahead are a different matter. If they actually do go ahead (surely the fact that CPS think there is a good enough case for both) means we still have a chance of getting our way. I'm sure there are enough senior players at the club who could take over and do just as good a job. After all, we seem to have enough talent (when Barton actually plays them) to win games. I live in hope of a Barton free Mem and then and only then will I return to the ground. In the mean time the team and NOT the manager will have my full support...but from a distance!
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Post by clockendgas on Nov 17, 2021 13:19:41 GMT
I didn't want Barton as manager and up until a week or two ago would have been happy to see him exit. But clearly the players are playing for him looking at last night's game and to sack him now will cause more turmoil on and off the pitch. I have never stopped supporting the team but we can't keep swapping managers every six months so I'll put up with Barton until he either messes up again off the pitch or gets us promoted and I'll tolerate him.
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Post by gulfofaden on Nov 17, 2021 20:40:15 GMT
The mem was a pretty unanimous “in” today. Even at 0-0 the Blackthorn were singing “JB barmy army” The angsty contingent are massively represented on old world communication methods like this forum. This is 1990s style online debating. I’ve spoken to many fans who aren’t online and the consensus view is “fans prefer this to work rather than have to buy a ton of new players and a new manager” There is not quite the vitriol you get on here. I don’t think everyone is quite as bought in as “Joey in” but at present you have to say, we look pretty good, and we have pulled off some great results, pizza trophy aside. Not sure why the online forum community as much more vitriolic but I’ve also found that this is the case for ANY manager. DC, GC, anyone. I think essentially folks who are motivated to actually post on the matter are very loud and vocal. Those who are more “see what happens” don’t post or don’t write endless threads saying “why I’m on the fence” It’s basically a silent majority, with some loud Barton out activists. A bit like XR, and a host of other “anti something” protests. Most people are pretty ambiguous but those with strong views make one hell of a racket. The fact the racket is loud doesn’t indicate the groundswell of opinion, important to remember that. Good post and I completely agree. I think the majority are ambivalent or loosely supportive of Barton. I would also say that the number of people with a similar opinion on something has absolutely no bearing on the truth or on whether they are correct. That’s true, but then the truth is, and always had been, negotiable. I know you object to JB on moral grounds and that’s a considered and reasonable choice. I just hold a different set of values. In those terms, we are both correct from our respective standpoints, so there’s no objective truth. In terms of the rejection of JB on footballing terms, this again is murky. I could quite easily say today “see! He’s got them playing well” but I could also say “he got us relegated” It really is a hall of mirrors, but you are following your own moral compass on this matter (which I totally understand and many agree with you) so you’re staying consistent to your values at your own expense, and you could say an intrinsic “truth” of that is you are acting with integrity.
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Nov 17, 2021 20:53:01 GMT
Good post and I completely agree. I think the majority are ambivalent or loosely supportive of Barton. I would also say that the number of people with a similar opinion on something has absolutely no bearing on the truth or on whether they are correct. That’s true, but then the truth is, and always had been, negotiable. I know you object to JB on moral grounds and that’s a considered and reasonable choice. I just hold a different set of values. In those terms, we are both correct from our respective standpoints, so there’s no objective truth. In terms of the rejection of JB on footballing terms, this again is murky. I could quite easily say today “see! He’s got them playing well” but I could also say “he got us relegated” It really is a hall of mirrors, but you are following your own moral compass on this matter (which I totally understand and many agree with you) so you’re staying consistent to your values at your own expense, and you could say an intrinsic “truth” of that is you are acting with integrity. I said from day 1 that I wanted Barton. I thought he was a good appointment from a football point of view. It's significant that we have started to improve since he got his head down and shut his mouth. Makes you wonder if he could have actually kept us if if he had done that from day 1. Truth is that which comports with reality. It is not, and never has been, negotiable. It's my opinion that JBs behaviour has gone too far off the field. It's not the truth. The fact that we can both consider my opinion reasonable, yet still disagree is all the evidence we need to know its only opinion. Likewise, I totally understand why someone would wish to wait for an outcome from the pending court case. A very reasonable position but its not the truth. Indeed, being found not guilty isn't necessarily proof of innocence. This is why so many people love football. Aside from the colour of the shirts and the final score nearly everything else is nothing more than opinion.
