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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2018 15:51:25 GMT
You are right about standards, product standards, animal welfare standards etc. Which begs the question why the fuss from Brexiteers about wanting out of the rules that determine these standards? When it comes to doing deals with other countries the inconvenient truth for Brexiteers is this; Current Negotiations by the EU with; Japan: Free Trade Agreement Mercosur: (Argentina, Brazil, Paraguay, Uruguay), New Association Agreement Australia: Free Trade Agreement New Zealand: Free Trade Agreement Free Trade Agreements In place Albania, Macedonia, Turkey, Bosnia, Montenegro, Ukraine, Georgia, Serbia, Canada, Chile, Mexico, Central American States (Costa Rica, Guatemala and Panama), Colombia, Peru, Ecuador, Egypt, Jordan, Palestine Authority, Gulf Cooperation Council, Lebanon, Southern African Customs Union, Israel, Morocco, Tunisia, Hong Kong, Philippines, South Korea, Singapore. There are 15 other countries negotiating various styles of agreements, including India, Malaysia and Indonesia and Pakistan. Now call me old fashioned but all that adds up to awful lot of customers. Which leaves the Brexiteers clutching at straws with China and America. Although I do wonder how China handles Hong Kong with movement of goods, but that not withstanding doing business with China is a protectionist nightmare as anything of intellectual ownership or under patent they do not pretend that they don't steal. The States is not going to happen whilst Trump is President, or not in a way that is not hopelessly lopsided in favour of the USA. When we leave all the countries above will not be available to British Exporters under the current beneficial trade agreements. What then? We would have to start from scratch with the bargaining power of just our own economy. Well? Your fear of change is clouding your judgement. Open your mind and be positive. To even suggest that the UK cannot 'work' without the EU is just defeatist. While we are in the EU, we are being blocked from expanding our current trade. If negotiated, who is to say that we cannot get even better trade deals than the EU negotiate? Just applying logic Nobby. Those deals are in place negotiated by the largest trading bloc (in economic terms). What are the chances we can do a better deal with tge size of our stand alone economy? And how long would it take? Trade deals are notoriously tortuous to negotiate. We crash out without having the benefits of the current agreements it might take 2-3 years to get one deal with one country. It's a disaster. I laughed when Boris Johnson recently showed off about the growth of exports to South Korea over the last year (most current trading year). What he forgot, or didn't know, was that result was because of the new trade deal negotiated by the EU which we benifitted from. |
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Post by LJG on Jul 16, 2018 16:00:10 GMT
Your fear of change is clouding your judgement. Open your mind and be positive. To even suggest that the UK cannot 'work' without the EU is just defeatist. While we are in the EU, we are being blocked from expanding our current trade. If negotiated, who is to say that we cannot get even better trade deals than the EU negotiate? Just applying logic Nobby. Those deals are in place negotiated by the largest trading bloc (in economic terms). What are the chances we can do a better deal with tge size of our stand alone economy? And how long would it take? Trade deals are notoriously tortuous to negotiate. We crash out without having the benefits of the current agreements it might take 2-3 years to get one deal with one country. It's a disaster. I laughed when Boris Johnson recently showed off about the growth of exports to South Korea over the last year (most current trading year). What he forgot, or didn't know, was that result was because of the new trade deal negotiated by the EU which we benifitted from. The largest trading bloc with some of the lowest growth in the world. Why is it people always miss off the last part of that sentence? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2018 16:10:05 GMT
Just applying logic Nobby. Those deals are in place negotiated by the largest trading bloc (in economic terms). What are the chances we can do a better deal with tge size of our stand alone economy? And how long would it take? Trade deals are notoriously tortuous to negotiate. We crash out without having the benefits of the current agreements it might take 2-3 years to get one deal with one country. It's a disaster. I laughed when Boris Johnson recently showed off about the growth of exports to South Korea over the last year (most current trading year). What he forgot, or didn't know, was that result was because of the new trade deal negotiated by the EU which we benifitted from. The largest trading bloc with some of the lowest growth in the world. Why is it people always miss off the last part of that sentence? Growth rates come and go. When individual countries look at the EU they look at the size of the economy, in aggregate, the population in total, and the ease of moving goods around under one common law and jurisdiction. Direct Inward Investment into the UK has been a success story, and in no small part because of that. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2018 18:32:23 GMT
