|
Post by Gas_Quarters on Mar 14, 2017 12:57:42 GMT
I think people forget how young Ellis still is because he came onto the scene at such an early age. Because he seems to have been around for ages, people expect that he should've reached his full potential by now. I think there is still lots of time for him to improve although that might not mean his ability improving as much as his consistency. His attitude is improving which is probably just coming with maturity. Over time, he may continue to mature, continue to improve and continue to become more consistent. If he was putting in his best performances (eg. against Northampton) week in week out, then he wouldn't still be playing for us, he'd be scoring 20 goals a season in the Premiership. 23 isn't young anymore. Really? It certainly isn't old. A lot of people are only just breaking onto the scene in their early 20s. I'd say most strikers are in their prime around 26-30. Plenty of time for improvement yet. UTG!
|
|
|
Post by baggins on Mar 14, 2017 13:02:55 GMT
Really? It certainly isn't old. A lot of people are only just breaking onto the scene in their early 20s. I'd say most strikers are in their prime around 26-30. Plenty of time for improvement yet. UTG! So he's got 3 maybe 4 seasons left. Pretty much half way through his playing career.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2017 13:08:17 GMT
I think the problem for Ellis is that the team/club are outstripping him, in that the team/club cannot afford to wait for him 'to develop'. Everything about the club is moving forward at a pretty fair old rate of knots. With the snake gone, now is the time he should be stepping up.
|
|
|
Post by Gas_Quarters on Mar 14, 2017 13:12:39 GMT
Really? It certainly isn't old. A lot of people are only just breaking onto the scene in their early 20s. I'd say most strikers are in their prime around 26-30. Plenty of time for improvement yet. UTG! So he's got 3 maybe 4 seasons left. Pretty much half way through his playing career. I think a lot of things factor into when a player's prime is and how long their playing career is. Eg. how well they look after themselves, the coaching they get, how willing they are to work hard and improve. You see some people like Ryan Giggs/Teddy Sheringham playing until their 40 and obviously they really took care of themselves, although obviously they weren't at their best at that age. I think it depends on the style of player as well. That's why defenders tend to peak later than wingers/strikers, because they rely on their knowledge/experience rather than their legs. Little, nippy strikers will often peak in their early-mid twenties (Michael Owen for example) because they rely on their speed. Target men normally peak later. Ibrahimovic probably didn't hit his peak until he was 30, and he's still probably at his best now, aged 35.
|
|
|
Post by baggins on Mar 14, 2017 13:14:27 GMT
So he's got 3 maybe 4 seasons left. Pretty much half way through his playing career. I think a lot of things factor into when a player's prime is and how long their playing career is. Eg. how well they look after themselves, the coaching they get, how willing they are to work hard and improve. You see some people like Ryan Giggs/Teddy Sheringham playing until their 40 and obviously they really took care of themselves, although obviously they weren't at their best at that age. I think it depends on the style of player as well. That's why defenders tend to peak later than wingers/strikers, because they really on their knowledge/experience rather than their legs. Little, nippy strikers will often peak in their early-mid twenties (Michael Owen for example) because they really on their speed. Target men normally peak later. Ibrahimovic probably didn't hit his peak until he was 30, and he's still probably at his best now, aged 35. I hear you fella, and I really do hope he starts putting it all together, real soon, otherwise we'll leave him behind.
|
|
|
Post by Gas_Quarters on Mar 14, 2017 13:22:43 GMT
I think a lot of things factor into when a player's prime is and how long their playing career is. Eg. how well they look after themselves, the coaching they get, how willing they are to work hard and improve. You see some people like Ryan Giggs/Teddy Sheringham playing until their 40 and obviously they really took care of themselves, although obviously they weren't at their best at that age. I think it depends on the style of player as well. That's why defenders tend to peak later than wingers/strikers, because they really on their knowledge/experience rather than their legs. Little, nippy strikers will often peak in their early-mid twenties (Michael Owen for example) because they really on their speed. Target men normally peak later. Ibrahimovic probably didn't hit his peak until he was 30, and he's still probably at his best now, aged 35. I hear you fella, and I really do hope he starts putting it all together, real soon, otherwise we'll leave him behind. I agree. Nobby's right in that the club can't wait around for him forever. I think the ideal situation would be for him to sign an extension and then go out on loan with the feeder club paying his whole wage. This way, if he does reach his full potential, he's still contracted to us and the gambles cost us nothing, but i don't know how likely that is to happen.
