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Post by aghast on Jul 14, 2018 22:34:26 GMT
No problem perhaps I am a bit touchy and it was just a joke. It does get frustrating that Remainers seem free to pass any comment, no matter how distasteful, and happy to paint a picture of anyone choosing to vote leave as thugs, racists, neanderthals, thicko's etc but probably the most offensive is those who have a go at pensioners right to vote. if Remain had won the referendum I'd have been disappointed but just got on with life, same as if Corbyn someone how got in charge I would have to respect the democratic vote and get on with things rather than throw my toys out of the pram and become a professional protester. Not sure whether you read any of the original Brexit thread back in 2016, I was possibly the only Remainer on there (Aghast joined in towards the end) and trying to have a sensible debate whilst being outnumbered and largely dismissed was hard going. I almost left the forum as a result. There has been a lot of mud slinging by both sides and I myself have had some unsavoury accusations levelled at me by a Leave voter. I did indeed join in, because I felt it was getting far too one-sided and didn't reflect the true opinions of many on here. But I try to avoid these things lately because it gets too heated. This isn't the right forum for a political debate and it stresses me out a bit, which a football forum should not do. I would say, in fairness, for all that you read about the young voters, my daughter aged 26 and her friends are totally anti-Brexit. My son, aged 24, and a fair number of his group, are totally in favour of leaving. I don't think either of them are happy with this half-arsed "we're leaving but we're not really leaving" compromise. Which I predicted at the time would happen. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Jul 14, 2018 22:41:37 GMT
Not sure whether you read any of the original Brexit thread back in 2016, I was possibly the only Remainer on there (Aghast joined in towards the end) and trying to have a sensible debate whilst being outnumbered and largely dismissed was hard going. I almost left the forum as a result. There has been a lot of mud slinging by both sides and I myself have had some unsavoury accusations levelled at me by a Leave voter. I did indeed join in, because I felt it was getting far too one-sided and didn't reflect the true opinions of many on here. But I try to avoid these things lately because it gets too heated. This isn't the right forum for a political debate and it stresses me out a bit, which a football forum should not do. I would say, in fairness, for all that you read about the young voters, my daughter aged 26 and her friends are totally anti-Brexit. My son, aged 24, and a fair number of his group, are totally in favour of leaving. I don't think either of them are happy with this half-arsed "we're leaving but we're not really leaving" compromise. Which I predicted at the time would happen. Pretty much sums it up for me too, I joined in for similar reasons and had to have a break. I sometimes wish we didn't have the political side to General Chat and I do get taken in by some of the more outlandish posts which makes me want to respond. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2018 5:50:27 GMT
did the majority vote? I can't actually remember now Turnout was 72% which by our standards is very high. I agree with Hugo though, that the result was too close for any discernable conclusions. For what it is worth, I would say that in a democracy the minority should be taken into consideration too, and the result was so close (52/48% or a difference of <1.3m) doesn't give an unqualified mandate. My reading is that the so called Hard Brexit terms cannot be justified. We voted to leave, and leave we must, but it does not give the likes of JR-M free reign, a conciliatory tone needs to be maintained. You may have a point although there was still a greater number wanting to leave than stay from those who felt genuinely interested enough to get off their arses. i think most Leave voters would prefer an amicably negotiated exit rather than a hard brexit but if Juncker, Barnier and Co make that impossible because they want to scare off others from leaving rather than get an agreement in the interest of both the UK and the remaining EU states that's their choice. If they had confidence that their Union was the greatest thing since sliced bread they wouldn't be so paranoid. I suspect when we are seen to be successful in the next few years the likes of France and Germany will see growing resentment from within as they will be the only two countries left making any significant contribution to the coffers. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2018 6:00:35 GMT
Not sure whether you read any of the original Brexit thread back in 2016, I was possibly the only Remainer on there (Aghast joined in towards the end) and trying to have a sensible debate whilst being outnumbered and largely dismissed was hard going. I almost left the forum as a result. There has been a lot of mud slinging by both sides and I myself have had some unsavoury accusations levelled at me by a Leave voter. I did indeed join in, because I felt it was getting far too one-sided and didn't reflect the true opinions of many on here. But I try to avoid these things lately because it gets too heated. This isn't the right forum for a political debate and it stresses me out a bit, which a football forum should not do. I would say, in fairness, for all that you read about the young voters, my daughter aged 26 and her friends are totally anti-Brexit. My son, aged 24, and a fair number of his group, are totally in favour of leaving. I don't think either of them are happy with this half-arsed "we're leaving but we're not really leaving" compromise. Which I predicted at the time would happen. I totally understand that and kind of wish I'd not bothered commenting. It seems that Leave voters have had to go into hiding as the Remain lobby have been very aggressive in recent months and most Leavers who raise their heads above the parapet get abused and called thick, racist, neanderthals etc rather than having their opinion respected. |