If anyone truly believes this March 2019 armageddon where the UK is little more than a wasteland because all the major companies have left and all the small firms have gone bust why are they hanging around. Surely they would have left for the utopia of the remaining 'united' Europe? I heard all the scaremongering about an immediate slump into financial oblivion that was going to occur with hours of the referendum and that hasn't happened. I agree there will be some difficult times in the short term but the long term best interests of the UK will be served with separation from the EU, it's just a shame that we didn't do it far earlier before the strangulating tentacles of the EU got us in a death hold. It wasn't going to be as bad as was suggested, that was part of a really bad campaign. However, do you believe that it is going to be a good as the Leave campaign said? One prominent brexit economist said it will be 10 years at least before we start to benefit, and that there will be a loss in the interim period. None of us know how good or bad it will be post brexit. Remainers catastrophise it, brexiteers play down the potential problems ahead. Personally, I think there may be a year or two of difficulties but when it is in the interest of both us and our trading partners deals will be set up relatively quickly. This country has come through worse and we'll come through this for the better. There was no way I was ever going to vote remain purely to keep a steady ship in the short term when in the long term we will be far better out of this power mad dictatorship called the EU. The likes of Juncker, Barnier etc are protecting the gravy train that has made them millionaires. They have to play hardball to scare any one else from leaving. If their organisation was such a fantastic place they would back themselves and cooperate with a resolution that is in the interest of their individual members. They clearly fear us being a success - once that happens other countries will be under huge pressure from their citizens to leave and the whole cartel will come tumbling down. The first to follow will be the biggest contributors fed up with subsidising the weaker states. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2018 18:49:31 GMT
It wasn't going to be as bad as was suggested, that was part of a really bad campaign. However, do you believe that it is going to be a good as the Leave campaign said? One prominent brexit economist said it will be 10 years at least before we start to benefit, and that there will be a loss in the interim period. None of us know how good or bad it will be post brexit. Remainers catastrophise it, brexiteers play down the potential problems ahead. Personally, I think there may be a year or two of difficulties but when it is in the interest of both us and our trading partners deals will be set up relatively quickly. This country has come through worse and we'll come through this for the better. There was no way I was ever going to vote remain purely to keep a steady ship in the short term when in the long term we will be far better out of this power mad dictatorship called the EU. The likes of Juncker, Barnier etc are protecting the gravy train that has made them millionaires. They have to play hardball to scare any one else from leaving. If their organisation was such a fantastic place they would back themselves and cooperate with a resolution that is in the interest of their individual members. They clearly fear us being a success - once that happens other countries will be under huge pressure from their citizens to leave and the whole cartel will come tumbling down. The first to follow will be the biggest contributors fed up with subsidising the weaker states. Sorry mate. That post is completely devoid of any factual basis, but based purely on your own speculative opinion. Fair enough, you are free to think and vote as you will. But in debate, don't pretend that your opinion has any basis in reality. |
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Jul 16, 2018 19:08:05 GMT
It wasn't going to be as bad as was suggested, that was part of a really bad campaign. However, do you believe that it is going to be a good as the Leave campaign said? One prominent brexit economist said it will be 10 years at least before we start to benefit, and that there will be a loss in the interim period. None of us know how good or bad it will be post brexit. Remainers catastrophise it, brexiteers play down the potential problems ahead. Personally, I think there may be a year or two of difficulties but when it is in the interest of both us and our trading partners deals will be set up relatively quickly. This country has come through worse and we'll come through this for the better. There was no way I was ever going to vote remain purely to keep a steady ship in the short term when in the long term we will be far better out of this power mad dictatorship called the EU. The likes of Juncker, Barnier etc are protecting the gravy train that has made them millionaires. They have to play hardball to scare any one else from leaving. If their organisation was such a fantastic place they would back themselves and cooperate with a resolution that is in the interest of their individual members. They clearly fear us being a success - once that happens other countries will be under huge pressure from their citizens to leave and the whole cartel will come tumbling down. The first to follow will be the biggest contributors fed up with subsidising the weaker states. I agree with what you say except your conclusion. The remaining EU states have a vested interest in seeing us fail so they can stop others leaving. I think that they will succeed in Dam us over sufficiently to deter others. |
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Post by LJG on Jul 16, 2018 19:17:32 GMT
The largest trading bloc with some of the lowest growth in the world. Why is it people always miss off the last part of that sentence? Growth rates come and go. When individual countries look at the EU they look at the size of the economy, in aggregate, the population in total, and the ease of moving goods around under one common law and jurisdiction. Direct Inward Investment into the UK has been a success story, and in no small part because of that. Well growth rates over the last 40 years are a bit more permanent than "come and go" and in any case they are a statement of fact and not just subjective fluff. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2018 19:21:23 GMT