|
|
|
Post by baggins on Mar 14, 2017 13:29:05 GMT
I hear you fella, and I really do hope he starts putting it all together, real soon, otherwise we'll leave him behind. I agree. Nobby's right in that the club can't wait around for him forever. I think the ideal situation would be for him to sign an extension and then go out on loan with the feeder club paying his whole wage. This way, if he does reach his full potential, he's still contracted to us and the gambles cost us nothing, but i don't know how likely that is to happen. Only DC knows the answer to that and what with being given the green light by the owners to build a squad capable of much more, he's got maybe 5 games left to prove he's got it.
|
|
|
Post by whoblue on Mar 14, 2017 14:31:43 GMT
I agree. Nobby's right in that the club can't wait around for him forever. I think the ideal situation would be for him to sign an extension and then go out on loan with the feeder club paying his whole wage. This way, if he does reach his full potential, he's still contracted to us and the gambles cost us nothing, but i don't know how likely that is to happen. Only DC knows the answer to that and what with being given the green light by the owners to build a squad capable of much more, he's got maybe 5 games left to prove he's got it. Can he prove he's got it somewhere else, and say I told you so... We've won the last two games he's not been involved with... just sayin'
|
|
|
Post by althepirate on Mar 14, 2017 14:36:06 GMT
Interestingly in DC's latest interview he said the three things he looks for in a player in order is 1. Desire to win 2 Work rate 3 Ability. Its a matter of opinion if Ellis has those in the right order for DC.
|
|
|
Post by whoblue on Mar 14, 2017 14:40:20 GMT
Interestingly in DC's latest interview he said the three things he looks for in a player in order is 1. Desire to win 2 Work rate 3 Ability. Its a matter of opinion if Ellis has those in the right order for DC. yeah.. he has the (3) Ability to put the (2) Work rate in but, does he have the (1) Desire to (win)?
|
|
|
Post by Henbury Gas on Mar 14, 2017 14:40:41 GMT
I think people forget how young Ellis still is because he came onto the scene at such an early age. Because he seems to have been around for ages, people expect that he should've reached his full potential by now. I think there is still lots of time for him to improve although that might not mean his ability improving as much as his consistency. His attitude is improving which is probably just coming with maturity. Over time, he may continue to mature, continue to improve and continue to become more consistent. If he was putting in his best performances (eg. against Northampton) week in week out, then he wouldn't still be playing for us, he'd be scoring 20 goals a season in the Premiership. How old is Ryan Sweeney ? How good is he......
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2017 14:41:04 GMT
I think people forget how young Ellis still is because he came onto the scene at such an early age. Because he seems to have been around for ages, people expect that he should've reached his full potential by now. I think there is still lots of time for him to improve although that might not mean his ability improving as much as his consistency. His attitude is improving which is probably just coming with maturity. Over time, he may continue to mature, continue to improve and continue to become more consistent. If he was putting in his best performances (eg. against Northampton) week in week out, then he wouldn't still be playing for us, he'd be scoring 20 goals a season in the Premiership. 23 isn't young anymore. Absolutely, when you consider Ryan Sweeney (and the performances he's putting in against seasoned pro's) and he's still only 19 and isn't anywhere near as 'experienced' as EH.
|
|
|
Post by Gas_Quarters on Mar 14, 2017 14:44:08 GMT
I think people forget how young Ellis still is because he came onto the scene at such an early age. Because he seems to have been around for ages, people expect that he should've reached his full potential by now. I think there is still lots of time for him to improve although that might not mean his ability improving as much as his consistency. His attitude is improving which is probably just coming with maturity. Over time, he may continue to mature, continue to improve and continue to become more consistent. If he was putting in his best performances (eg. against Northampton) week in week out, then he wouldn't still be playing for us, he'd be scoring 20 goals a season in the Premiership. How old is Ryan Sweeney ? How good is he...... Which is why I think we'll have no chance of signing him permanently in the Summer, because Stoke will be thinking he'll play Premiership football in the future. I'm not saying it's impossible to be good enough at an early age, just that in general, people will still be developing at that age and its surprising if they don't improve.