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Jul 15, 2018 6:23:33 GMT
I did indeed join in, because I felt it was getting far too one-sided and didn't reflect the true opinions of many on here. But I try to avoid these things lately because it gets too heated. This isn't the right forum for a political debate and it stresses me out a bit, which a football forum should not do. I would say, in fairness, for all that you read about the young voters, my daughter aged 26 and her friends are totally anti-Brexit. My son, aged 24, and a fair number of his group, are totally in favour of leaving. I don't think either of them are happy with this half-arsed "we're leaving but we're not really leaving" compromise. Which I predicted at the time would happen. I totally understand that and kind of wish I'd not bothered commenting. It seems that Leave voters have had to go into hiding as the Remain lobby have been very aggressive in recent months and most Leavers who raise their heads above the parapet get abused and called thick, racist, neanderthals etc rather than having their opinion respected. Yeah and most remainers get called pathetic snowflakes who are protesting a fair and democratic result. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Jul 15, 2018 6:27:23 GMT
I did indeed join in, because I felt it was getting far too one-sided and didn't reflect the true opinions of many on here. But I try to avoid these things lately because it gets too heated. This isn't the right forum for a political debate and it stresses me out a bit, which a football forum should not do. I would say, in fairness, for all that you read about the young voters, my daughter aged 26 and her friends are totally anti-Brexit. My son, aged 24, and a fair number of his group, are totally in favour of leaving. I don't think either of them are happy with this half-arsed "we're leaving but we're not really leaving" compromise. Which I predicted at the time would happen. I totally understand that and kind of wish I'd not bothered commenting. It seems that Leave voters have had to go into hiding as the Remain lobby have been very aggressive in recent months and most Leavers who raise their heads above the parapet get abused and called thick, racist, neanderthals etc rather than having their opinion respected. Reading the newspapers, that is not the impression I get. Even during the campaign, many academics or others expressing reasons to stay were classed as "in the pay of Brussels" and dirt dug up. Just look at how the Mail turned on the House of Lords and the Tory Remainer rebels. Pragmatic Leave and pragmatic Remainers have a lot in common, it is the extreme of both that risk division. We all want a good trading deal and a prosperous nation. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Jul 15, 2018 6:31:30 GMT
Turnout was 72% which by our standards is very high. I agree with Hugo though, that the result was too close for any discernable conclusions. For what it is worth, I would say that in a democracy the minority should be taken into consideration too, and the result was so close (52/48% or a difference of <1.3m) doesn't give an unqualified mandate. My reading is that the so called Hard Brexit terms cannot be justified. We voted to leave, and leave we must, but it does not give the likes of JR-M free reign, a conciliatory tone needs to be maintained. You may have a point although there was still a greater number wanting to leave than stay from those who felt genuinely interested enough to get off their arses. i think most Leave voters would prefer an amicably negotiated exit rather than a hard brexit but if Juncker, Barnier and Co make that impossible because they want to scare off others from leaving rather than get an agreement in the interest of both the UK and the remaining EU states that's their choice. If they had confidence that their Union was the greatest thing since sliced bread they wouldn't be so paranoid. I suspect when we are seen to be successful in the next few years the likes of France and Germany will see growing resentment from within as they will be the only two countries left making any significant contribution to the coffers. I went to bed listening to Nigel Farage thinking he lost but that the fight still goes on. I woke to hear him winning and saying that "This is not the best of three." I'm not sure the EU s as worried now as they were immediately afterwards and cooler heads will now prevail. Hopefully !!! |
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Post by e4bandrobinstubbs on Jul 15, 2018 7:44:09 GMT
Surely Cameron is the one to blame for this mess. He came back from Brussels with a sh*t deal, then threw a wobbly when he was criticised for it. His impetuous response was to call the referendum.
Having said that, the EU is in a right mess. The UK isn't the only country kicking up against Brussels - Italy, Poland, Austria, Czech etc. France is a mess socially and economicaly and now Germany is taking a close look at the 'books'.
Politically here we are in a really bad state. We used to be so good at politics (sure, there were problems now & again) but I'm just wondering whether we've become weak and confused as a result of recent years' membership of the EU. No-one can call the EU politicians strong, decisive & accountable.