None of us know how good or bad it will be post brexit. Remainers catastrophise it, brexiteers play down the potential problems ahead. Personally, I think there may be a year or two of difficulties but when it is in the interest of both us and our trading partners deals will be set up relatively quickly. This country has come through worse and we'll come through this for the better. There was no way I was ever going to vote remain purely to keep a steady ship in the short term when in the long term we will be far better out of this power mad dictatorship called the EU. The likes of Juncker, Barnier etc are protecting the gravy train that has made them millionaires. They have to play hardball to scare any one else from leaving. If their organisation was such a fantastic place they would back themselves and cooperate with a resolution that is in the interest of their individual members. They clearly fear us being a success - once that happens other countries will be under huge pressure from their citizens to leave and the whole cartel will come tumbling down. The first to follow will be the biggest contributors fed up with subsidising the weaker states. I agree with what you say except your conclusion. The remaining EU states have a vested interest in seeing us fail so they can stop others leaving. I think that they will succeed in f**king us over sufficiently to deter others. As a collective organisation they will want to f**k us over but once the dust has settled there are many European countries that will still be trading with us and lack of a fair trade deal will hurt them too. Biting off your nose to spite your face. Like I said earlier I think there will be short term pain which will be of long term gain once we are free from the ever power mad grip of the EU. Why could it not have just remained a trading bloc instead of its gradual taking over of our justice systems, immigration policies etc? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2018 19:30:24 GMT
None of us know how good or bad it will be post brexit. Remainers catastrophise it, brexiteers play down the potential problems ahead. Personally, I think there may be a year or two of difficulties but when it is in the interest of both us and our trading partners deals will be set up relatively quickly. This country has come through worse and we'll come through this for the better. There was no way I was ever going to vote remain purely to keep a steady ship in the short term when in the long term we will be far better out of this power mad dictatorship called the EU. The likes of Juncker, Barnier etc are protecting the gravy train that has made them millionaires. They have to play hardball to scare any one else from leaving. If their organisation was such a fantastic place they would back themselves and cooperate with a resolution that is in the interest of their individual members. They clearly fear us being a success - once that happens other countries will be under huge pressure from their citizens to leave and the whole cartel will come tumbling down. The first to follow will be the biggest contributors fed up with subsidising the weaker states. Sorry mate. That post is completely devoid of any factual basis, but based purely on your own speculative opinion. Fair enough, you are free to think and vote as you will. But in debate, don't pretend that your opinion has any basis in reality. Where have I claimed to be stating facts? I opened the post by saying none of us know how good or bad it will be post brexit but perhaps if you have facts for each scenario you could share them. I was giving my own personal opinion which is why I stated "Personally I think.." You are clearly dismissive of anyone holding a different opinion and are free to have a view that only your opinions "have any basis in reality" |
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Post by stuart1974 on Jul 16, 2018 21:36:22 GMT
Well it looks like the Chequers deal is unravelling at a pace. JR-M has won concessions and an able defence minister had resigned too.
Probably just a stalling tactic by TM to get to the summer recess without the threatened ERG vote of confidence.
Will it work? Maybe, but it will only resume in the autumn anyway. Kicking cans down roads will only get us so far.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2018 5:51:15 GMT
None of us know how good or bad it will be post brexit. Remainers catastrophise it, brexiteers play down the potential problems ahead. Personally, I think there may be a year or two of difficulties but when it is in the interest of both us and our trading partners deals will be set up relatively quickly. This country has come through worse and we'll come through this for the better. There was no way I was ever going to vote remain purely to keep a steady ship in the short term when in the long term we will be far better out of this power mad dictatorship called the EU. The likes of Juncker, Barnier etc are protecting the gravy train that has made them millionaires. They have to play hardball to scare any one else from leaving. If their organisation was such a fantastic place they would back themselves and cooperate with a resolution that is in the interest of their individual members. They clearly fear us being a success - once that happens other countries will be under huge pressure from their citizens to leave and the whole cartel will come tumbling down. The first to follow will be the biggest contributors fed up with subsidising the weaker states. Sorry mate. That post is completely devoid of any factual basis, but based purely on your own speculative opinion. Fair enough, you are free to think and vote as you will. But in debate, don't pretend that your opinion has any basis in reality. I'm amazed Oldie. You criticize others saying that their posts are 'completely devoid of any factual basis, but based purely on your own speculative opinion.', yet your posts are exactly the same! Brexit is a one-off. Nobody has ever done it before, therefore nobody can foretell exactly what will happen. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2018 5:55:48 GMT
I think the word 'trusting' is stretching it a bit far. I would never ever trust any politician, of any variety ! I'm just saying that it was the political class (and the Civil Service) that got us into this mess, so they can now get us out of it, as has been decided by the British Electorate. No Nobby, it was the Tories that got us into this mess. No Bags, it was politicians of all parties. It was Labour that signed the Lisbon Treaty, behind closed doors and away from the media. Therefore, it was a Labour government that voted that Treaty through the HoC. Also, in the 2015 General Election the Tories, Labour and the Lib Dems all promised a Referendum on the EU in their Manifesto's. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2018 6:10:43 GMT
It is obvious that some people are frightened of change. They fear what may happen instead of being optimistic about the future of the UK. Maybe it's better the devil you know rather than being bold?
