|
|
Post by stuart1974 on Oct 29, 2018 14:08:33 GMT
If this was purely about a trading organisation then I don't think there would have been a referendum in the first place and if there was remain would have won by a landslide. I think the majority have became fed up with the growth of the EU and its role in other areas of our lives other than trade and it would only get worse. I don't think anyone who voted leave was expecting it to be a bed of roses in the short term but this country has overcome far worse over the generations and I'm willing to accept some short term economic pain in full confidence that we will flourish in the long term and others will then seek to follow. I think it's fairly obvious that the EU leaders are worried about us making a success of independence which is why they are trying to be as difficult (arguably impossible) to negotiate with as they can despite their stance and the forcing of a harsh brexit being potentially detrimental to their remaining member states. If I was being totally selfish and thought solely about myself and how short term economic problems could impact on me then I would have voted remain. Instead I voted leave which I think is the better option for this country in the longer term. Looking at the bullying tactics of the EU during 'negotiations' I'm glad to be leaving such a vile organisation which is run by decidedly dodgy characters with their snouts firmly wedged in the EU troughs. Areas other than trade? Which were these (allowing that the 4 freedoms are part of the trade terms). |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2018 14:08:37 GMT
and as predicted, Merkel's CDU took another hammering in the Hessen State elections, as did their coalition partners the SPD. The result is that Merkel is stepping down as the Chair of the CDU Party, however she will remain Chancellor. However, she has already said she will not stand for re-election. It's the end of Merkel. As being shown right across Europe, people are fed-up with the same-old same-old parties. Agreed. Same old mealy mouthed politicians offering no solutions to everyday problems. Leaving gaping holes for a motly collection of alt right loonies, 19th century Marxists and dreamers. A plague on all their houses. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2018 14:09:45 GMT
If this was purely about a trading organisation then I don't think there would have been a referendum in the first place and if there was remain would have won by a landslide. I think the majority have became fed up with the growth of the EU and its role in other areas of our lives other than trade and it would only get worse. I don't think anyone who voted leave was expecting it to be a bed of roses in the short term but this country has overcome far worse over the generations and I'm willing to accept some short term economic pain in full confidence that we will flourish in the long term and others will then seek to follow. I think it's fairly obvious that the EU leaders are worried about us making a success of independence which is why they are trying to be as difficult (arguably impossible) to negotiate with as they can despite their stance and the forcing of a harsh brexit being potentially detrimental to their remaining member states. If I was being totally selfish and thought solely about myself and how short term economic problems could impact on me then I would have voted remain. Instead I voted leave which I think is the better option for this country in the longer term. Looking at the bullying tactics of the EU during 'negotiations' I'm glad to be leaving such a vile organisation which is run by decidedly dodgy characters with their snouts firmly wedged in the EU troughs. Areas other than trade? Which were these (allowing that the 4 freedoms are part of the trade terms). I can't wait. |
|
|
|
Post by stuart1974 on Oct 29, 2018 14:31:37 GMT
Eric Obviously you are entitled to your views, but you offer nothing, in terms of empirical evidence, to support them. I see you concede the trade and economic argument, but you hang on by a thread to an argument that despite this we will be better off in the long wrong, but offer no opinion as to how this will happen. I am also interested in your opinion of what "other areas of our lives" you think being members of the EU has caused intrusion? I can't think of one that has not had some beneficial impact. Perhaps you could articulate them. I look forward to your response. I don't think you are interested in or respect others views on this subject. You want me to put forward statements which you will argue against, quoting various lines from pro remain articles or carefully selected statistics. I can't be bothered to spend my days arguing with someone who will never respect my views or right to have my own opinion. I don't doubt your superior intelligence but the constant snide comments from pro-remain towards anyone who has a different view to them is very tiresome. If there is a travesty and a "People's vote" is granted the combined nastiness towards pro brexit voters from both the remain supporters and the same attitude from the EU leaders will make the leave margin of victory even more convincing. i don't want to be part of a superstate. I want us to have our independence to manage our affairs in respect of trade, borders, laws, defence etc...why do we want to limit ourselves to this one small group rather than build relationships with anyone around the globe? I don't trust any of the power brokers at the EU and I suspect with thorough investigation they would prove no less crooked than the likes of Sepp Blatter and his cronies at FIFA If remain had won I would have been disappointed but accepted the democratic choice of the country and just got on with life. I wouldn't constantly try to put down those with different views, March on the streets to overturn democracy or paint clever graffiti slogans on inner city walls. You should have tried being a remain poster on here two years ago!! Hopefully you will continue and respond as I would like to understand your views. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2018 14:31:59 GMT