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Post by gulfofaden on Nov 17, 2021 21:02:43 GMT
That’s true, but then the truth is, and always had been, negotiable. I know you object to JB on moral grounds and that’s a considered and reasonable choice. I just hold a different set of values. In those terms, we are both correct from our respective standpoints, so there’s no objective truth. In terms of the rejection of JB on footballing terms, this again is murky. I could quite easily say today “see! He’s got them playing well” but I could also say “he got us relegated” It really is a hall of mirrors, but you are following your own moral compass on this matter (which I totally understand and many agree with you) so you’re staying consistent to your values at your own expense, and you could say an intrinsic “truth” of that is you are acting with integrity. I said from day 1 that I wanted Barton. I thought he was a good appointment from a football point of view. It's significant that we have started to improve since he got his head down and shut his mouth. Makes you wonder if he could have actually kept us if if he had done that from day 1. Truth is that which comports with reality. It is not, and never has been, negotiable. It's my opinion that JBs behaviour has gone too far off the field. It's not the truth. The fact that we can both consider my opinion reasonable, yet still disagree is all the evidence we need to know its only opinion. Likewise, I totally understand why someone would wish to wait for an outcome from the pending court case. A very reasonable position but its not the truth. Indeed, being found not guilty isn't necessarily proof of innocence. This is why so many people love football. Aside from the colour of the shirts and the final score nearly everything else is nothing more than opinion. This is deep intellectual terrace bants. I think. Only bit I would stick my oar in on is the “truth” bit. It’s extraordinarily difficult to arrive at it. Scientifically it’s even harder, you get new truths every time a study is done. However, you end up a rudderless ship if you can’t arrive at any agreement of truth I suppose. I’m just quite interested in this concept because it really is a rabbit hole. However, rabbit holes often are dead end. On the “not guilty isn’t evidence of innocence”, having seen personally the damage of malicious allegations, not sure if I agree. Many a career has been unjustly ruined due to rumour and accusation without substance, where people have thought “not guilty doesn’t prove innocence”
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Nov 17, 2021 21:22:08 GMT
I said from day 1 that I wanted Barton. I thought he was a good appointment from a football point of view. It's significant that we have started to improve since he got his head down and shut his mouth. Makes you wonder if he could have actually kept us if if he had done that from day 1. Truth is that which comports with reality. It is not, and never has been, negotiable. It's my opinion that JBs behaviour has gone too far off the field. It's not the truth. The fact that we can both consider my opinion reasonable, yet still disagree is all the evidence we need to know its only opinion. Likewise, I totally understand why someone would wish to wait for an outcome from the pending court case. A very reasonable position but its not the truth. Indeed, being found not guilty isn't necessarily proof of innocence. This is why so many people love football. Aside from the colour of the shirts and the final score nearly everything else is nothing more than opinion. This is deep intellectual terrace bants. I think. Only bit I would stick my oar in on is the “truth” bit. It’s extraordinarily difficult to arrive at it. Scientifically it’s even harder, you get new truths every time a study is done. However, you end up a rudderless ship if you can’t arrive at any agreement of truth I suppose. I’m just quite interested in this concept because it really is a rabbit hole. However, rabbit holes often are dead end. On the “not guilty isn’t evidence of innocence”, having seen personally the damage of malicious allegations, not sure if I agree. Many a career has been unjustly ruined due to rumour and accusation without substance, where people have thought “not guilty doesn’t prove innocence” Science doesn't claim or pretend to offer truth. It only provides the the best possible guess. That's why the highest possible standard in science is when an idea becomes a theory. Theory of evolution for example. It's the best possible explanation of change in allele frequency over time. Truth, by the definition "that which comports with reality" really is just general consensus and therefore we are not at all rudderless. We, as a species, will probably agree on way more things and call them truth than we realise. A person is presumed innocent until proven guilty in law only. Its a premise that's used to stop people lynching someone before trial. But there is also a reason someone is found not guilty in a court of law. They are not found to be innocent. This is because in law the burden of proof is on the prosecution. They have to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. No one has to prove innocence. "Beyond reasonable doubt" is by definition subjective.
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gruad
Reserve Team
Posts: 325
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Post by gruad on Nov 18, 2021 22:51:50 GMT
This is pure philosophy.
We need to sign Wittgenstein and Kant.
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Post by Jomo on Nov 19, 2021 9:38:05 GMT
I said from day 1 that I wanted Barton. I thought he was a good appointment from a football point of view. It's significant that we have started to improve since he got his head down and shut his mouth. Makes you wonder if he could have actually kept us if if he had done that from day 1. Truth is that which comports with reality. It is not, and never has been, negotiable. It's my opinion that JBs behaviour has gone too far off the field. It's not the truth. The fact that we can both consider my opinion reasonable, yet still disagree is all the evidence we need to know its only opinion. Likewise, I totally understand why someone would wish to wait for an outcome from the pending court case. A very reasonable position but its not the truth. Indeed, being found not guilty isn't necessarily proof of innocence. This is why so many people love football. Aside from the colour of the shirts and the final score nearly everything else is nothing more than opinion. This is deep intellectual terrace bants. I think. Only bit I would stick my oar in on is the “truth” bit. It’s extraordinarily difficult to arrive at it. Scientifically it’s even harder, you get new truths every time a study is done. However, you end up a rudderless ship if you can’t arrive at any agreement of truth I suppose. I’m just quite interested in this concept because it really is a rabbit hole. However, rabbit holes often are dead end. On the “not guilty isn’t evidence of innocence”, having seen personally the damage of malicious allegations, not sure if I agree. Many a career has been unjustly ruined due to rumour and accusation without substance, where people have thought “not guilty doesn’t prove innocence” I disagree with your use of the word truth. I believe what you consider "truth" is actually more "consensus". Scientific studies provide conclusions, not truths, based on evidence. To avoid having a rudderless ship, the majority of decision makers should arrive at a consensus of opinion based on what they believe to be the most logical course of action given the group's current circumstances. It has nothing to do with "truth".