Anyway, one point that was never raised during the Referendum Debate, and has also not been addressed since the Referendum, is just what is the future of the EU? What is the end game? What are the politicians planning for the future of the EU?
Well, what do we know? Ever closer integration seems to be the way forward. This will include tax harmonization across the EU. The same will apply to Laws. We will see an EU Army, and based on my personal experience I can only see that ending in disaster. The future of the EU will see an end to the sovereign state as the plan is for a United States of Europe. Any future decisions taken by the EU will at first be agreed between the current German Chancellor and the French President. It has always been so and will not change. Even now, if there is any crisis affecting Europe, these two people always meet first to decide what course of action to take, and the EU then has to implement their decisions.
Plans are already being drawn up in Brussels to tax YOU individually with the tax going directly from your pay packet to the EU. The EU want to do away with being funded by various governments, because every so many years they have to haggle and try to drag money from the sovereign states. As they plan to get rid of the sovereign states, direct taxation of individuals is the way forward.
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Post by Officer Barbrady on Jul 17, 2018 6:33:57 GMT
It is obvious that some people are frightened of change. They fear what may happen instead of being optimistic about the future of the UK. Maybe it's better the devil you know rather than being bold? Anyway, one point that was never raised during the Referendum Debate, and has also not been addressed since the Referendum, is just what is the future of the EU? What is the end game? What are the politicians planning for the future of the EU? Well, what do we know? Ever closer integration seems to be the way forward. This will include tax harmonization across the EU. The same will apply to Laws. We will see an EU Army, and based on my personal experience I can only see that ending in disaster. The future of the EU will see an end to the sovereign state as the plan is for a United States of Europe. Any future decisions taken by the EU will at first be agreed between the current German Chancellor and the French President. It has always been so and will not change. Even now, if there is any crisis affecting Europe, these two people always meet first to decide what course of action to take, and the EU then has to implement their decisions. Plans are already being drawn up in Brussels to tax YOU individually with the tax going directly from your pay packet to the EU. The EU want to do away with being funded by various governments, because every so many years they have to haggle and try to drag money from the sovereign states. As they plan to get rid of the sovereign states, direct taxation of individuals is the way forward. I think it's very easy to blame fear of change. Many have a genuine fear though and I think this sort of belittles their anguish about their jobs, security, welfare etc if I'm honest. It's probably difficult to jump on the optimism bus when you're just about making ends meet and you know something like this is being cack handedly conducted in the background by the austerity government. The stuff at the end I don't even know what to say about. Wasn't it the leavers accused of project fear? It reads like a propaganda pamphlet and is not particularly useful to the debate seeming as the vote has already been cast. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2018 6:45:34 GMT
It is obvious that some people are frightened of change. They fear what may happen instead of being optimistic about the future of the UK. Maybe it's better the devil you know rather than being bold? Anyway, one point that was never raised during the Referendum Debate, and has also not been addressed since the Referendum, is just what is the future of the EU? What is the end game? What are the politicians planning for the future of the EU? Well, what do we know? Ever closer integration seems to be the way forward. This will include tax harmonization across the EU. The same will apply to Laws. We will see an EU Army, and based on my personal experience I can only see that ending in disaster. The future of the EU will see an end to the sovereign state as the plan is for a United States of Europe. Any future decisions taken by the EU will at first be agreed between the current German Chancellor and the French President. It has always been so and will not change. Even now, if there is any crisis affecting Europe, these two people always meet first to decide what course of action to take, and the EU then has to implement their decisions. Plans are already being drawn up in Brussels to tax YOU individually with the tax going directly from your pay packet to the EU. The EU want to do away with being funded by various governments, because every so many years they have to haggle and try to drag money from the sovereign states. As they plan to get rid of the sovereign states, direct taxation of individuals is the way forward. I think it's very easy to blame fear of change. Many have a genuine fear though and I think this sort of belittles their anguish about their jobs, security, welfare etc if I'm honest. It's probably difficult to jump on the optimism bus when you're just about making ends meet and you know something like this is being cack handedly conducted in the background by the austerity government. The stuff at the end I don't even know what to say about. Wasn't it the leavers accused of project fear? It reads like a propaganda pamphlet and is not particularly useful to the debate seeming as the vote has already been cast. No, not propaganda, just factual policies being pushed by the EU. The point I am making is that there hasn't been any discussion or debate on the future of the EU. |
