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Post by Feeling The Blues on Oct 28, 2016 17:19:02 GMT
Thinking about it noone I've ever met gay or straight has ever said that they were ever unsure of whether they fancy men,women or both. My genuine question to those who think gayness is a choice is - if you yourself know what you are and always have been, why would you doubt that in others? Appreciate that maybe not everyone is that certain; if so fair play, you may have made a choice to repress your gay/straight side.I'm curious whether those who belive we do make a choice have been forced to make that difficult choice themselves? If so I feel for you; it must be difficult repressing what is ultimately a pretty instinctive primal urge. I think the first few openly gay players will have a tough time, similar to blacks in the 70s. That's probably right isn't it? People who think it's a choice say that because they have made that choice, and have repressed feelings that they hold. That would explain why the people who are most anti gay are those that think it's a choice. I've always thought that the people who are most anti gay may be struggling with their own demons and "the choice" theory supports that and makes sense.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2016 17:27:51 GMT
On the hetro/gay dickhead thing, if it's right one way and not the other (if you excuse the pun) on the assumption that heterosexuality is considered normal, that is only for heterosexuals. Homosexuals view homosexuality as normal.
What is normal is subjective to the individual and independent of the group. If you don't follow that premise, you end up in a ridiculous world of double standards where morality is relative - some groups are permitted some rights of speach and freedom and others not. This is a fundamentally unfair state of affairs where, if they so decided, a minority can perform the exact same act of abuse without fear of recourse and another group, by the nature of their sexuality or skin colour, are punished. This creates the fundamentals for an apartheid like legal system. I think many are conscious that there were years of unfair discrimination and would like to right it by allowing the boot on the other foot. The answer is not in creating more double standards and inequality.
So, although I feel for anyone in a minority who feels outnumbered somewhat, the right to equal assessment of crime or discord based on each individual's actions, without social context or politicisation, is the essence of justice, so I cannot agree that anyone is exempted from judgement based on the fact they are in a minority. Being outnumbered doesn't mean you have a different moral standard.
The answer is to chill out, the media to stop going on about it all the time and start looking at people as individuals and not as a group. Being grouped divides us.
I do think most of the problem is the media stirring it up, and some rather weird historically revisionist ideas which circulate the education system
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Post by inee on Oct 28, 2016 17:33:13 GMT
If that is true then why do so many try women as well as surely this makes them bisexual and not gay, you cant say oh it's not a choice then gays would never go near a woman. what i find interesting is you say no choice,what makes you think they have no choice. Your second sentence is a crock of sh**, i know many people who have woken up and thought just that for the simple reason that they wanted sex and there were no women around. (but im sure people will have a way of covering that one) Some gay men 'try women' because they 'try to conform to sociatal norms' I imagine. Which goes totally against the arguments that it's not a choice, that people are born gay and thats the way it is, surely if they are right then no gay man would every try a woman
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Post by Feeling The Blues on Oct 28, 2016 17:39:39 GMT
To put this in perspective if we had a whole team of gay players or a whole team of straight I would be there cheering them every week. However if we ever play goal music (especially the dreadful Tom Hark) then I'll never set foot in the ground again until it's binned!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2016 17:43:30 GMT
Why do you refer to being Gay as an inherent trait? Do you not know anyone who has been 'converted'? Likewise the other way round? Some people may think they come across as really on the ball and always right when really they chat bollocks. Plenty on here as it happens. Spot on with that second paragraph. I didn't say being gay is an inherent trait, I inferred that sexuality is. Sexuality is, in the vast majority of cases, not a choice. If it were I would imagine that the countless historical examples of attempts to find a "cure" for homosexuality would have been considerably more successful - considering how horrendously grim the "treatments" were for the so-called patients. www.ushmm.org/wlc/mobile/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005261
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Post by BrightonGas on Oct 28, 2016 17:44:11 GMT
Agreed. Somehow trying to justify his homophobia. The difference between calling someone a htro dickhead and a gay something or other is that hetrosexuality is looked upon as normal. Whether we like it or no, homosexuality hasn't always been accepted and still isn't in somecases. Inee, you don't have to agree with the majority and majority aren't always right. In this case though, the majority are right and you are wrong I am afraid. Ah so you both want me banned because i have a differing opinion to yourselves, again i dont see why you have to use the ophobic pc sheep bandwagon label, just because i dislike something you don't. The real issue is that people like yourselves just chuck out the label if other aren't in total agreement with yourselves. It's that simple over the years people have been conditioned to think like the majority. Again you seem to miss the very point of if i disagree with you then who is right and who is wrong the simple fact is it both are right and both are wrong depending on the view of the person. I have said many times i hate my gay nephew with a vengeance, but get on with his boyfriend so am i ophobic to one and not the other or to both, perceptions aren't as clean cut as they seem to people, me and you will disagree on this until we hell freezes over, but i would still buy you a pint and chew the cud with you Brighton gas wtf are you taking i haven't mentioned brexit in this thread but i did vote out and contributed to a thread on it when it was happening Inee, youve obviously got a lot to say about this, but has it occured to you that the majority on here dont want to hear about it. Thats not due to being the so called PC brigade, were just normal people who respect others. This whole thing is going nowhere fast, so why dont we agree to disagree and leave it.