|
|
|
Post by EastVanGas on Mar 14, 2017 14:47:33 GMT
Really? It certainly isn't old. A lot of people are only just breaking onto the scene in their early 20s. I'd say most strikers are in their prime around 26-30. Plenty of time for improvement yet. UTG! So he's got 3 maybe 4 seasons left. Pretty much half way through his playing career. 6 or 7 by my calculation? Surely worth sticking with him imo.
|
|
|
Post by Henbury Gas on Mar 14, 2017 14:48:29 GMT
How old is Ryan Sweeney ? How good is he...... Which is why I think we'll have no chance of signing him permanently in the Summer, because Stoke will be thinking he'll play Premiership football in the future. I'm not saying it's impossible to be good enough at an early age, just that in general, people will still be developing at that age and its surprising if they don't improve. he has got 4 years on Sweeney and i know which one i would have in my team week in week out Ok look at one of our own - Tom Lockyer, improved year on year, sadly Ellis is going backwards at the moment
|
|
|
Post by Hugo the Elder on Mar 14, 2017 14:48:37 GMT
Bodin is one year older than Ellis, as is Ollie Clarke.
Lockyer one year younger.
|
|
|
Post by CrispPusher on Mar 14, 2017 14:59:50 GMT
I think the problem for Ellis is that the team/club are outstripping him, in that the team/club cannot afford to wait for him 'to develop'. Everything about the club is moving forward at a pretty fair old rate of knots. With the snake gone, now is the time he should be stepping up. This was my thinking too, it's been almost a calendar year since Ellis has scored in consecutive matches. At 23 it would do his career good to go somewhere he can score goals regularly, instead of the one game in every 7-8 of this season imo.
|
|
|
Post by Gas_Quarters on Mar 14, 2017 15:00:40 GMT
Which is why I think we'll have no chance of signing him permanently in the Summer, because Stoke will be thinking he'll play Premiership football in the future. I'm not saying it's impossible to be good enough at an early age, just that in general, people will still be developing at that age and its surprising if they don't improve. he has got 4 years on Sweeney and i know which one i would have in my team week in week out Ok look at one of our own - Tom Lockyer, improved year on year, sadly Ellis is going backwards at the moment You're completely missing my point re. Sweeney. I'm not saying older means better, I'm saying at that age they are likely to still be improving. As Sweeney is already bossing this level at the age of 19, Stoke will be hoping that he develops into a Premiership player. Bear in mind as well that he has only done it for 10 or so games, he's yet to have a bad run of form which will come at some point in his career.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2017 15:07:49 GMT
he has got 4 years on Sweeney and i know which one i would have in my team week in week out Ok look at one of our own - Tom Lockyer, improved year on year, sadly Ellis is going backwards at the moment You're completely missing my point re. Sweeney. I'm not saying older means better, I'm saying at that age they are likely to still be improving. As Sweeney is already bossing this level at the age of 19, Stoke will be hoping that he develops into a Premiership player. Bear in mind as well that he has only done it for 10 or so games, he's yet to have a bad run of form which will come at some point in his career. So here is the million dollar dilemma for DC. Does he think Ellis will develop into a Championship player? In my humble opinion, he's struggling to develop into a Div 1 player. How many teams in the top ten of Div 1 do you think would play Ellis in their teams?
|
|
|
Post by Gas_Quarters on Mar 14, 2017 15:12:50 GMT
You're completely missing my point re. Sweeney. I'm not saying older means better, I'm saying at that age they are likely to still be improving. As Sweeney is already bossing this level at the age of 19, Stoke will be hoping that he develops into a Premiership player. Bear in mind as well that he has only done it for 10 or so games, he's yet to have a bad run of form which will come at some point in his career. So here is the million dollar dilemma for DC. Does he think Ellis will develop into a Championship player? In my humble opinion, he's struggling to develop into a Div 1 player. How many teams in the top ten of Div 1 do you think would play Ellis in their teams? It really is a tough one. I can't think of another player ever who's harder to predict. You could tie Ellis down for another 2 years and he could never have another good game again. Or he could be released, find some form somewhere and be playing Championship football in 2 years time (it really wouldn't surprise me if this happened). I wouldn't like to be the person to decide his future because he is a massive gamble.
|
|