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Post by baggins on Jul 14, 2018 12:59:15 GMT
You're blaming the remainers for the water poor and quite frankly shameful performance of the Govt for not getting a better deal on the Brexit? There was never, ever, going to be a good deal for us leaving. The EU won't and don't have to give us any deal whatsoever and who can blame them? Our own destiny, our future, is bleak. I think what hes saying is that everyone should have been forced to change their minds plus/minus deserters should have been shot. Perhaps this is what you get when you make such a massive decision on such a narrow margin in a two horse race. It was probably inevitable. It's not as is the leavers enamoured themselves in their victory by warmly convincing remainers to their way of thinking. More like saying things like you lost snowflake get over it. Perhaps that also says something about the reasons many voted leave... Either way what a colossal f**k up. We are going to have to be very smart to work this situation to an opportunity from here I reckon. Bit optimistic to assume we've got smart in our locker. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2018 14:37:53 GMT
You're blaming the remainers for the water poor and quite frankly shameful performance of the Govt for not getting a better deal on the Brexit? There was never, ever, going to be a good deal for us leaving. The EU won't and don't have to give us any deal whatsoever and who can blame them? Our own destiny, our future, is bleak. I think what hes saying is that everyone should have been forced to change their minds plus/minus deserters should have been shot. Perhaps this is what you get when you make such a massive decision on such a narrow margin in a two horse race. It was probably inevitable. It's not as is the leavers enamoured themselves in their victory by warmly convincing remainers to their way of thinking. More like saying things like you lost snowflake get over it. Perhaps that also says something about the reasons many voted leave... Either way what a colossal f**k up. We are going to have to be very smart to work this situation to an opportunity from here I reckon. What bollocks - I don't think anyone should be forced to change their mind and I certainly don't advocate violence which you've brought into the discussion. I just think people should respect democracy but the vocal liberal minority of this country only like democracy and freedom of speech when it's in line with their own beliefs. I think a united country would be more likely to get a better deal than a disunited country with the losing minority constantly making such noise. |
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Post by Officer Barbrady on Jul 14, 2018 14:56:01 GMT
I think what hes saying is that everyone should have been forced to change their minds plus/minus deserters should have been shot. Perhaps this is what you get when you make such a massive decision on such a narrow margin in a two horse race. It was probably inevitable. It's not as is the leavers enamoured themselves in their victory by warmly convincing remainers to their way of thinking. More like saying things like you lost snowflake get over it. Perhaps that also says something about the reasons many voted leave... Either way what a colossal f**k up. We are going to have to be very smart to work this situation to an opportunity from here I reckon. What bollocks - I don't think anyone should be forced to change their mind and I certainly don't advocate violence which you've brought into the discussion. I just think people should respect democracy but the vocal liberal minority of this country only like democracy and freedom of speech when it's in line with their own beliefs. I think a united country would be more likely to get a better deal than a disunited country with the losing minority constantly making such noise. Oh it was only a joke settle down |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2018 15:21:48 GMT
What bollocks - I don't think anyone should be forced to change their mind and I certainly don't advocate violence which you've brought into the discussion. I just think people should respect democracy but the vocal liberal minority of this country only like democracy and freedom of speech when it's in line with their own beliefs. I think a united country would be more likely to get a better deal than a disunited country with the losing minority constantly making such noise. Oh it was only a joke settle down No problem perhaps I am a bit touchy and it was just a joke. It does get frustrating that Remainers seem free to pass any comment, no matter how distasteful, and happy to paint a picture of anyone choosing to vote leave as thugs, racists, neanderthals, thicko's etc but probably the most offensive is those who have a go at pensioners right to vote. if Remain had won the referendum I'd have been disappointed but just got on with life, same as if Corbyn someone how got in charge I would have to respect the democratic vote and get on with things rather than throw my toys out of the pram and become a professional protester. |
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Jul 14, 2018 15:29:43 GMT
I think the nail has been hit on the head though.
The problem is that in a 2 horse race, there really were no clear winners.
Cameron really f**ked this country big time.
There should have been a vote that could only be enacted if a certain majority threshold was reached either way.