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Post by countygroundhotel on Oct 28, 2016 17:47:27 GMT
Ah so you both want me banned because i have a differing opinion to yourselves, again i dont see why you have to use the ophobic pc sheep bandwagon label, just because i dislike something you don't. The real issue is that people like yourselves just chuck out the label if other aren't in total agreement with yourselves. It's that simple over the years people have been conditioned to think like the majority. Again you seem to miss the very point of if i disagree with you then who is right and who is wrong the simple fact is it both are right and both are wrong depending on the view of the person. I have said many times i hate my gay nephew with a vengeance, but get on with his boyfriend so am i ophobic to one and not the other or to both, perceptions aren't as clean cut as they seem to people, me and you will disagree on this until we hell freezes over, but i would still buy you a pint and chew the cud with you Brighton gas wtf are you taking i haven't mentioned brexit in this thread but i did vote out and contributed to a thread on it when it was happening Inee, youve obviously got a lot to say about this, but has it occured to you that the majority on here dont want to hear about it. Thats not due to being the so called PC brigade, were just normal people who respect others. This whole thing is going nowhere fast, so why dont we agree to disagree and leave it. Oh dear free speech out of the window again. What a pleasant chap (I'm guessing chap) you are.
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Post by BrightonGas on Oct 28, 2016 18:00:01 GMT
Inee, youve obviously got a lot to say about this, but has it occured to you that the majority on here dont want to hear about it. Thats not due to being the so called PC brigade, were just normal people who respect others. This whole thing is going nowhere fast, so why dont we agree to disagree and leave it. Oh dear free speech out of the window again. What a pleasant chap (I'm guessing chap) you are. Obviously respecting other people is an extremely offensive trait to some...apologies!
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Post by Feeling The Blues on Oct 28, 2016 18:03:40 GMT
Some gay men 'try women' because they 'try to conform to sociatal norms' I imagine. Which goes totally against the arguments that it's not a choice, that people are born gay and thats the way it is, surely if they are right then no gay man would every try a woman Inee, it doesn't support your position about "choice" no one would choose something that they know is not normal or is going to make life difficult for them with their family and friends, they would choose what is normal first and hope that works out for them.
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Post by tinkerbell on Oct 28, 2016 18:08:08 GMT
Everyone is somewhere on the spectrum between Masculine and Feminine. The same with the spectrum between Gay and Straight. It is not a choice it is what it is.
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Post by Gas Go Marching In on Oct 28, 2016 18:23:26 GMT
Some gay men 'try women' because they 'try to conform to sociatal norms' I imagine. Which goes totally against the arguments that it's not a choice, that people are born gay and thats the way it is, surely if they are right then no gay man would every try a woman Do you think being heterosexual i a choice as well then?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2016 18:34:45 GMT
Which goes totally against the arguments that it's not a choice, that people are born gay and thats the way it is, surely if they are right then no gay man would every try a woman Do you think being heterosexual i a choice as well then? Don't you get it? If a man wants sex with another man it's not his choice,he was born that way. If a man wants sex with a woman it is his choice. f**k knows what the answer is if he swings both ways.
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Oct 28, 2016 18:37:52 GMT
Do you think being heterosexual i a choice as well then? Don't you get it? If a man wants sex with another man it's not his choice,he was born that way. If a man wants sex with a woman it is his choice. f**k knows what the answer is if he swings both ways. I can't get sex of any description. And not through choice.