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Post by gulfofaden on Nov 19, 2021 9:48:37 GMT
This is deep intellectual terrace bants. I think. Only bit I would stick my oar in on is the “truth” bit. It’s extraordinarily difficult to arrive at it. Scientifically it’s even harder, you get new truths every time a study is done. However, you end up a rudderless ship if you can’t arrive at any agreement of truth I suppose. I’m just quite interested in this concept because it really is a rabbit hole. However, rabbit holes often are dead end. On the “not guilty isn’t evidence of innocence”, having seen personally the damage of malicious allegations, not sure if I agree. Many a career has been unjustly ruined due to rumour and accusation without substance, where people have thought “not guilty doesn’t prove innocence” I disagree with your use of the word truth. I believe what you consider "truth" is actually more "consensus". Scientific studies provide conclusions, not truths, based on evidence. To avoid having a rudderless ship, the majority of decision makers should arrive at a consensus of opinion based on what they believe to be the most logical course of action given the group's current circumstances. It has nothing to do with "truth". Two Insulate Britain protesters glued themselves to a tanker as demonstrators they blocked the Port of Dover in Kent on ... we must tell the truth about the urgent horror of the climate emergency. I don’t feel that this scientific issue is being described as a consensus. If you don’t agree you’re called a “denier” which doesn’t suggest anything but a black and white dichotomy of truth and falsehood.
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Post by titchthephot on Nov 19, 2021 9:52:14 GMT
This discussion sounds like Oxford and Cambridge Universities have got involved!!!:-)
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Post by Jomo on Nov 19, 2021 10:02:17 GMT
I disagree with your use of the word truth. I believe what you consider "truth" is actually more "consensus". Scientific studies provide conclusions, not truths, based on evidence. To avoid having a rudderless ship, the majority of decision makers should arrive at a consensus of opinion based on what they believe to be the most logical course of action given the group's current circumstances. It has nothing to do with "truth". Two Insulate Britain protesters glued themselves to a tanker as demonstrators they blocked the Port of Dover in Kent on ... we must tell the truth about the urgent horror of the climate emergency. I don’t feel that this scientific issue is being described as a consensus. If you don’t agree you’re called a “denier” which doesn’t suggest anything but a black and white dichotomy of truth and falsehood. Well I can't comment on what the Insulate Britain protestors say. If they say "truth" in their propaganda, that's not something I necessarily agree with, but I do see where you're coming from when you use that example. The science "denier" thing is a tricky one. Yes I agree it implies denial of "truth", however I argue that it's denial of an overwhelming consensus of opinion based on peer-reviewed science. And again this could be about any number of fields, so it's not as simple as poo-pooing everything or championing everything. Peer-reviewed science is not "truth" per se, but it is as close to having knowledge of the truth as we can feasibly get. It's healthy to be sceptical to the point of researching the validity of claims, but it's not healthy to be a "denier" as you say, just for the sake of it, or lack of trust etc. Anyway, I'm out on this subject now, as I come on here for football, I just sometimes end up staying for this stuff!
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Post by legas on Nov 19, 2021 10:04:57 GMT
Truth? You can’t handle the truth!
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2021 10:11:15 GMT
Quote "It’s basically a silent majority, with some loud Barton out activists. A bit like XR, and a host of other “anti something” protests. Most people are pretty ambiguous but those with strong views make one hell of a racket. The fact the racket is loud doesn’t indicate the groundswell of opinion, important to remember that." There wasn't a silent majority when we lost our last home game...quite a loud majority of booing. This only proves that a lot of fans are either fickle or more likely fans who want to see the team winning even if Barton is the manager. I am still firmly BARTON OUT because it was never about his management ability (which I still don't think he has a lot of) but the fact that he is a nasty piece of work. I realise (and I would imagine a lot of Barton Outers do) that if results improve we are less likely to get our way. His court cases if they go ahead are a different matter. If they actually do go ahead (surely the fact that CPS think there is a good enough case for both) means we still have a chance of getting our way. I'm sure there are enough senior players at the club who could take over and do just as good a job. After all, we seem to have enough talent (when Barton actually plays them) to win games. I live in hope of a Barton free Mem and then and only then will I return to the ground. In the mean time the team and NOT the manager will have my full support...but from a distance! I'm feel much as you do about Barton. He's an average lower league manager and the results are only just reflecting the budget he has available to him. I think his repeated violent outbursts over the years make him unsuited for a senior role at a league club but we are where we are and unpicking the situation would be hard as he has surrounded himself with mates some of whom also have questionable past records. I still want the club to thrive but I don't feel that close connection with the club that I once did.
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Post by purdownpoacher1 on Nov 19, 2021 10:38:19 GMT
I’m feeling the exact opposite, felt nothing with Garner and Tisdale, feel far more passionate with Joe at the helm ! 💙 Utg
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Post by 4d on Jan 29, 2022 20:57:37 GMT
Time for the Intelligentsia to treat us to another poll yet?
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