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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2018 7:51:18 GMT
Surely Cameron is the one to blame for this mess. He came back from Brussels with a sh*t deal, then threw a wobbly when he was criticised for it. His impetuous response was to call the referendum. Having said that, the EU is in a right mess. The UK isn't the only country kicking up against Brussels - Italy, Poland, Austria, Czech etc. France is a mess socially and economicaly and now Germany is taking a close look at the 'books'. Politically here we are in a really bad state. We used to be so good at politics (sure, there were problems now & again) but I'm just wondering whether we've become weak and confused as a result of recent years' membership of the EU. No-one can call the EU politicians strong, decisive & accountable. Cameron got a sh1t deal, because behind the scenes and in private, he was boasting to the other EU leaders that the Referendum was certain to go their way. He estimated by at least 60-40. They had no need to give anything away because he assured them that the remain vote was certain to win ! |
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Post by South Stand Ultra on Jul 16, 2018 8:30:12 GMT
Justine Greening has today called for a second referendum, has she just accepted it and got on with it? To be fair she hasn't got a history of this so using an exception to prove the rule isn't really confirming your post. Also it is not a straight forward rerun, but including the "deal" as an additional option with preference votes used. If you were PM, what would you do? What would you like to happen now? What would I like to happen now? Leave the EU, just as we democratically voted to do. No second referendum, no ifs, no buts, leave. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2018 8:33:51 GMT
To be fair she hasn't got a history of this so using an exception to prove the rule isn't really confirming your post. Also it is not a straight forward rerun, but including the "deal" as an additional option with preference votes used. If you were PM, what would you do? What would you like to happen now? What would I like to happen now? Leave the EU, just as we democratically voted to do. No second referendum, no ifs, no buts, leave. And do what on trade and with whom? |
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Post by stuart1974 on Jul 16, 2018 8:34:54 GMT
To be fair she hasn't got a history of this so using an exception to prove the rule isn't really confirming your post. Also it is not a straight forward rerun, but including the "deal" as an additional option with preference votes used. If you were PM, what would you do? What would you like to happen now? What would I like to happen now? Leave the EU, just as we democratically voted to do. No second referendum, no ifs, no buts, leave. Fair enough. Next question, how? WTO rules or negotiated trade deal? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2018 8:35:01 GMT
Funnily enough Greening has called for exactly what I suggested earlier
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Post by stuart1974 on Jul 16, 2018 8:36:20 GMT
Surely Cameron is the one to blame for this mess. He came back from Brussels with a sh*t deal, then threw a wobbly when he was criticised for it. His impetuous response was to call the referendum. Having said that, the EU is in a right mess. The UK isn't the only country kicking up against Brussels - Italy, Poland, Austria, Czech etc. France is a mess socially and economicaly and now Germany is taking a close look at the 'books'. Politically here we are in a really bad state. We used to be so good at politics (sure, there were problems now & again) but I'm just wondering whether we've become weak and confused as a result of recent years' membership of the EU. No-one can call the EU politicians strong, decisive & accountable. Cameron got a sh1t deal, because behind the scenes and in private, he was boasting to the other EU leaders that the Referendum was certain to go their way. He estimated by at least 60-40. They had no need to give anything away because he assured them that the remain vote was certain to win ! I blame de Gaulle. |
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Post by South Stand Ultra on Jul 16, 2018 8:37:11 GMT
What would I like to happen now? Leave the EU, just as we democratically voted to do. No second referendum, no ifs, no buts, leave. Fair enough. Next question, how? WTO rules or negotiated trade deal? You go to the EU, these are our demands, what were willing to give & receive. Take it or leave it. We don't have to do a deal with the EU to leave, so we go either way. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Jul 16, 2018 8:42:13 GMT
Funnily enough Greening has called for exactly what I suggested earlier I wonder how it would go? Without enough support for either initial option would it just rubber stamp the deal? |
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Post by stuart1974 on Jul 16, 2018 8:55:07 GMT
Fair enough. Next question, how? WTO rules or negotiated trade deal? You go to the EU, these are our demands, what were willing to give & receive. Take it or leave it. We don't have to do a deal with the EU to leave, so we go either way. Again fair enough. So if the EU says we don't like our initial plan do you compromise with say free(er) movement of people or pay a premium for access? What are your red and pink lines? Do you accept delays at ports (Norway has 30 minutes delays and Switzerland closer to 2 hours)? Do you accept common standards or run two simultaneous production lines when things diverge with their implicit costs? Or we leave on WTO rules which means a tariff of between 3 and 10% on goods and services. Which incidentally means a tariff on all goods worldwide and not just EU ones as we have to apply the same rules to everyone we don't have trade deals with. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2018 9:13:11 GMT
Why should the UK pay any Premium for access when there are many other countries outside the EU who do not pay? Let's not forget that the EU export far more into the UK than the UK exports to the EU.
