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Post by Hugo the Elder on Jul 17, 2018 10:49:26 GMT
That's disingenuous. The Brexit vote was 1:1 nationally and was as good as 50/50. Constitutency had nothing to do with it. Gerrymandering and boundaries are messed about with all the time to suit the sitting gov to try to protect or totally sway election results. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2018 10:50:18 GMT
And exposed as weak liars if they don't tell the truth |
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Post by baggins on Jul 17, 2018 11:07:47 GMT
No Nobby, it was the Tories that got us into this mess. No Bags, it was politicians of all parties. It was Labour that signed the Lisbon Treaty, behind closed doors and away from the media. Therefore, it was a Labour government that voted that Treaty through the HoC. Also, in the 2015 General Election the Tories, Labour and the Lib Dems all promised a Referendum on the EU in their Manifesto's. The referendum was called for by Cameron. End of. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2018 11:08:10 GMT
That's disingenuous. The Brexit vote was 1:1 nationally and was as good as 50/50. Constitutency had nothing to do with it. Gerrymandering and boundaries are messed about with all the time to suit the sitting gov to try to protect or totally sway election results. 'As good as 50-50'? Nope, it wasn't 50-50 was it. THAT is being disingenuous. |
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Post by baggins on Jul 17, 2018 11:11:41 GMT
That's disingenuous. The Brexit vote was 1:1 nationally and was as good as 50/50. Constitutency had nothing to do with it. Gerrymandering and boundaries are messed about with all the time to suit the sitting gov to try to protect or totally sway election results. 'As good as 50-50'? Nope, it wasn't 50-50 was it. THAT is being disingenuous. Lying about your finances and now being investigated by the Police says something about how the leave brigade went about their business. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2018 11:26:27 GMT
Again, pointing fingers at either Leave or Remain protagonists is not the way to go.
People talk about a 2nd vote, as Greening did, can only be, should be about the Pro's and Con's of leaving the EU.
We cannot have that debate without clearly laying out the Cost / Benefits of the options.
As a starter for ten I have laid out the trade agreements we, the UK, will walk away from if we walk away from the EEA and the Customs Union. The cost.
I write that as a committed pro EU UK national.
What I would like is for our friends on the committed leave side to lay out the benefits, not opinion, but exactly the benefits they can say with a degree of surety that will accrue to the UK, by walking away.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2018 11:30:03 GMT
'As good as 50-50'? Nope, it wasn't 50-50 was it. THAT is being disingenuous. Lying about your finances and now being investigated by the Police says something about how the leave brigade went about their business. <iframe width="26.1400000000001" height="4.840000000000003" style="position: absolute; width: 26.1400000000001px; height: 4.840000000000003px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none;left: 15px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_16610354" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="26.1400000000001" height="4.840000000000003" style="position: absolute; width: 26.14px; height: 4.84px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1244px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_34666256" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="26.1400000000001" height="4.840000000000003" style="position: absolute; width: 26.14px; height: 4.84px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 15px; top: 181px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_36913516" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="26.1400000000001" height="4.840000000000003" style="position: absolute; width: 26.14px; height: 4.84px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1244px; top: 181px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_3939020" scrolling="no"></iframe> Both sides lied about their finances. Nothing new in that. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2018 11:45:04 GMT
No Nobby, it was the Tories that got us into this mess. No Bags, it was politicians of all parties. It was Labour that signed the Lisbon Treaty, behind closed doors and away from the media. Therefore, it was a Labour government that voted that Treaty through the HoC. Also, in the 2015 General Election the Tories, Labour and the Lib Dems all promised a Referendum on the EU in their Manifesto's. Labour certainly didn't. Said it would be a distraction. Good job they were wrong on that! |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2018 11:47:01 GMT
