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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2018 9:22:08 GMT
At the risk of seeming idealistic, we get to decide every 4-5 years when we send our local MP to Westminster. Perhaps rather than rubber stamp any EU wide decisions, they should be have been delegated to a Select Committee giving Parlimentary oversight and approval. Being a select committee they would have the backing of Parliament without taking up time or risk becoming a political football. That was where a very basic mistake was made. The Brexit Negotiating Team should have been Cross-Party. Both Labour and Tory have turned Brexit into a political argument between themselves, when they should both have been busy working together to implementing the Democratic decision made by the people. Meanwhile, PM May and her advisers have turned Brexit into a joke, while the Labour alternative position (if you can really work out what it is) is pure fantasy. Which is why politicians of all sides are so despised and untrusted. Rather than getting on with the task in hand and doing what is best for the country they get in to petty, political arguments. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2018 9:22:29 GMT
and the EU have been very clear that there would be no 'cherry picking' by the UK. It had to be an In or Out vote.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2018 9:30:06 GMT
Even Boris Johnson quoted the increase in trade with South Korea a couple of month's ago. Not realising, because he is a half wit, that the increase started after the free trade agreement was signed. As to your point that these FTA's do not benefit all members of the EU equally, of course not, as you say all the economies are slightly different. However, as the 2nd or 3rd largest economy in the current EU, shame on us if we don't take advantage. Treaties open the door, it's for us to walk through. As for the rest you state those are the usual rants. Funnily enough I was in Japan last March, their population is declining and the imbalance between working age and retired is going to become critical within 2 decades, they are forecasting a 20% decline in population. At which point their current level of economic output will be unsustainable. They actually need immigration I'll take it you are correct about Japans shrinking workforce but one thing is for sure and they have stated numerous times is they will not open their country to the third world and import their backward religion and all the problems that come with it.They have to be admired for that sensible policy.Germany havebdhowed that policy is wrong as their welfare bill has grown enormously. Germany is fecked, and it's only now that Merkel realizes it. The vast majority (something like 98%) of the 2 million migrants and Asylum Seekers that have arrived in Germany since 2015 will never find a job here. They lack the language skills, the work ethic and the educational standards to find work. There are still 10,000 arriving every month. Each one costs 1,000 Euros per month (minimum) to take care of. That is 10 MILLION per month (minimum) being added to the Welfare Budget, every month.....which doesn't include the cost of the other two million already mention. Government estimates put the total cost at around 20 Billion so far, and for that Germany gets very few workers, yet that is the main reason for allowing migrants in. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Jul 18, 2018 10:17:37 GMT
At the risk of seeming idealistic, we get to decide every 4-5 years when we send our local MP to Westminster. Perhaps rather than rubber stamp any EU wide decisions, they should be have been delegated to a Select Committee giving Parlimentary oversight and approval. Being a select committee they would have the backing of Parliament without taking up time or risk becoming a political football. That was where a very basic mistake was made. The Brexit Negotiating Team should have been Cross-Party. Both Labour and Tory have turned Brexit into a political argument between themselves, when they should both have been busy working together to implementing the Democratic decision made by the people. Meanwhile, PM May and her advisers have turned Brexit into a joke, while the Labour alternative position (if you can really work out what it is) is pure fantasy. That is one thing we can agree on, I thought at the time that Parliament should have set up a cross party team (probably chaired by a pragmatic Brexiteer) with delegated powers which would then allow the Executive and Legislative to have an arms length separation allowing them to get on with the day to day running of the country. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Jul 18, 2018 10:22:30 GMT
I think that's position a lot of remainers have some sympathy with too. I think our autonomy was erroded to the point of critical failure. It's a shame we could not have remained in the EU but have regained some of our independence. The 100% IN or 100% OUT option was a stupid position to put to the vote. Wasn't the 100% in/ 100% out the only option to give the electorate? I imagine the EU would have laughed at a request to partially withdraw, especially when we want to keep the few best bits and rid ourselves of all the crap. Opting out was the only way to trigger discussion on any alternative deals on the various issues. If the EU remain deliberately obstructive to try and teach us a lesson and protect their future existence there isn't much we can do. If we end up with the so called 'hard brexit' it's more the EU's fault than ours and will be harmful to both sides, at least in the short term. Out of interest, how much of the good bits would you give up to be free of the bad bits or how much of the bad bits would you accept to keep the good bits? Genuine question. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2018 10:38:24 GMT