The split was as good as 50/50 and that a really weak way to enter into any situation. the
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Post by jaggas on Jul 14, 2018 15:37:20 GMT
If the vocal minority and serial protestors of this country had respected the majority vote and put on a united front we would have been better placed to get a good deal. The EU has used our lack of unity and bitter in fighting against us. Regardless of the overall outcome any short term pain will definitely be worth it in the long term - can't wait to get away from those power mad dictators and beurocrats and take control of our own destiny again. You're blaming the remainers for the water poor and quite frankly shameful performance of the Govt for not getting a better deal on the Brexit? There was never, ever, going to be a good deal for us leaving. The EU won't and don't have to give us any deal whatsoever and who can blame them? Our own destiny, our future, is bleak. The problem since the referendum was the Tories appointing a remainer as PM the same PM went into round one of negotiations 9 months too late aiming very low.Barnier and co were given 9 months to get their ducks in a row and their only demand from the start was money and lots of it.Disgraceful from the EU when you take into account we have subsidised the whole rotten corrupt lot since the day we were conned and lied to into joining.Our starting point should have been aiming high from the first meeting as the UK held all the aces via the majority of the people wanting out.Should have said from the start these are our terms we want good relations and trade but we are no longer paying for it all and accepting regulations that harm small businesses.If they were not happy then fine bye bye WTO rules it is and the EU lose tens of billions. |
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Post by Officer Barbrady on Jul 14, 2018 15:58:40 GMT
Oh it was only a joke settle down No problem perhaps I am a bit touchy and it was just a joke. It does get frustrating that Remainers seem free to pass any comment, no matter how distasteful, and happy to paint a picture of anyone choosing to vote leave as thugs, racists, neanderthals, thicko's etc but probably the most offensive is those who have a go at pensioners right to vote. if Remain had won the referendum I'd have been disappointed but just got on with life, same as if Corbyn someone how got in charge I would have to respect the democratic vote and get on with things rather than throw my toys out of the pram and become a professional protester. I think most of us remainers have done just that to be honest, just accepted and got on with it. It's not our fault that this Banned word government couldn't organise a fingering. You have to respect the right to protest whatever the cause, you might think it's silly but that's the rich tapestry of life and opinion. I hate Trump for example and what he represents but to protest a visit will fuel the fire that feeds his support. Better to use the opportunity to try and influence him subtly. As for brexit like I said, we are going to ha e to work very hard to turn such a poor situation in to an opportunity else I suspect we will all suffer, leavers and remainers alike. Nobby will probably be ok in Germany. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2018 16:17:30 GMT
No problem perhaps I am a bit touchy and it was just a joke. It does get frustrating that Remainers seem free to pass any comment, no matter how distasteful, and happy to paint a picture of anyone choosing to vote leave as thugs, racists, neanderthals, thicko's etc but probably the most offensive is those who have a go at pensioners right to vote. if Remain had won the referendum I'd have been disappointed but just got on with life, same as if Corbyn someone how got in charge I would have to respect the democratic vote and get on with things rather than throw my toys out of the pram and become a professional protester. I think most of us remainers have done just that to be honest, just accepted and got on with it. It's not our fault that this Banned word government couldn't organise a fingering. You have to respect the right to protest whatever the cause, you might think it's silly but that's the rich tapestry of life and opinion. I hate Trump for example and what he represents but to protest a visit will fuel the fire that feeds his support. Better to use the opportunity to try and influence him subtly. As for brexit like I said, we are going to ha e to work very hard to turn such a poor situation in to an opportunity else I suspect we will all suffer, leavers and remainers alike. Nobby will probably be ok in Germany. Nobby and other German residents may be in the same position before too long if anti EU sentiment rises across Europe, especially if the UK doesn't fair as badly as all the doom mongers predict. If the EU had largely remained a trading body rather than gradually imposing itself on every aspect of member states lives we would never have had the problem. Perhaps if someone had seen their power mad intent a bit earlier we could have left sooner without it being so difficult? |
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Post by devonblue on Jul 14, 2018 16:30:05 GMT
An advisory referendum based on lies and swung with illegal financing. We need a peoples vote as it is NOT the will of the people.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2018 17:12:57 GMT
An advisory referendum based on lies and swung with illegal financing. We need a peoples vote as it is NOT the will of the people. A different result would have been the 'will of the people' and accepted presumably? Which people would be allowed to vote in your people's vote? Personally I don't think any propaganda, truthful or otherwise from either side, will have made any difference to people's votes - most will have known exactly which way they were voting the second the referendum was announced. |
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Post by Officer Barbrady on Jul 14, 2018 18:31:24 GMT
I think most of us remainers have done just that to be honest, just accepted and got on with it. It's not our fault that this Banned word government couldn't organise a fingering. You have to respect the right to protest whatever the cause, you might think it's silly but that's the rich tapestry of life and opinion. I hate Trump for example and what he represents but to protest a visit will fuel the fire that feeds his support. Better to use the opportunity to try and influence him subtly. As for brexit like I said, we are going to ha e to work very hard to turn such a poor situation in to an opportunity else I suspect we will all suffer, leavers and remainers alike. Nobby will probably be ok in Germany. Nobby and other German residents may be in the same position before too long if anti EU sentiment rises across Europe, especially if the UK doesn't fair as badly as all the doom mongers predict. If the EU had largely remained a trading body rather than gradually imposing itself on every aspect of member states lives we would never have had the problem. Perhaps if someone had seen their power mad intent a bit earlier we could have left sooner without it being so difficult? possibly, but would there have been the appetite? I guess there's something to be said for the phrase my old dad used to say - if you get in to bed with the devil, he's going to bugger you forever. Oh and here's the kicker - better to be rich and buggered than poor and buggered |