No Bags, it was politicians of all parties. It was Labour that signed the Lisbon Treaty, behind closed doors and away from the media. Therefore, it was a Labour government that voted that Treaty through the HoC. Also, in the 2015 General Election the Tories, Labour and the Lib Dems all promised a Referendum on the EU in their Manifesto's. Labour certainly didn't. Said it would be a distraction. Good job they were wrong on that! Labour 2015 Manifesto.... "Main pledges Legislate for a “lock” that guarantees no transfer of powers from Britain to the EU without an in/out referendum." |
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Post by baggins on Jul 17, 2018 11:49:27 GMT
Lying about your finances and now being investigated by the Police says something about how the leave brigade went about their business. <iframe width="26.1400000000001" height="4.840000000000003" style="position: absolute; width: 26.1400000000001px; height: 4.840000000000003px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none;left: 15px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_16610354" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="26.1400000000001" height="4.840000000000003" style="position: absolute; width: 26.14px; height: 4.84px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1244px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_34666256" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="26.1400000000001" height="4.840000000000003" style="position: absolute; width: 26.14px; height: 4.84px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 15px; top: 181px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_36913516" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="26.1400000000001" height="4.840000000000003" style="position: absolute; width: 26.14px; height: 4.84px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1244px; top: 181px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_3939020" scrolling="no"></iframe> Both sides lied about their finances. Nothing new in that. The remainers lied? Source? Seems like only the leavers are being investigated and prosecuted. If you can find them. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2018 12:06:59 GMT
Labour certainly didn't. Said it would be a distraction. Good job they were wrong on that! Labour 2015 Manifesto.... "Main pledges Legislate for a “lock” that guarantees no transfer of powers from Britain to the EU without an in/out referendum." That's very long way from an unconditional referendum on membership - only voting Tory in 2015 delivered that. To suggest all three parties were offering the same thing, bit far fetched. |
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Jul 17, 2018 12:13:32 GMT
That's disingenuous. The Brexit vote was 1:1 nationally and was as good as 50/50. Constitutency had nothing to do with it. Gerrymandering and boundaries are messed about with all the time to suit the sitting gov to try to protect or totally sway election results. 'As good as 50-50'? Nope, it wasn't 50-50 was it. THAT is being disingenuous. My humble apologies it was 48/52. My 50/50 was far more accurate than your constituency figures though right. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Jul 17, 2018 12:30:01 GMT
'As good as 50-50'? Nope, it wasn't 50-50 was it. THAT is being disingenuous. My humble apologies it was 48/52. My 50/50 was far more accurate than your constituency figures though right. The difference was around 1.3m, so it would only take a small number to have changed their minds for the opposite result. Probably something like the population of Leeds deciding the future of the whole country. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Jul 17, 2018 12:32:53 GMT
That's disingenuous. The Brexit vote was 1:1 nationally and was as good as 50/50. Constitutency had nothing to do with it. Gerrymandering and boundaries are messed about with all the time to suit the sitting gov to try to protect or totally sway election results. 'As good as 50-50'? Nope, it wasn't 50-50 was it. THAT is being disingenuous. Quick question, if the result was 48/52 in favour of remaining, what would Brexiteers do? What would you want the to do? |
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Jul 17, 2018 12:40:03 GMT
'As good as 50-50'? Nope, it wasn't 50-50 was it. THAT is being disingenuous. Quick question, if the result was 48/52 in favour of remaining, what would Brexiteers do? What would you want the to do? They'd carry on protesting and trying to force us out of Europe! Trololol |
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Post by baggins on Jul 17, 2018 12:44:10 GMT
My humble apologies it was 48/52. My 50/50 was far more accurate than your constituency figures though right. The difference was around 1.3m, so it would only take a small number to have changed their minds for the opposite result. Probably something like the population of Leeds deciding the future of the whole country. So basically the ones who bought the £350 mil per week into the NHS and we'll stop the immigrants lie. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2018 13:03:25 GMT
