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Post by peterparker on Apr 12, 2017 5:34:04 GMT
The figures quoted in that article seem completely at odds with what is shown in the accounts? What I don't understand is why the ALQ's seem content to just let the debts increase, don't they intend putting any of their own money into the club to pay off any of the debt before they eventually sell the Mem? I also can't get my head around what investors are going to be daft enough to invest £50m in building the UWE, as regardless to what any feasibility study says getting a decent return on that investment is going to be some achievement, as interest payments alone could be £2.5m p.a at 5% which is around 50% of our present turnover. I understand your concerns, however I don't share them (at least not yet, anyway). I'm not ITK or have any contacts so can only base my opinion on whet has been said and done in open sources. Nothing has happened yet to make me think that the AlQadi family is looking at anything but a long term view, rather than any form of Venture Capitalist or asset stripper. As such, they will need to ensure that things don't get out of hand financially, after all, it is in their interests for us to be solvent. Severncider's link states that they have written off over £2m (mostly the loan if the article is correct, but not solely). This suggests that they are putting in their 'own' money, but until they have to, I suspect they will continue to keep a 'safe' level of debt. Most of the debt is payable within 12 months of the accounts date (that is before June 2017) so depending on who is the creditor, will depend if more capital needs to be injected to settle the debts. They have also made modest improvements to the Mem including an increase in capacity, bought the training ground, kept DC on what I presume to be a really decent contract, brought in extra staff, funded a larger playing squad, commissioned the feasibility study. They have even appointed more expensive auditors. None of which indicates to me people who are not committed to the long haul. With regards the UWE, if you look at the accounts then you will see we already make c£2m from non football activities. It doesn't breakdown into how this is accounted for but if the UWE generates double this it covers what you predict as a return. The feasibility study was supposed to reassure whomever that it is a viable proposition so if the UWE is happening then loans will be serviced appropriately and timely. If you have sources which are making you genuinely concerned then I am happy to be corrected. I would concur with that. Debt doesnt have to be wholly a negative thing. Obviously we dont want it to high, but the important thing is to be able to service it. UWE is obviously important for this longer term. How many of us have a mortgage? We are in debt, but as long as you make your payments you should be okay. We can say what we want about the previous regime and their running of the club, but currently the majority debt is to them (Nick Higgs) and i dont think they will call it in anytime soon
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Post by BishopstonBRFC on Apr 12, 2017 5:48:02 GMT
At least he knows the facts - do you? Let's hope SH doesn't start telling porkies when 'at least he knows the facts' As you know we also don't technically own our stadium, yet everyone including myself is happy to say we do. I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill.
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Post by countygroundhotel on Apr 12, 2017 7:28:16 GMT
Let's hope SH doesn't start telling porkies when 'at least he knows the facts' As you know we also don't technically own our stadium, yet everyone including myself is happy to say we do. I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill. As far as I'm aware the memorial stadium is 100% owned by the The Memorial Stadium Company which as stated in the accounts is 100% owned by the Club.
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Post by Topper Gas on Apr 12, 2017 7:28:50 GMT
You're absolutely right - but it's still a debt and not written off. Wael is the enthusiastic figure head of this particular venture of a hard nosed business organisation which have made their millions through shrewd investments. If this falls through I'm not convinced they will want to stay around and look at alternatives which could take years to come to fruition. It would mean that they would be ploughing literally millions every season (we need 15k break even remember) which we won't get anywhere near at the Ramshackle. That's why I said this Stadium project is effectively "sh$t or bust". It's happened so many times at other clubs - just a tad nervous at mo - but keep the faith - we are going to need it!! Why would they up and leave? They said they are here for the long run and there is no reason to not trust them. The 15k comment hasnt been verified as far as im aware On the flip side why would they stay when they have no real connection with Bristol or Rovers, whilst they seem to be enjoying their time at the club you can't ignore the fact they see us as an investment opportunity, if the UWE plans bite the dust it could be years before they can get a return. With seemingly little of their own money invested in the club they could easily cut their losses and walk away.
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Post by countygroundhotel on Apr 12, 2017 7:34:13 GMT
You're absolutely right - but it's still a debt and not written off. Wael is the enthusiastic figure head of this particular venture of a hard nosed business organisation which have made their millions through shrewd investments. If this falls through I'm not convinced they will want to stay around and look at alternatives which could take years to come to fruition. It would mean that they would be ploughing literally millions every season (we need 15k break even remember) which we won't get anywhere near at the Ramshackle. That's why I said this Stadium project is effectively "sh$t or bust". It's happened so many times at other clubs - just a tad nervous at mo - but keep the faith - we are going to need it!! Why would they up and leave? They said they are here for the long run and there is no reason to not trust them. The 15k comment hasnt been verified as far as im aware New owners are hardly likely to say anything else are they? The accounts confirm that they are committed for at least the next 12 months.