What about countries like China, Japan, South Korea and the US? They do not have 'common standards' with the EU, but they have to produce goods that meet EU Standards if they wish to export to the EU. This is normal and I really don't know what the fuss is about. Right now, ANY British company that exports to say, the US, has to produce goods that meet the US standards. The same for China, for Japan etc etc etc. Producing goods that meet different National standards already goes on.
Anyway, who is to say that British Standards will be lower than the EU standards? Remember the days when a "Made in the UK" mark was considered a mark of quality throughout the world?
We already trade with the rest of the world under WTO rules. The reason for that is because we (as a sovereign Nation) cannot strike any trade deals. If we have to go to WTO rules to trade with the EU, then it will cost them far more than it costs us, so the emphasis is on them to agree a trade deal. At the moment the EU just say 'no' to ANY proposal the UK put forward.
Also, this thread needs to be renamed to The Brexit Betrayal.
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Post by stuart1974 on Jul 16, 2018 9:33:37 GMT
Because it is costs we don't actually pay now. Are we comparing like with like in terms of size of businesses, cost of staff? We have some trade deals with other countries due to our existing membership of the EU, will these carryover or do we need to start again?
Cost the EU more? In cash terms maybe, but not as a percentage. Besides, don't we want to go in and negotiate as partners or like a bull in a china shop?
It's a negotiation, has to be give and take on both sides.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2018 9:47:58 GMT
Because it is costs we don't actually pay now. Are we comparing like with like in terms of size of businesses, cost of staff? We have some trade deals with other countries due to our existing membership of the EU, will these carryover or do we need to start again? Cost the EU more? In cash terms maybe, but not as a percentage. Besides, don't we want to go in and negotiate as partners or like a bull in a china shop? It's a negotiation, has to be give and take on both sides. I agree. Negotiations should be give and take. Unfortunately, PM May is just giving. Then 'Common Rulebook' being the prime example. |
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Post by baggins on Jul 16, 2018 10:44:27 GMT
Fair enough. Next question, how? WTO rules or negotiated trade deal? You go to the EU, these are our demands, what were willing to give & receive. Take it or leave it. We don't have to do a deal with the EU to leave, so we go either way. They have and will continue to say no deal, go. Then what? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2018 11:14:34 GMT
You go to the EU, these are our demands, what were willing to give & receive. Take it or leave it. We don't have to do a deal with the EU to leave, so we go either way. They have and will continue to say no deal, go. Then what? By Law, we have to leave the EU. It is now on the Statute Book. If No Deal is reached before the leave date, then we revert to WTO Rules. |
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Post by baggins on Jul 16, 2018 11:20:33 GMT
They have and will continue to say no deal, go. Then what? By Law, we have to leave the EU. It is now on the Statute Book. If No Deal is reached before the leave date, then we revert to WTO Rules. I know we're leaving and nothing will stop that, I meant what do we then do when the EU doesn't agree to any of our terms? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2018 11:43:15 GMT
By Law, we have to leave the EU. It is now on the Statute Book. If No Deal is reached before the leave date, then we revert to WTO Rules. I know we're leaving and nothing will stop that, I meant what do we then do when the EU doesn't agree to any of our terms? We revert to WTO rules, and then the real negotiations will begin. |
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Post by baggins on Jul 16, 2018 11:54:38 GMT