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Post by stuart1974 on Jul 15, 2018 8:30:10 GMT
Surely Cameron is the one to blame for this mess. He came back from Brussels with a sh*t deal, then threw a wobbly when he was criticised for it. His impetuous response was to call the referendum. Having said that, the EU is in a right mess. The UK isn't the only country kicking up against Brussels - Italy, Poland, Austria, Czech etc. France is a mess socially and economicaly and now Germany is taking a close look at the 'books'. Politically here we are in a really bad state. We used to be so good at politics (sure, there were problems now & again) but I'm just wondering whether we've become weak and confused as a result of recent years' membership of the EU. No-one can call the EU politicians strong, decisive & accountable. Not sure we have become politically confused because of the EU, it predates membership. Cameron tried to silence the UKIP wing with the nuclear option of actually threatening to leave with the view we would vote in and it backfired. I guess he also hoped to have another coalition in 2015 and have to conveniently drop it to get the LibDems on board like in 2010. Even Thatcher and Blair, for all their perceived strength, had problems. Callaghan, Heath, Eden and Major were no different, for example. You could go back further if needs be. Backbenchers smelling blood and undermining the leadership has been a function of parliamentary democracy for centuries. Plus ca change, and all that. Personally I think Labour and the Conservative Party are too broad and have their own internal coalitions that stagnate good policy, each should really be two separate parties. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2018 10:00:25 GMT
I think it is futile now to point fingers at either side of this debate. I think we need to reboot and start again. May has put something on the table for discussion, discuss we should. I personally think not bringing 80% of our economy into the discussion (as she did not in the paper) is ludicrous.
I would like to see a clearly articulated debate which lays out the benefits of remaining in the EU Single Market and Customs Union, the benefits inherent in Mays White Paper, and the benefits of No Deal.
That would enable an informed debate and perhaps a vote for preference.
That would cover the economics
On the political front I want to know exactly what constraints, what adverse affects have we, the people of the UK, suffered as a result of our acceptance of the ECJ and adherence to rights laws.
I know the Alt Right as headed up by Reese-Mogg want unfettered free markets, the result of which would be a social disaster for the general population. I cannot believe that the working population want to have their employment rights curtailed for example, nor do they really understand what would happen if these people come to power and enact the political and economic philosophy of Friedrich Hayek, whose musings were the bible for Thatcher and Reagan.
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Post by jaggas on Jul 15, 2018 12:37:43 GMT
The point is I do not think anyone even the most ardent leavers want to cut all ties with the EU.Trade is fine but why all the rules regulations and the integration of every aspect of our lives being forced upon us from countries we have very little in common with? It may sound trivial but I cannot buy a light bulb strong enough to light a room because the EU says so.I am all for free trade with the EU and free movement of skilled workers who don't claim benefits for children not even living in our country.It is not unreasonable to ask be able to deal freely with EU countries but it leaves a bitter taste on your mouth when you are forced to subsidise 25 nations who do not contribute.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2018 13:07:43 GMT
The point is I do not think anyone even the most ardent leavers want to cut all ties with the EU.Trade is fine but why all the rules regulations and the integration of every aspect of our lives being forced upon us from countries we have very little in common with? It may sound trivial but I cannot buy a light bulb strong enough to light a room because the EU says so.I am all for free trade with the EU and free movement of skilled workers who don't claim benefits for children not even living in our country.It is not unreasonable to ask be able to deal freely with EU countries but it leaves a bitter taste on your mouth when you are forced to subsidise 25 nations who do not contribute. So may be articulate your vision that would equate to a trading treaty? |
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Post by South Stand Ultra on Jul 15, 2018 17:31:59 GMT
No problem perhaps I am a bit touchy and it was just a joke. It does get frustrating that Remainers seem free to pass any comment, no matter how distasteful, and happy to paint a picture of anyone choosing to vote leave as thugs, racists, neanderthals, thicko's etc but probably the most offensive is those who have a go at pensioners right to vote. if Remain had won the referendum I'd have been disappointed but just got on with life, same as if Corbyn someone how got in charge I would have to respect the democratic vote and get on with things rather than throw my toys out of the pram and become a professional protester. I think most of us remainers have done just that to be honest, just accepted and got on with it. It's not our fault that this Banned word government couldn't organise a fingering. You have to respect the right to protest whatever the cause, you might think it's silly but that's the rich tapestry of life and opinion. I hate Trump for example and what he represents but to protest a visit will fuel the fire that feeds his support. Better to use the opportunity to try and influence him subtly. As for brexit like I said, we are going to ha e to work very hard to turn such a poor situation in to an opportunity else I suspect we will all suffer, leavers and remainers alike. Nobby will probably be ok in Germany. "I think most of us remainers have done just that to be honest, just accepted and got on with it" Seriously? Is this an attempt at a joke? |
