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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2018 12:18:58 GMT
Why should the UK pay any Premium for access when there are many other countries outside the EU who do not pay? Let's not forget that the EU export far more into the UK than the UK exports to the EU. What about countries like China, Japan, South Korea and the US? They do not have 'common standards' with the EU, but they have to produce goods that meet EU Standards if they wish to export to the EU. This is normal and I really don't know what the fuss is about. Right now, ANY British company that exports to say, the US, has to produce goods that meet the US standards. The same for China, for Japan etc etc etc. Producing goods that meet different National standards already goes on. Anyway, who is to say that British Standards will be lower than the EU standards? Remember the days when a "Made in the UK" mark was considered a mark of quality throughout the world? We already trade with the rest of the world under WTO rules. The reason for that is because we (as a sovereign Nation) cannot strike any trade deals. If we have to go to WTO rules to trade with the EU, then it will cost them far more than it costs us, so the emphasis is on them to agree a trade deal. At the moment the EU just say 'no' to ANY proposal the UK put forward. Also, this thread needs to be renamed to The Brexit Betrayal. You are right about standards, product standards, animal welfare standards etc. Which begs the question why the fuss from Brexiteers about wanting out of the rules that determine these standards? When it comes to doing deals with other countries the inconvenient truth for Brexiteers is this; Current Negotiations by the EU with; Japan: Free Trade Agreement Mercosur: (Argentina, Brazil, Paraguay, Uruguay), New Association Agreement Australia: Free Trade Agreement New Zealand: Free Trade Agreement Free Trade Agreements In place Albania, Macedonia, Turkey, Bosnia, Montenegro, Ukraine, Georgia, Serbia, Canada, Chile, Mexico, Central American States (Costa Rica, Guatemala and Panama), Colombia, Peru, Ecuador, Egypt, Jordan, Palestine Authority, Gulf Cooperation Council, Lebanon, Southern African Customs Union, Israel, Morocco, Tunisia, Hong Kong, Philippines, South Korea, Singapore. There are 15 other countries negotiating various styles of agreements, including India, Malaysia and Indonesia and Pakistan. Now call me old fashioned but all that adds up to awful lot of customers. Which leaves the Brexiteers clutching at straws with China and America. Although I do wonder how China handles Hong Kong with movement of goods, but that not withstanding doing business with China is a protectionist nightmare as anything of intellectual ownership or under patent they do not pretend that they don't steal. The States is not going to happen whilst Trump is President, or not in a way that is not hopelessly lopsided in favour of the USA. When we leave all the countries above will not be available to British Exporters under the current beneficial trade agreements. What then? We would have to start from scratch with the bargaining power of just our own economy. Well? Your fear of change is clouding your judgement. Open your mind and be positive. To even suggest that the UK cannot 'work' without the EU is just defeatist. While we are in the EU, we are being blocked from expanding our current trade. If negotiated, who is to say that we cannot get even better trade deals than the EU negotiate? |
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Post by stuart1974 on Jul 16, 2018 12:32:03 GMT
So, to bring this into basic terms, are we saying that even though we are at the front of the queue at Miss Millie's a mate has just heard a rumour that 5 miles up the road KFC may be offering a free side order with the bargain bucket?