"I am also interested in your opinion of what "other areas of our lives" you think being members of the EU has caused intrusion?" There is a simple answer to your argument Oldie. If you cannot mention one single area of your life that is impacted by the EU, then why worry if we leave? and once again I ask the question, which by the way, nobody even attempts to debate. Just what is the long-term future with staying in the EU? Are we looking at a United States of Europe? Are we looking at the end of sovereign countries? Does 'ever closer union' mean that we would have to adopt the Euro? Will we continue to be governed by an un-elected cabal in Brussels? Will our rely on our defence on a United States of Europe Defence Force? I worry about leaving because of A) The economic consequences, short and long term B) I worry about the social consequences of this economic impact in terms of funding for health, education and housing C) I worry about the cultural consequences in returning to an inward looking country, kidding itself by looking at the past with a false sense of achievement In terms of the future, I see the future as one of alliances, where sovereign States join by consensus to better their trade, defence and well being, under the umbrella of the rule of law. You? Btw, why not let Eric answer. Oh, ok. I didn't realise that I wasn't supposed to comment on an open forum. How silly of me eh! |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2018 14:45:32 GMT
Eric Obviously you are entitled to your views, but you offer nothing, in terms of empirical evidence, to support them. I see you concede the trade and economic argument, but you hang on by a thread to an argument that despite this we will be better off in the long wrong, but offer no opinion as to how this will happen. I am also interested in your opinion of what "other areas of our lives" you think being members of the EU has caused intrusion? I can't think of one that has not had some beneficial impact. Perhaps you could articulate them. I look forward to your response. I don't think you are interested in or respect others views on this subject. You want me to put forward statements which you will argue against, quoting various lines from pro remain articles or carefully selected statistics. I can't be bothered to spend my days arguing with someone who will never respect my views or right to have my own opinion. I don't doubt your superior intelligence but the constant snide comments from pro-remain towards anyone who has a different view to them is very tiresome. If there is a travesty and a "People's vote" is granted the combined nastiness towards pro brexit voters from both the remain supporters and the same attitude from the EU leaders will make the leave margin of victory even more convincing. i don't want to be part of a superstate. I want us to have our independence to manage our affairs in respect of trade, borders, laws, defence etc...why do we want to limit ourselves to this one small group rather than build relationships with anyone around the globe? I don't trust any of the power brokers at the EU and I suspect with thorough investigation they would prove no less crooked than the likes of Sepp Blatter and his cronies at FIFA If remain had won I would have been disappointed but accepted the democratic choice of the country and just got on with life. I wouldn't constantly try to put down those with different views, March on the streets to overturn democracy or paint clever graffiti slogans on inner city walls. With respect I can't respect your views if they are unfounded statements, can I? Eric, what sort of democracy do you believe in if we let political leaders just make statements, wishes or quote dreams which are completely without foundation or worse, completely untrue. If you have blind faith, then say so. I guess by inference of no defence you have. But excuse me if I object to that vision on behalf of my children and grandchildren who will ultimately pay the price for this gross act of economic and cultural vandalism. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2018 14:47:45 GMT
I worry about leaving because of A) The economic consequences, short and long term B) I worry about the social consequences of this economic impact in terms of funding for health, education and housing C) I worry about the cultural consequences in returning to an inward looking country, kidding itself by looking at the past with a false sense of achievement In terms of the future, I see the future as one of alliances, where sovereign States join by consensus to better their trade, defence and well being, under the umbrella of the rule of law. You? Btw, why not let Eric answer. Oh, ok. I didn't realise that I wasn't supposed to comment on an open forum. How silly of me eh! He has now. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2018 14:49:53 GMT
"what sort of democracy do you believe in if we let political leaders just make statements, wishes or quote dreams which are completely without foundation or worse, completely untrue."