I know we're leaving and nothing will stop that, I meant what do we then do when the EU doesn't agree to any of our terms? We revert to WTO rules, and then the real negotiations will begin. Negotiations? We've got nothing to negotiate with. Finance? That'll be leaving London within months of the leave date. Finance makes up 80% of what we're about, when that goes, and it will, what are we left with? Nothing. It really worries me. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2018 11:54:58 GMT
Why should the UK pay any Premium for access when there are many other countries outside the EU who do not pay? Let's not forget that the EU export far more into the UK than the UK exports to the EU. What about countries like China, Japan, South Korea and the US? They do not have 'common standards' with the EU, but they have to produce goods that meet EU Standards if they wish to export to the EU. This is normal and I really don't know what the fuss is about. Right now, ANY British company that exports to say, the US, has to produce goods that meet the US standards. The same for China, for Japan etc etc etc. Producing goods that meet different National standards already goes on. Anyway, who is to say that British Standards will be lower than the EU standards? Remember the days when a "Made in the UK" mark was considered a mark of quality throughout the world? We already trade with the rest of the world under WTO rules. The reason for that is because we (as a sovereign Nation) cannot strike any trade deals. If we have to go to WTO rules to trade with the EU, then it will cost them far more than it costs us, so the emphasis is on them to agree a trade deal. At the moment the EU just say 'no' to ANY proposal the UK put forward. Also, this thread needs to be renamed to The Brexit Betrayal. You are right about standards, product standards, animal welfare standards etc. Which begs the question why the fuss from Brexiteers about wanting out of the rules that determine these standards? When it comes to doing deals with other countries the inconvenient truth for Brexiteers is this; Current Negotiations by the EU with; Japan: Free Trade Agreement Mercosur: (Argentina, Brazil, Paraguay, Uruguay), New Association Agreement Australia: Free Trade Agreement New Zealand: Free Trade Agreement Free Trade Agreements In place Albania, Macedonia, Turkey, Bosnia, Montenegro, Ukraine, Georgia, Serbia, Canada, Chile, Mexico, Central American States (Costa Rica, Guatemala and Panama), Colombia, Peru, Ecuador, Egypt, Jordan, Palestine Authority, Gulf Cooperation Council, Lebanon, Southern African Customs Union, Israel, Morocco, Tunisia, Hong Kong, Philippines, South Korea, Singapore. There are 15 other countries negotiating various styles of agreements, including India, Malaysia and Indonesia and Pakistan. Now call me old fashioned but all that adds up to awful lot of customers. Which leaves the Brexiteers clutching at straws with China and America. Although I do wonder how China handles Hong Kong with movement of goods, but that not withstanding doing business with China is a protectionist nightmare as anything of intellectual ownership or under patent they do not pretend that they don't steal. The States is not going to happen whilst Trump is President, or not in a way that is not hopelessly lopsided in favour of the USA. When we leave all the countries above will not be available to British Exporters under the current beneficial trade agreements. What then? We would have to start from scratch with the bargaining power of just our own economy. Well? |
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Post by stuart1974 on Jul 16, 2018 12:06:18 GMT
I know we're leaving and nothing will stop that, I meant what do we then do when the EU doesn't agree to any of our terms? We revert to WTO rules, and then the real negotiations will begin. Oh Nobby, I don't know whether to laugh or cry. |
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Post by baggins on Jul 16, 2018 12:15:54 GMT
We revert to WTO rules, and then the real negotiations will begin. Oh Nobby, I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Best laugh 'cause March next year, we're f**ked. |
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