The EU-Japan Trade Deal: "The deal does allow for some regulatory alignment in so much that, for example, car safety and environmental standards will be aligned, Japan will also adopt international labelling standards for textiles and medical products. Something rational brexiteers can live with so long as the regulatory alignment is not restrictive of non-export goods. What the agreement does not require is for Japan to join the customs union or the single market. It does not require the ECJ’s ultimate jurisdiction, instead a mediation panel and the Dispute Settlement Body of the WTO will be the arbitration method. This is normal for free trade agreements. Remainers can’t explain why the UK can’t have a similar deal with the EU. Anyone might think that the EU is just trying to frustrate Brexit…" Order Order
It is also worthwhile noting that the trade agreement does not allow free movement of people into Japan. Neither does Japan have to pay anything. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2018 10:38:29 GMT
Wasn't the 100% in/ 100% out the only option to give the electorate? I imagine the EU would have laughed at a request to partially withdraw, especially when we want to keep the few best bits and rid ourselves of all the crap. Opting out was the only way to trigger discussion on any alternative deals on the various issues. If the EU remain deliberately obstructive to try and teach us a lesson and protect their future existence there isn't much we can do. If we end up with the so called 'hard brexit' it's more the EU's fault than ours and will be harmful to both sides, at least in the short term. Out of interest, how much of the good bits would you give up to be free of the bad bits or how much of the bad bits would you accept to keep the good bits? Genuine question. I don't claim to know the in depth technicalities of all the various laws, treaties and agreements. The main issues for me are to take back the right to make and administer our own rules on things like crime and immigration. The existing trade benefits are fine but the continued intrusion into our everyday lives is just becoming too much and is not a price worth paying for the trade arrangements. if the EU don't want to meet amicably on trade without imposing other factors and a huge divorce settlement then we may end up with no trade deal. Far from ideal but we will, in the long term, come through it and I believe be stronger too. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2018 10:41:06 GMT
I'll take it you are correct about Japans shrinking workforce but one thing is for sure and they have stated numerous times is they will not open their country to the third world and import their backward religion and all the problems that come with it.They have to be admired for that sensible policy.Germany havebdhowed that policy is wrong as their welfare bill has grown enormously. Germany is fecked, and it's only now that Merkel realizes it. The vast majority (something like 98%) of the 2 million migrants and Asylum Seekers that have arrived in Germany since 2015 will never find a job here. They lack the language skills, the work ethic and the educational standards to find work. There are still 10,000 arriving every month. Each one costs 1,000 Euros per month (minimum) to take care of. That is 10 MILLION per month (minimum) being added to the Welfare Budget, every month.....which doesn't include the cost of the other two million already mention. Government estimates put the total cost at around 20 Billion so far, and for that Germany gets very few workers, yet that is the main reason for allowing migrants in. What will happen with these 2 million. Will they be granted citizenship and then be free to roam the other EU states? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2018 10:42:20 GMT
Germany is fecked, and it's only now that Merkel realizes it. The vast majority (something like 98%) of the 2 million migrants and Asylum Seekers that have arrived in Germany since 2015 will never find a job here. They lack the language skills, the work ethic and the educational standards to find work. There are still 10,000 arriving every month. Each one costs 1,000 Euros per month (minimum) to take care of. That is 10 MILLION per month (minimum) being added to the Welfare Budget, every month.....which doesn't include the cost of the other two million already mention. Government estimates put the total cost at around 20 Billion so far, and for that Germany gets very few workers, yet that is the main reason for allowing migrants in. What will happen with these 2 million. Will they be granted citizenship and then be free to roam the other EU states? Eventually, yes. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2018 11:09:07 GMT
It could be an interesting afternoon. After PMQ's, Boris Johnson is to give his resignation speech!