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Jul 17, 2018 7:29:18 GMT
I think it's very easy to blame fear of change. Many have a genuine fear though and I think this sort of belittles their anguish about their jobs, security, welfare etc if I'm honest. It's probably difficult to jump on the optimism bus when you're just about making ends meet and you know something like this is being cack handedly conducted in the background by the austerity government. The stuff at the end I don't even know what to say about. Wasn't it the leavers accused of project fear? It reads like a propaganda pamphlet and is not particularly useful to the debate seeming as the vote has already been cast. No, not propaganda, just factual policies being pushed by the EU. The point I am making is that there hasn't been any discussion or debate on the future of the EU. There wasn't any proper debate about leaving the EU either, just lots of scaremongering, lies and arrogance from both sides. The fact that we are doing something so important for the country based on that is an utter disgrace regardless of which side won the vote. The vote has been cast and must be abided by but the lying bastards (Red, Blue and Yellow) should be held to account but won't be sadly. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Jul 17, 2018 7:52:10 GMT
It is obvious that some people are frightened of change. They fear what may happen instead of being optimistic about the future of the UK. Maybe it's better the devil you know rather than being bold? Anyway, one point that was never raised during the Referendum Debate, and has also not been addressed since the Referendum, is just what is the future of the EU? What is the end game? What are the politicians planning for the future of the EU? Well, what do we know? Ever closer integration seems to be the way forward. This will include tax harmonization across the EU. The same will apply to Laws. We will see an EU Army, and based on my personal experience I can only see that ending in disaster. The future of the EU will see an end to the sovereign state as the plan is for a United States of Europe. Any future decisions taken by the EU will at first be agreed between the current German Chancellor and the French President. It has always been so and will not change. Even now, if there is any crisis affecting Europe, these two people always meet first to decide what course of action to take, and the EU then has to implement their decisions. Plans are already being drawn up in Brussels to tax YOU individually with the tax going directly from your pay packet to the EU. The EU want to do away with being funded by various governments, because every so many years they have to haggle and try to drag money from the sovereign states. As they plan to get rid of the sovereign states, direct taxation of individuals is the way forward. I don't agree that it is just frightened of change, it was also being frightened to stay. Don't forget the Turkey reference for example and as you have commented yourself, the fear of further integration. None of which is definate and had we stayed we always would have had a veto. Not any more. I didn't vote to remain out of fear, although concern of the mechanisms, timings and uncertainty for business did play a part in confirming my vote, I voted to remain because I saw years of obfuscation, infighting and stagnation in politics for no real tangible gain other than for those who wanted to leave for purely political reasons. The world is getting more and more interdependent on and with each other. Leaving won't alter that nor will it help in my opinion. By working together we had a better chance to shape EU international policy and in turn using the EU to shape world events. Europe has been dominated by a triumverate of Britain, France and Germany (or their forebears) for hundreds of years. We joined the Common Market to screw the French by splitting them off from the Germans and maintain that balance. By leaving we no longer have a voice and the things you mention are more likely to happen, at least in economic terms. As far as an EU army goes, we had that debate in 2016 and I still see no appetite (apart from a few who hold little real power) to have a formal army under the control of Brussels, there is likely to be more shared infrastructure and Headquarters/command centres but citizens signing up direct, no. For a start, no French President will give authority of its nuclear assets away and despite Trump, Washington still cares. What happens to the EU, it may integrate further, it may collapse, it may remain largely unchanged in our lifetime, but just like an ex wife who remarries, now we are leaving that is rather a moot point as we no longer have a say. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2018 8:51:07 GMT
Sorry mate. That post is completely devoid of any factual basis, but based purely on your own speculative opinion. Fair enough, you are free to think and vote as you will. But in debate, don't pretend that your opinion has any basis in reality. I'm amazed Oldie. You criticize others saying that their posts are 'completely devoid of any factual basis, but based purely on your own speculative opinion.', yet your posts are exactly the same! Brexit is a one-off. Nobody has ever done it before, therefore nobody can foretell exactly what will happen. But one can show, factually, the free trade agreements we will walk away from if we leave the single market. As I have done. You cannot deny it, it's a matter of record |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2018 9:59:12 GMT
Another one comes to fruition. UK will walk away from this as well, if we leave the single market and Customs Union. EU to sign its biggest free trade deal with Japan flip.it/aC5R3x |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2018 10:43:05 GMT
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