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Post by Officer Barbrady on Jul 15, 2018 17:57:09 GMT
I think most of us remainers have done just that to be honest, just accepted and got on with it. It's not our fault that this Banned word government couldn't organise a fingering. You have to respect the right to protest whatever the cause, you might think it's silly but that's the rich tapestry of life and opinion. I hate Trump for example and what he represents but to protest a visit will fuel the fire that feeds his support. Better to use the opportunity to try and influence him subtly. As for brexit like I said, we are going to ha e to work very hard to turn such a poor situation in to an opportunity else I suspect we will all suffer, leavers and remainers alike. Nobby will probably be ok in Germany. "I think most of us remainers have done just that to be honest, just accepted and got on with it" Seriously? Is this an attempt at a joke? Not very funny is it. I should think most have done that, remain or leave. You only hear from the disgruntled extremes. You'll hear more from remain as time ebbs away and the picture unfolds in to the twisted fucknugget it truly is I'm sure. That is to be expected. Still, you clearly know best, what do you think? |
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Jul 15, 2018 18:28:50 GMT
I think most of us remainers have done just that to be honest, just accepted and got on with it. It's not our fault that this Banned word government couldn't organise a fingering. You have to respect the right to protest whatever the cause, you might think it's silly but that's the rich tapestry of life and opinion. I hate Trump for example and what he represents but to protest a visit will fuel the fire that feeds his support. Better to use the opportunity to try and influence him subtly. As for brexit like I said, we are going to ha e to work very hard to turn such a poor situation in to an opportunity else I suspect we will all suffer, leavers and remainers alike. Nobby will probably be ok in Germany. "I think most of us remainers have done just that to be honest, just accepted and got on with it" Seriously? Is this an attempt at a joke? It's the truth. Just as not all leavers are knuckle dragging racists, not all remainers are protesting cry babies. Get a sense of reality and not what you are told to believe in the news. |
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Post by devonblue on Jul 15, 2018 19:57:02 GMT
I am sure people who voted leave did not expect to lose their jobs - just ask the workers at Airbus
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Post by Officer Barbrady on Jul 15, 2018 21:12:49 GMT
I am sure people who voted leave did not expect to lose their jobs - just ask the workers at Airbus I'm sure you are right and I think that's my greatest regret in the whole saga. Not enough was done for your average Joe who desperately wants immigration to stop quoting job security or whatever (we could argue that one forever I'm sure), with no knowledge or understanding about what that would actually mean for them when their bosses start looking to move to Dublin. I think Cornyn let the workers down big time on that one. It seems that we wanted to leave Europe but no-one was considering the real cost of that. I wonder if that is why May has pitched her soft as sh** diarrhoea Brexit as it has all become clearer. It's a good argument for a final vote on terms. If you decide to buy a car advertised as good working order and make an offer and the bloke rings you up and tells you it doesn't work, would you still buy it? My greatest fear in all of this is that the milk turns out to be sour and we still lap it up because we are too stupid and proud to say we have changed our minds. I appreciate the above may be provocative to some which is fine, it's an emotive post and subject. But please if you could refrain from one line insults like 'is this a joke' that would be great,it allows us to continue to talk about it and listen to all the different points of view with respect. I myself have been guilty of this in the past but I've learned my lesson and frankly we are all in it together now. Nor aimed at you devonblue but the South ultra chap before. |
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Post by South Stand Ultra on Jul 16, 2018 6:11:06 GMT
"I think most of us remainers have done just that to be honest, just accepted and got on with it" Seriously? Is this an attempt at a joke? It's the truth. Just as not all leavers are knuckle dragging racists, not all remainers are protesting cry babies. Get a sense of reality and not what you are told to believe in the news. Justine Greening has today called for a second referendum, has she just accepted it and got on with it? |
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Post by Officer Barbrady on Jul 16, 2018 7:00:28 GMT
It's the truth. Just as not all leavers are knuckle dragging racists, not all remainers are protesting cry babies. Get a sense of reality and not what you are told to believe in the news. Justine Greening has today called for a second referendum, has she just accepted it and got on with it? If you are going to try and prove that most people haven't just got on with it by using individual examples I should think we will be here for some time. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Jul 16, 2018 7:29:46 GMT
It's the truth. Just as not all leavers are knuckle dragging racists, not all remainers are protesting cry babies. Get a sense of reality and not what you are told to believe in the news. Justine Greening has today called for a second referendum, has she just accepted it and got on with it? To be fair she hasn't got a history of this so using an exception to prove the rule isn't really confirming your post. Also it is not a straight forward rerun, but including the "deal" as an additional option with preference votes used. If you were PM, what would you do? What would you like to happen now? |
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