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Post by Topper Gas on Apr 12, 2017 7:45:55 GMT
I understand your concerns, however I don't share them (at least not yet, anyway). I'm not ITK or have any contacts so can only base my opinion on whet has been said and done in open sources. Nothing has happened yet to make me think that the AlQadi family is looking at anything but a long term view, rather than any form of Venture Capitalist or asset stripper. As such, they will need to ensure that things don't get out of hand financially, after all, it is in their interests for us to be solvent. Severncider's link states that they have written off over £2m (mostly the loan if the article is correct, but not solely). This suggests that they are putting in their 'own' money, but until they have to, I suspect they will continue to keep a 'safe' level of debt. Most of the debt is payable within 12 months of the accounts date (that is before June 2017) so depending on who is the creditor, will depend if more capital needs to be injected to settle the debts. They have also made modest improvements to the Mem including an increase in capacity, bought the training ground, kept DC on what I presume to be a really decent contract, brought in extra staff, funded a larger playing squad, commissioned the feasibility study. They have even appointed more expensive auditors. None of which indicates to me people who are not committed to the long haul. With regards the UWE, if you look at the accounts then you will see we already make c£2m from non football activities. It doesn't breakdown into how this is accounted for but if the UWE generates double this it covers what you predict as a return. The feasibility study was supposed to reassure whomever that it is a viable proposition so if the UWE is happening then loans will be serviced appropriately and timely. If you have sources which are making you genuinely concerned then I am happy to be corrected. I would concur with that. Debt doesnt have to be wholly a negative thing. Obviously we dont want it to high, but the important thing is to be able to service it. UWE is obviously important for this longer term. How many of us have a mortgage? We are in debt, but as long as you make your payments you should be okay.We can say what we want about the previous regime and their running of the club, but currently the majority debt is to them (Nick Higgs) and i dont think they will call it in anytime soon As Coventry have found though once you can't your knackered! The plans seem to be built on us becoming the next Swansea/Reading but the 82'ers show us that doesn't always go to plan! I doubt NH & co have any choice but to sit and wait when the other option was to put the club in Admin/sell it in a fire sale for a knock down price.
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stuart1974
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Post by stuart1974 on Apr 12, 2017 7:54:26 GMT
Straw man argument, Topper. Having a serviceable debt is not necessarily a bad thing, especially if you are looking at obtains further credit. The creditor sees you as having a reliable repayment history and is reassured. If you have a problem repaying then that is different, as is having a history of replying in full.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2017 8:13:34 GMT
As you know we also don't technically own our stadium, yet everyone including myself is happy to say we do. I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill. As far as I'm aware the memorial stadium is 100% owned by the The Memorial Stadium Company which as stated in the accounts is 100% owned by the Club. With Dwane Sports again being the parent company, via their 92.6% shareholding in BRFC.
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Post by knowall on Apr 12, 2017 8:38:54 GMT
So I was wrong to assume that clearing the debt was part of the purchase cost, I'm not sure where I'd heard that but I thought it was the case. Apologies if I have mislead anyone, but I don't think I stated it as a hard fact. Also, I'm going to practise my reading, and when it's up to a level at which I can manage 10 pages maybe my writing style will improve too. BTW - your link to the accounts doesn't work so I've fixed it for you in the quote shown this post (happy to help). Link is working fine, perhaps you need a bit of practice using them as well as reading! In fairness respect that you can admit you were wrong over the debt, you were one of many who said the club was debt free but the only one big enough to admit it. If you were a banker you would know that a debt is the problem for the lender more than the borrower. If a borrower can't repay - he can't - but the lender still has an outstanding debt to cover! (As evidenced by the previous owners - how to get their money back!!) The lender is now DS and it is they who have a problem as there is no apparent commitment to service that debt. (apart from the Mem and the value of that is subject to planning etc etc) It is obvious to me that the new owners and SH are well aware of what they have committed to and servicing the debt will be part of their plan going forward. As for UWE - if the agreed terms are right then ANY investor will be happy to lay down the money - so that has to be the aim - get the best possible terms (where have I heard that recently?) and the money for purchase and build will be there - no problem.
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Post by countygroundhotel on Apr 12, 2017 8:39:13 GMT
Straw man argument, Topper. Having a serviceable debt is not necessarily a bad thing, especially if you are looking at obtains further credit. The creditor sees you as having a reliable repayment history and is reassured. If you have a problem repaying then that is different, as is having a history of replying in full. Are we servicing the debt? Any evidence of this 'reliable repayment history'?
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Post by knowall on Apr 12, 2017 8:41:08 GMT
Straw man argument, Topper. Having a serviceable debt is not necessarily a bad thing, especially if you are looking at obtains further credit. The creditor sees you as having a reliable repayment history and is reassured. If you have a problem repaying then that is different, as is having a history of replying in full. Are we servicing the debt? Any evidence of this 'reliable repayment history'? see previous post
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Post by countygroundhotel on Apr 12, 2017 8:42:00 GMT
As far as I'm aware the memorial stadium is 100% owned by the The Memorial Stadium Company which as stated in the accounts is 100% owned by the Club. With Dwane Sports again being the parent company, via their 92.6% shareholding in BRFC. Correct, and you can rest assured if there is a new stadium it will be 100% owned by Dwane Sports and leased to the football club. Perhaps people are happy with that I'm just pointing out the FACTS as opposed to others dealing in rumours & half truths. Will the lease be for 365 days a year or just for matchdays? Who knows.