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Post by inee on Oct 28, 2016 18:40:49 GMT
Ah so you both want me banned because i have a differing opinion to yourselves, again i dont see why you have to use the ophobic pc sheep bandwagon label, just because i dislike something you don't. The real issue is that people like yourselves just chuck out the label if other aren't in total agreement with yourselves. It's that simple over the years people have been conditioned to think like the majority. Again you seem to miss the very point of if i disagree with you then who is right and who is wrong the simple fact is it both are right and both are wrong depending on the view of the person. I have said many times i hate my gay nephew with a vengeance, but get on with his boyfriend so am i ophobic to one and not the other or to both, perceptions aren't as clean cut as they seem to people, me and you will disagree on this until we hell freezes over, but i would still buy you a pint and chew the cud with you Brighton gas wtf are you taking i haven't mentioned brexit in this thread but i did vote out and contributed to a thread on it when it was happening Inee, youve obviously got a lot to say about this, but has it occured to you that the majority on here dont want to hear about it. Thats not due to being the so called PC brigade, were just normal people who respect others. This whole thing is going nowhere fast, so why dont we agree to disagree and leave it. Has it also occurred to you that this is a discussion thread, not a thread where everyone has to yield to the majority, some of us have the fecking balls to tell it like it is, thing is if you dislike me i don't give a toss, however just for your benefit the easiest thing for you to do is somewhere in your profile you have the ability to add me to your ignore list, so you don't ever have to read an opinion that differs from yours ,simple What i do find interesting is you feel it necessary to bullshit ,as your first post called for my banning, followed when questioned by someone else, that it was because i mentioned brexit on this thread, when i asked why ,and mentioned i haven't mentioned brexit it became something else. If you think im a cocked eyed lady garden, then feel free as really i wont lose any sleep over it
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Post by inee on Oct 28, 2016 18:47:28 GMT
Thinking about it noone I've ever met gay or straight has ever said that they were ever unsure of whether they fancy men,women or both. My genuine question to those who think gayness is a choice is - if you yourself know what you are and always have been, why would you doubt that in others? Appreciate that maybe not everyone is that certain; if so fair play, you may have made a choice to repress your gay/straight side.I'm curious whether those who belive we do make a choice have been forced to make that difficult choice themselves? If so I feel for you; it must be difficult repressing what is ultimately a pretty instinctive primal urge. I think the first few openly gay players will have a tough time, similar to blacks in the 70s. That's probably right isn't it? People who think it's a choice say that because they have made that choice, and have repressed feelings that they hold. That would explain why the people who are most anti gay are those that think it's a choice. I've always thought that the people who are most anti gay may be struggling with their own demons and "the choice" theory supports that and makes sense. Oh come on surely you can do better, why is it those who think that people who have different views are what they oppose, in the first place , i hate cats doesnt mean i secretly desire to be a cat owner, and yet everyone who thinks it's not a choice offer no evidence that 100% supports their views. show me some evidence that could change my mind then i will have to accept it and i mean 100% conclusive proof, doesnt exist does it thought not
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Post by inee on Oct 28, 2016 18:54:06 GMT
Why do you refer to being Gay as an inherent trait? Do you not know anyone who has been 'converted'? Likewise the other way round? Some people may think they come across as really on the ball and always right when really they chat bollocks. Plenty on here as it happens. Spot on with that second paragraph. I didn't say being gay is an inherent trait, I inferred that sexuality is. Sexuality is, in the vast majority of cases, not a choice. If it were I would imagine that the countless historical examples of attempts to find a "cure" for homosexuality would have been considerably more successful - considering how horrendously grim the "treatments" were for the so-called patients. www.ushmm.org/wlc/mobile/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005261Why oh why does everyone go down your route to justify your perceptions, ffs is this supposed to shock anyone, why is it when people have no proof they dig up sh**e from ww2 as if it somehow makes one persons view more honourable than someone else's, if you had bothered to think about it and used your loaf ,you probably would have posted something that is truly shocking and not overly well known, and that is the fact that the uk used those very methods in institutions well after the war ended.
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Post by inee on Oct 28, 2016 18:54:51 GMT
Don't you get it? If a man wants sex with another man it's not his choice,he was born that way. If a man wants sex with a woman it is his choice. f**k knows what the answer is if he swings both ways. I can't get sex of any description. And not through choice. Hugo fiver behind the bikesheds and i'll bring me gloves
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Oct 28, 2016 19:02:24 GMT
Wouldn't it have just have been lovely if this was just 12 pages of people saying "It wouldn't bother me"?
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Post by RD on Oct 28, 2016 19:05:26 GMT
I stopped reading this thread after page 2 (too funny and too depressing) Let me just say, nobody wakes up one morning and thinks to themselves 'Hmmm, you know what.... I fancy a bit of c**k today'! F**king sh*thouses any of you who think it's a choice to be gay. You are really stupid people Everyone in life makes their own choices (on many, many different things from tea or coffee, to religion & sexuality), certainly if people choose to be gay then they shouldn't face any discrimination for making that choice. Next thing someone will be on here saying killers & rapists don't choose to be killers & rapists. Whilst theoretically speaking you may well be correct, it's not quite that "simple" is it? Yes, you could be gay and choose to ignore the feelings you have towards your own sex; of course you could. But to suggest they "choose to be gay" is something very different IMO. Yes you can choose to ignore what you feel, but IMO that is very different to choosing what to feel.
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Post by BrightonGas on Oct 28, 2016 19:05:56 GMT
Inee, youve obviously got a lot to say about this, but has it occured to you that the majority on here dont want to hear about it. Thats not due to being the so called PC brigade, were just normal people who respect others. This whole thing is going nowhere fast, so why dont we agree to disagree and leave it. Has it also occurred to you that this is a discussion thread, not a thread where everyone has to yield to the majority, some of us have the fecking balls to tell it like it is, thing is if you dislike me i don't give a toss, however just for your benefit the easiest thing for you to do is somewhere in your profile you have the ability to add me to your ignore list, so you don't ever have to read an opinion that differs from yours ,simple What i do find interesting is you feel it necessary to bullshit ,as your first post called for my banning, followed when questioned by someone else, that it was because i mentioned brexit on this thread, when i asked why ,and mentioned i haven't mentioned brexit it became something else. If you think im a cocked eyed lady garden, then feel free as really i wont lose any sleep over it So you have the "fecking balls to tell it like it is" ? What a joke! Im actually starting to feel for you...you clearly need to talk.
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