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Post by stuart1974 on Jul 18, 2018 11:13:35 GMT
It could be an interesting afternoon. After PMQ's, Boris Johnson is to give his resignation speech! Could be. Current rumour is that he has toned it down to nothing too serious, but with Boris who knows. I still remember Geoffrey Howe's, that too was about Europe. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2018 11:16:48 GMT
What will happen with these 2 million. Will they be granted citizenship and then be free to roam the other EU states? Eventually, yes. Cosmic. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Jul 18, 2018 11:56:23 GMT
Out of interest, how much of the good bits would you give up to be free of the bad bits or how much of the bad bits would you accept to keep the good bits? Genuine question. I don't claim to know the in depth technicalities of all the various laws, treaties and agreements. The main issues for me are to take back the right to make and administer our own rules on things like crime and immigration. The existing trade benefits are fine but the continued intrusion into our everyday lives is just becoming too much and is not a price worth paying for the trade arrangements. if the EU don't want to meet amicably on trade without imposing other factors and a huge divorce settlement then we may end up with no trade deal. Far from ideal but we will, in the long term, come through it and I believe be stronger too. Thanks for the honest answer. I have sympathy for the immigration issues but not too sure which crimes or everyday intrusion you have experienced. The ECJ for example doesn't cover criminal law but acts as a final court for Intra EU disputes and legal clarification. |
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Post by inee on Jul 18, 2018 13:00:05 GMT
Out of interest, how much of the good bits would you give up to be free of the bad bits or how much of the bad bits would you accept to keep the good bits? Genuine question. I don't claim to know the in depth technicalities of all the various laws, treaties and agreements. The main issues for me are to take back the right to make and administer our own rules on things like crime and immigration. The existing trade benefits are fine but the continued intrusion into our everyday lives is just becoming too much and is not a price worth paying for the trade arrangements. if the EU don't want to meet amicably on trade without imposing other factors and a huge divorce settlement then we may end up with no trade deal. Far from ideal but we will, in the long term, come through it and I believe be stronger too. The ball was well and truly in our court ,unfortunately that opportunity has now passed .the eu know that may is weak ,they know that whoever is in charge of the uk will do a deal for which they are remembered by as the pm who delivered brexit ,tbf they have us over a barrel and will use that to beat us over the head with. Should have went in with a list of what we are going to do and do it ,rather than back-scuttling around and pandering ,as for trade deals that was easy either give us access to trade deals within europe or we will tax eu imports at a very high rate ,we could have an extremely favorable trade deal with china ,before people decry chinese quality dont forget that many items you buy are made in china ,year on year the quality is getting higher in the same way as japanese goods have got better. At the end of the day the eu has the most to lose ,i fully believe that many more countries will pull out of the eu if the uk becomes prosperous again. Someone mentioned japan i don't believe they will allow mass immigration for workers as they are having a few natural disasters over there ,i well remember years back when an earthquake hit their chip manufacturing plants and the price of RAM went through the roof. I feel the japs will move some of their industry to other countries as they have done with things like the car industry where the land is more stable and use local workers. I agree the way brexit has been handles is a clusterfuck of the highest order. |
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Post by inee on Jul 18, 2018 13:01:29 GMT
That was where a very basic mistake was made. The Brexit Negotiating Team should have been Cross-Party. Both Labour and Tory have turned Brexit into a political argument between themselves, when they should both have been busy working together to implementing the Democratic decision made by the people. Meanwhile, PM May and her advisers have turned Brexit into a joke, while the Labour alternative position (if you can really work out what it is) is pure fantasy. Which is why politicians of all sides are so despised and untrusted. Rather than getting on with the task in hand and doing what is best for the country they get in to petty, political arguments. Simple they do what is deemed best for themselves no matter which party the subscribe to. |
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Post by baggins on Jul 18, 2018 13:11:00 GMT
Which is why politicians of all sides are so despised and untrusted. Rather than getting on with the task in hand and doing what is best for the country they get in to petty, political arguments. Simple they do what is deemed best for themselves no matter which party the subscribe to. And most of the multi millionaire Tories do just that. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2018 13:18:50 GMT
Simple they do what is deemed best for themselves no matter which party the subscribe to. And most of the multi millionaire Tories do just that. Think you'll find there are just as many multi-millionaires on the Labour side. |
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Post by inee on Jul 18, 2018 13:26:11 GMT
Simple they do what is deemed best for themselves no matter which party the subscribe to. And most of the multi millionaire Tories do just that. As i said all parties ,just because someone's a tory mp doesn't mean the are rich , obviously your darling bLair did what was the best for the uk ,and didn't feather his own nest by going to war on a lie and lining up a job as a peace envoy to the same region he destroyed. na just tories |
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Post by jaggas on Jul 18, 2018 17:52:22 GMT
The vile Neil Kinnock was very anti EU during his time in opposition yet he and his family of pigs have made themselves multi millionaires thanks to having their snouts deep in the EU trough.
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Post by jaggas on Jul 18, 2018 17:55:44 GMT
I'll take it you are correct about Japans shrinking workforce but one thing is for sure and they have stated numerous times is they will not open their country to the third world and import their backward religion and all the problems that come with it.They have to be admired for that sensible policy.Germany havebdhowed that policy is wrong as their welfare bill has grown enormously. Germany is fecked, and it's only now that Merkel realizes it. The vast majority (something like 98%) of the 2 million migrants and Asylum Seekers that have arrived in Germany since 2015 will never find a job here. They lack the language skills, the work ethic and the educational standards to find work. There are still 10,000 arriving every month. Each one costs 1,000 Euros per month (minimum) to take care of. That is 10 MILLION per month (minimum) being added to the Welfare Budget, every month.....which doesn't include the cost of the other two million already mention. Government estimates put the total cost at around 20 Billion so far, and for that Germany gets very few workers, yet that is the main reason for allowing migrants in. On the bright side the falling population will rise in Germany as the third world immigrants breed like rabbits when someone else is paying to support their offspring who like their parents will fail to integrate or contribute. |
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