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Post by stuart1974 on Apr 12, 2017 8:59:38 GMT
Straw man argument, Topper. Having a serviceable debt is not necessarily a bad thing, especially if you are looking at obtains further credit. The creditor sees you as having a reliable repayment history and is reassured. If you have a problem repaying then that is different, as is having a history of replying in full. Are we servicing the debt? Any evidence of this 'reliable repayment history'? Most of the debt is due within 12 months of the June 2016 accounts, the owners have signed off as financially supporting the club over the next 12 months. With regards to the history, I was talking generically about debt. That said, we have new owners and it is they who are sourcing the credit so it is their history and not 'ours' that will be looked at by investors/creditors and it is for them to reassure whether return on investment or interest is paid.
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Post by stuart1974 on Apr 12, 2017 9:01:41 GMT
With Dwane Sports again being the parent company, via their 92.6% shareholding in BRFC. Correct, and you can rest assured if there is a new stadium it will be 100% owned by Dwane Sports and leased to the football club. Perhaps people are happy with that I'm just pointing out the FACTS as opposed to others dealing in rumours & half truths. Will the lease be for 365 days a year or just for matchdays? Who knows. Whilst I agree with this being the likely arrangement, it is still supposition and not fact. We don't know what the financial arrangements will be.
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Post by countygroundhotel on Apr 12, 2017 9:03:07 GMT
Are we servicing the debt? Any evidence of this 'reliable repayment history'? Most of the debt is due within 12 months of the June 2016 accounts, the owners have signed off as financially supporting the club over the next 12 months. With regards to the history, I was talking generically about debt. That said, we have new owners and it is they who are sourcing the credit so it is their history and not 'ours' that will be looked at by investors/creditors and it is for them to reassure whether return on investment or interest is paid. So you think we are about to become almost debt free?
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Post by stuart1974 on Apr 12, 2017 9:10:22 GMT
Most of the debt is due within 12 months of the June 2016 accounts, the owners have signed off as financially supporting the club over the next 12 months. With regards to the history, I was talking generically about debt. That said, we have new owners and it is they who are sourcing the credit so it is their history and not 'ours' that will be looked at by investors/creditors and it is for them to reassure whether return on investment or interest is paid. So you think we are about to become almost debt free? Not necessarily, no. It could be (for example) paid off, written off, deferred or restructured. It's just that it is 'due' and the owners agreed to stay committed for the 12 months as stated in the accounts. The auditors would need to make reference if they felt otherwise. I don't know and wouldn't pretend otherwise.
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Post by countygroundhotel on Apr 12, 2017 9:14:44 GMT
So you think we are about to become almost debt free? Not necessarily, no. It could be (for example) paid off, written off, deferred or restructured. It's just that it is 'due' and the owners agreed to stay committed for the 12 months as stated in the accounts. The auditors would need to make reference if they felt otherwise. I don't know and wouldn't pretend otherwise. I'll make a £50 bet (proceeds to FFSC) that the next set of accounts will show no significant (I expect to see an increase) in debts. If there is a significant reduction I'll pay the £50 if there isn't you pay the £50. Deal?
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Post by knowall on Apr 12, 2017 9:16:37 GMT
With Dwane Sports again being the parent company, via their 92.6% shareholding in BRFC. Correct, and you can rest assured if there is a new stadium it will be 100% owned by Dwane Sports and leased to the football club. Perhaps people are happy with that I'm just pointing out the FACTS as opposed to others dealing in rumours & half truths. Will the lease be for 365 days a year or just for matchdays? Who knows. If this concerns you so much why don't you buy the Club?
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stuart1974
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Post by stuart1974 on Apr 12, 2017 9:24:44 GMT
Not necessarily, no. It could be (for example) paid off, written off, deferred or restructured. It's just that it is 'due' and the owners agreed to stay committed for the 12 months as stated in the accounts. The auditors would need to make reference if they felt otherwise. I don't know and wouldn't pretend otherwise. I'll make a £50 bet (proceeds to FFSC) that the next set of accounts will show no significant (I expect to see an increase) in debts. If there is a significant reduction I'll pay the £50 if there isn't you pay the £50. Deal? No, of course not. I never said we would be debt free so you are asking me to agree to something I don't subscribe to. Please stop trying to be right all the time, it is okay to have a different opinion or occasionally be wrong.
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Apr 12, 2017 9:45:38 GMT
Well, I'm worried about our future.
It all seems a bit too close for comfort to my mind.
Having debt is never a good thing.
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