My humble apologies it was 48/52. My 50/50 was far more accurate than your constituency figures though right. The difference was around 1.3m, so it would only take a small number to have changed their minds for the opposite result. Probably something like the population of Leeds deciding the future of the whole country. Using your same argument, it would only take a small number to increase the Leave majority ? Just because the result was close, it doesn't change anything. We are where we are. The last General Election was close. Should we have re-run it? The last Grand National was close. Should we have re-run it? Lots of games in the World Cup were close. Some decided on the opinion of one man, the ref. Should we re-play those games? There was a vote in the HoC last night. I think it was 304-301. That was close. Should they vote again? Of course not. The rules for all these things are laid out beforehand. In life, you get winners and losers, and it's the same in elections/referendums. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2018 13:28:09 GMT
The difference was around 1.3m, so it would only take a small number to have changed their minds for the opposite result. Probably something like the population of Leeds deciding the future of the whole country. Using your same argument, it would only take a small number to increase the Leave majority ? Just because the result was close, it doesn't change anything. We are where we are. The last General Election was close. Should we have re-run it? The last Grand National was close. Should we have re-run it? Lots of games in the World Cup were close. Some decided on the opinion of one man, the ref. Should we re-play those games? There was a vote in the HoC last night. I think it was 304-301. That was close. Should they vote again? Of course not. The rules for all these things are laid out beforehand. In life, you get winners and losers, and it's the same in elections/referendums. All true. So why are the Government incapable of commanding a majority within their own ranks? I would suggest because they have become aware of the consequences, some of which I have already laid out. The only group in Parliament that would leave with no deal regardless is the group led by Reese-Mogg. And that is pure ideology. This is chaos. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2018 13:41:16 GMT
Using your same argument, it would only take a small number to increase the Leave majority ? Just because the result was close, it doesn't change anything. We are where we are. The last General Election was close. Should we have re-run it? The last Grand National was close. Should we have re-run it? Lots of games in the World Cup were close. Some decided on the opinion of one man, the ref. Should we re-play those games? There was a vote in the HoC last night. I think it was 304-301. That was close. Should they vote again? Of course not. The rules for all these things are laid out beforehand. In life, you get winners and losers, and it's the same in elections/referendums. All true. So why are the Government incapable of commanding a majority within their own ranks? I would suggest because they have become aware of the consequences, some of which I have already laid out. The only group in Parliament that would leave with no deal regardless is the group led by Reese-Mogg. And that is pure ideology. This is chaos. It could be argued that the EU have no intention of negotiating a deal. Maybe, the best solution is to leave with No Deal and not pay the 39 Billion. Personally, I think big business will then force the politicians to reach agreements. At the moment, there is no pressure on the EU to reach any agreement. But this half in - half out measure suggested by May is just wrong. |
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Jul 17, 2018 13:46:22 GMT
Using your same argument, it would only take a small number to increase the Leave majority ? Just because the result was close, it doesn't change anything. We are where we are. The last General Election was close. Should we have re-run it? The last Grand National was close. Should we have re-run it? Lots of games in the World Cup were close. Some decided on the opinion of one man, the ref. Should we re-play those games? There was a vote in the HoC last night. I think it was 304-301. That was close. Should they vote again? Of course not. The rules for all these things are laid out beforehand. In life, you get winners and losers, and it's the same in elections/referendums. All true. So why are the Government incapable of commanding a majority within their own ranks? I would suggest because they have become aware of the consequences, some of which I have already laid out. The only group in Parliament that would leave with no deal regardless is the group led by Reese-Mogg. And that is pure ideology. This is chaos. I'm not so sure that is right. The Tories have always been riddled with infighting over Europe much more than Labour and the Liberals. Frankly I've always seen it as a strength that a party is willing to allow that division. Much more healthy than towing the party line sheep of the other major politicians. Sadly in this case it seems to have led to them getting a bloody nose and also allowed/forced them to make such a massive decision based on the smallest of political margin. So shows what I know I guess. |
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