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Post by baggins on Jul 16, 2018 12:54:08 GMT
You are right about standards, product standards, animal welfare standards etc. Which begs the question why the fuss from Brexiteers about wanting out of the rules that determine these standards? When it comes to doing deals with other countries the inconvenient truth for Brexiteers is this; Current Negotiations by the EU with; Japan: Free Trade Agreement Mercosur: (Argentina, Brazil, Paraguay, Uruguay), New Association Agreement Australia: Free Trade Agreement New Zealand: Free Trade Agreement Free Trade Agreements In place Albania, Macedonia, Turkey, Bosnia, Montenegro, Ukraine, Georgia, Serbia, Canada, Chile, Mexico, Central American States (Costa Rica, Guatemala and Panama), Colombia, Peru, Ecuador, Egypt, Jordan, Palestine Authority, Gulf Cooperation Council, Lebanon, Southern African Customs Union, Israel, Morocco, Tunisia, Hong Kong, Philippines, South Korea, Singapore. There are 15 other countries negotiating various styles of agreements, including India, Malaysia and Indonesia and Pakistan. Now call me old fashioned but all that adds up to awful lot of customers. Which leaves the Brexiteers clutching at straws with China and America. Although I do wonder how China handles Hong Kong with movement of goods, but that not withstanding doing business with China is a protectionist nightmare as anything of intellectual ownership or under patent they do not pretend that they don't steal. The States is not going to happen whilst Trump is President, or not in a way that is not hopelessly lopsided in favour of the USA. When we leave all the countries above will not be available to British Exporters under the current beneficial trade agreements. What then? We would have to start from scratch with the bargaining power of just our own economy. Well? Your fear of change is clouding your judgement. Open your mind and be positive. To even suggest that the UK cannot 'work' without the EU is just defeatist. While we are in the EU, we are being blocked from expanding our current trade. If negotiated, who is to say that we cannot get even better trade deals than the EU negotiate? So trade, outside the EU with Countries we had trade deals with as part of the EU? Not a chance. |
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Jul 16, 2018 12:54:54 GMT
So, to bring this into basic terms, are we saying that even though we are at the front of the queue at Miss Millie's a mate has just heard a rumour that 5 miles up the road KFC may be offering a free side order with the bargain bucket? Yeah but all the people driving the car have already f**ked off home. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2018 13:05:18 GMT
Your fear of change is clouding your judgement. Open your mind and be positive. To even suggest that the UK cannot 'work' without the EU is just defeatist. While we are in the EU, we are being blocked from expanding our current trade. If negotiated, who is to say that we cannot get even better trade deals than the EU negotiate? So trade, outside the EU with Countries we had trade deals with as part of the EU? Not a chance. Why not? |
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Post by baggins on Jul 16, 2018 13:06:50 GMT
So trade, outside the EU with Countries we had trade deals with as part of the EU? Not a chance. Why not? Because we can't offer the trade we had before!! |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2018 13:10:04 GMT
Because we can't offer the trade we had before!! As the UK is what, the fifth/sixth largest economy in the world, don't you think that that list of relatively small nations would jump at the chance of a trading deal with the UK? Of course they would. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Jul 16, 2018 13:25:47 GMT
So, to bring this into basic terms, are we saying that even though we are at the front of the queue at Miss Millie's a mate has just heard a rumour that 5 miles up the road KFC may be offering a free side order with the bargain bucket? Yeah but all the people driving the car have already f**ked off home. I thought walking was implicit, bearing in mind the backseat driver who was envious of not owning the car has lost the keys and then caught a taxi. Any resemblance to Boris is purely circumstantial. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Jul 16, 2018 13:28:08 GMT
Because we can't offer the trade we had before!! As the UK is what, the fifth/sixth largest economy in the world, don't you think that that list of relatively small nations would jump at the chance of a trading deal with the UK? Of course they would. I don't doubt we can do deals, but will they be better than we have and if so, will the improvements make up for losses elsewhere? Also, and possibly more importantly, when are we doing these deals? How many years will they take? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2018 13:32:10 GMT
As the UK is what, the fifth/sixth largest economy in the world, don't you think that that list of relatively small nations would jump at the chance of a trading deal with the UK? Of course they would. I don't doubt we can do deals, but will they be better than we have and if so, will the improvements make up for losses elsewhere? Also, and possibly more importantly, when are we doing these deals? How many years will they take? Don't ask me, ask Liam Fox ! It's the political class (and the Civil Service) that voted through various Treaties in the HoC without any understanding of what they meant, that has got us into this mess. They can now get their arses into gear and get us out of it ! |
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Jul 16, 2018 13:34:53 GMT
I don't doubt we can do deals, but will they be better than we have and if so, will the improvements make up for losses elsewhere? Also, and possibly more importantly, when are we doing these deals? How many years will they take? Don't ask me, ask Liam Fox ! It's the political class (and the Civil Service) that voted through various Treaties in the HoC without any understanding of what they meant, that has got us into this mess. They can now get their arses into gear and get us out of it ! Except they can't/won't because they've all quit!! It's bizarre that the Tories chose May to lead Brexit when it's clear she doesn't want out! I don't like the result but we have to live with it and get it done, not fanny about doing neither one thing nor the other. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Jul 16, 2018 13:39:32 GMT