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Jul 14, 2018 20:07:41 GMT
You're blaming the remainers for the water poor and quite frankly shameful performance of the Govt for not getting a better deal on the Brexit? There was never, ever, going to be a good deal for us leaving. The EU won't and don't have to give us any deal whatsoever and who can blame them? Our own destiny, our future, is bleak. The problem since the referendum was the Tories appointing a remainer as PM the same PM went into round one of negotiations 9 months too late aiming very low.Barnier and co were given 9 months to get their ducks in a row and their only demand from the start was money and lots of it.Disgraceful from the EU when you take into account we have subsidised the whole rotten corrupt lot since the day we were conned and lied to into joining.Our starting point should have been aiming high from the first meeting as the UK held all the aces via the majority of the people wanting out.Should have said from the start these are our terms we want good relations and trade but we are no longer paying for it all and accepting regulations that harm small businesses.If they were not happy then fine bye bye WTO rules it is and the EU lose tens of billions. The majority didn't want out. It was really pretty much evenly split. |
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Post by Officer Barbrady on Jul 14, 2018 20:10:10 GMT
The problem since the referendum was the Tories appointing a remainer as PM the same PM went into round one of negotiations 9 months too late aiming very low.Barnier and co were given 9 months to get their ducks in a row and their only demand from the start was money and lots of it.Disgraceful from the EU when you take into account we have subsidised the whole rotten corrupt lot since the day we were conned and lied to into joining.Our starting point should have been aiming high from the first meeting as the UK held all the aces via the majority of the people wanting out.Should have said from the start these are our terms we want good relations and trade but we are no longer paying for it all and accepting regulations that harm small businesses.If they were not happy then fine bye bye WTO rules it is and the EU lose tens of billions. The majority didn't want out. It was really pretty much evenly split. did the majority vote? I can't actually remember now |
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Jul 14, 2018 20:32:36 GMT
The majority didn't want out. It was really pretty much evenly split. did the majority vote? I can't actually remember now You can only count those who did. I believe voting should be mandatory but there should be a "None of the above" box on every ballot that should be counted. |
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Post by Officer Barbrady on Jul 14, 2018 21:08:12 GMT
did the majority vote? I can't actually remember now You can only count those who did. I believe voting should be mandatory but there should be a "None of the above" box on every ballot that should be counted. yes of course but I wonder if actually more people in this country didn't vote for it than did |
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Post by stuart1974 on Jul 14, 2018 21:22:16 GMT
Oh it was only a joke settle down No problem perhaps I am a bit touchy and it was just a joke. It does get frustrating that Remainers seem free to pass any comment, no matter how distasteful, and happy to paint a picture of anyone choosing to vote leave as thugs, racists, neanderthals, thicko's etc but probably the most offensive is those who have a go at pensioners right to vote. if Remain had won the referendum I'd have been disappointed but just got on with life, same as if Corbyn someone how got in charge I would have to respect the democratic vote and get on with things rather than throw my toys out of the pram and become a professional protester. Not sure whether you read any of the original Brexit thread back in 2016, I was possibly the only Remainer on there (Aghast joined in towards the end) and trying to have a sensible debate whilst being outnumbered and largely dismissed was hard going. I almost left the forum as a result. There has been a lot of mud slinging by both sides and I myself have had some unsavoury accusations levelled at me by a Leave voter. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Jul 14, 2018 21:28:00 GMT
An advisory referendum based on lies and swung with illegal financing. We need a peoples vote as it is NOT the will of the people. A different result would have been the 'will of the people' and accepted presumably? Which people would be allowed to vote in your people's vote? Personally I don't think any propaganda, truthful or otherwise from either side, will have made any difference to people's votes - most will have known exactly which way they were voting the second the referendum was announced. Lord Ashcroft has done quite a bit of polling on the Brexit referendum, around 10% decided on the day itself and around 20% within the last week. When looking at the breakdown, by far the biggest observation was how few 18-24 year olds didn't vote (nearly 2/3rds) Which would have made quite a difference to the result. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Jul 14, 2018 21:37:53 GMT
The majority didn't want out. It was really pretty much evenly split. did the majority vote? I can't actually remember now Turnout was 72% which by our standards is very high. I agree with Hugo though, that the result was too close for any discernable conclusions. For what it is worth, I would say that in a democracy the minority should be taken into consideration too, and the result was so close (52/48% or a difference of <1.3m) doesn't give an unqualified mandate. My reading is that the so called Hard Brexit terms cannot be justified. We voted to leave, and leave we must, but it does not give the likes of JR-M free reign, a conciliatory tone needs to be maintained. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Jul 14, 2018 21:47:10 GMT
did the majority vote? I can't actually remember now You can only count those who did. I believe voting should be mandatory but there should be a "None of the above" box on every ballot that should be counted. It seems to have been the young who didn't get out. Not sure about compulsory voting but I do agree that there should be a none of the above option. It would make the politicians work harder for the vote and keep them on their toes. Brexit breakdown of voting: 18-24: 36% 25-34: 58% 35-44: 72% 45-54: 75% 55-64: 81% 65+: 83% |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2018 22:22:34 GMT
Aiming directly at those on this thread who are advocating leave, and cold take it or leave it style proposition to our partners in the current EU.
Please formulate, in some kind of detail, exactly how the UK will be better off economically and politically?
Please, just one coherent proposition or argument that adds up.
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