I don't doubt we can do deals, but will they be better than we have and if so, will the improvements make up for losses elsewhere? Also, and possibly more importantly, when are we doing these deals? How many years will they take? Don't ask me, ask Liam Fox ! It's the political class (and the Civil Service) that voted through various Treaties in the HoC without any understanding of what they meant, that has got us into this mess. They can now get their arses into gear and get us out of it ! So you are trusting to Liam Fox and a bunch of politicians who have a track record of getting us into a mess. Okay. |
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Post by baggins on Jul 16, 2018 13:46:08 GMT
Because we can't offer the trade we had before!! As the UK is what, the fifth/sixth largest economy in the world, don't you think that that list of relatively small nations would jump at the chance of a trading deal with the UK? Of course they would. If we're that good trading with the World, why the hell did we join the EU in the first place then? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2018 14:02:43 GMT
As the UK is what, the fifth/sixth largest economy in the world, don't you think that that list of relatively small nations would jump at the chance of a trading deal with the UK? Of course they would. If we're that good trading with the World, why the hell did we join the EU in the first place then? C'mon Bags - Historically, the UK has been one of the greatest trading nations in the world ! and we didn't join the EU. We joined the Common Market. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2018 14:05:10 GMT
Don't ask me, ask Liam Fox ! It's the political class (and the Civil Service) that voted through various Treaties in the HoC without any understanding of what they meant, that has got us into this mess. They can now get their arses into gear and get us out of it ! So you are trusting to Liam Fox and a bunch of politicians who have a track record of getting us into a mess. Okay. I think the word 'trusting' is stretching it a bit far. I would never ever trust any politician, of any variety ! I'm just saying that it was the political class (and the Civil Service) that got us into this mess, so they can now get us out of it, as has been decided by the British Electorate. |
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Post by baggins on Jul 16, 2018 14:26:27 GMT
If we're that good trading with the World, why the hell did we join the EU in the first place then? C'mon Bags - Historically, the UK has been one of the greatest trading nations in the world ! and we didn't join the EU. We joined the Common Market. Living in the past Nobby. We trade nothing, we own nothing, we have nothing! And now we've left the one thing we relied on. |
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Post by baggins on Jul 16, 2018 14:27:35 GMT
So you are trusting to Liam Fox and a bunch of politicians who have a track record of getting us into a mess. Okay. I think the word 'trusting' is stretching it a bit far. I would never ever trust any politician, of any variety ! I'm just saying that it was the political class (and the Civil Service) that got us into this mess, so they can now get us out of it, as has been decided by the British Electorate. No Nobby, it was the Tories that got us into this mess. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2018 15:09:15 GMT
If anyone truly believes this March 2019 armageddon where the UK is little more than a wasteland because all the major companies have left and all the small firms have gone bust why are they hanging around. Surely they would have left for the utopia of the remaining 'united' Europe?
I heard all the scaremongering about an immediate slump into financial oblivion that was going to occur with hours of the referendum and that hasn't happened. I agree there will be some difficult times in the short term but the long term best interests of the UK will be served with separation from the EU, it's just a shame that we didn't do it far earlier before the strangulating tentacles of the EU got us in a death hold.
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Jul 16, 2018 15:28:05 GMT
If anyone truly believes this March 2019 armageddon where the UK is little more than a wasteland because all the major companies have left and all the small firms have gone bust why are they hanging around. Surely they would have left for the utopia of the remaining 'united' Europe? I heard all the scaremongering about an immediate slump into financial oblivion that was going to occur with hours of the referendum and that hasn't happened. I agree there will be some difficult times in the short term but the long term best interests of the UK will be served with separation from the EU, it's just a shame that we didn't do it far earlier before the strangulating tentacles of the EU got us in a death hold. My last company went bust because their main customer was Italian owned and pulled out almost immediately following the referendum. My current employer does a lot of work for an American company and they are currently in the process of moving work out of the UK back to the US. The Brexit vote has certainly hit manufacturing. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Jul 16, 2018 15:39:25 GMT
If anyone truly believes this March 2019 armageddon where the UK is little more than a wasteland because all the major companies have left and all the small firms have gone bust why are they hanging around. Surely they would have left for the utopia of the remaining 'united' Europe? I heard all the scaremongering about an immediate slump into financial oblivion that was going to occur with hours of the referendum and that hasn't happened. I agree there will be some difficult times in the short term but the long term best interests of the UK will be served with separation from the EU, it's just a shame that we didn't do it far earlier before the strangulating tentacles of the EU got us in a death hold. It wasn't going to be as bad as was suggested, that was part of a really bad campaign. However, do you believe that it is going to be a good as the Leave campaign said? One prominent brexit economist said it will be 10 years at least before we start to benefit, and that there will be a loss in the interim period. |
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