Ha, ha, I think this is what happens with every parties election manifesto isn't it ?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2018 14:58:14 GMT
I worry about leaving because of A) The economic consequences, short and long term B) I worry about the social consequences of this economic impact in terms of funding for health, education and housing C) I worry about the cultural consequences in returning to an inward looking country, kidding itself by looking at the past with a false sense of achievement In terms of the future, I see the future as one of alliances, where sovereign States join by consensus to better their trade, defence and well being, under the umbrella of the rule of law. You? Btw, why not let Eric answer. Oh, ok. I didn't realise that I wasn't supposed to comment on an open forum. How silly of me eh! Feel free to carry on Nobby. I'm aware i'm intellectually inferior and a less articulate debater on the matter so I'm not going to argue further with those better than me. All it's doing is feeding those who enjoy the feeling of superiority and will never let go and have an answer to support their way of thinking for anything put forward. It will prove pointless as none of us will change our opinions but not everyone respects others. Unfortunately I'm only educated to A level standard, held a job in middle management for 25 years, resided in the UK from birth and really have no business having an opinion let along being allowed to vote. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2018 15:16:06 GMT
"what sort of democracy do you believe in if we let political leaders just make statements, wishes or quote dreams which are completely without foundation or worse, completely untrue." Ha, ha, I think this is what happens with every parties election manifesto isn't it ? Yes, to a greater or lesser degree. But the Referendum was a whole new level and subsequently it's got worse. Also, we can boot out parties and their policies. This is a forever decision. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2018 15:16:58 GMT
Oh, ok. I didn't realise that I wasn't supposed to comment on an open forum. How silly of me eh! Feel free to carry on Nobby. I'm aware i'm intellectually inferior and a less articulate debater on the matter so I'm not going to argue further with those better than me. All it's doing is feeding those who enjoy the feeling of superiority and will never let go and have an answer to support their way of thinking for anything put forward. It will prove pointless as none of us will change our opinions but not everyone respects others. Unfortunately I'm only educated to A level standard, held a job in middle management for 25 years, resided in the UK from birth and really have no business having an opinion let along being allowed to vote. Come on Eric, that's just running away. |
|
|
|
Post by stuart1974 on Oct 29, 2018 15:21:16 GMT
"what sort of democracy do you believe in if we let political leaders just make statements, wishes or quote dreams which are completely without foundation or worse, completely untrue." Ha, ha, I think this is what happens with every parties election manifesto isn't it ? Then we get to vote again in local, mayoral, PCC, European and then nationally again within five years. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2018 15:30:04 GMT
"what sort of democracy do you believe in if we let political leaders just make statements, wishes or quote dreams which are completely without foundation or worse, completely untrue." Ha, ha, I think this is what happens with every parties election manifesto isn't it ? Yes, to a greater or lesser degree. But the Referendum was a whole new level and subsequently it's got worse. Also, we can boot out parties and their policies. This is a forever decision. Yes, we can currently boot out parties and their policies if we wish. One of the benefits of being a sovereign nation. Now, how do we boot out those politicians in the EU that are un-elected? |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2018 15:41:05 GMT
Yes, to a greater or lesser degree. But the Referendum was a whole new level and subsequently it's got worse. Also, we can boot out parties and their policies. This is a forever decision. Yes, we can currently boot out parties and their policies if we wish. One of the benefits of being a sovereign nation. Now, how do we boot out those politicians in the EU that are un-elected? Mandate our elected parties not to sanction them as commissioners? |
|
|
|
Post by stuart1974 on Oct 29, 2018 15:44:51 GMT
Yes, we can currently boot out parties and their policies if we wish. One of the benefits of being a sovereign nation. Now, how do we boot out those politicians in the EU that are un-elected? Mandate our elected parties not to sanction them as commissioners? A bit like the House of Lords, Speaker and Civil Service then. |
|
irene
Reserve Team
Posts: 382
|
Post by irene on Oct 29, 2018 16:27:05 GMT
Peddling the same old nonsense that the EU is undemocratic.It is it’s just that we never win any votes a bit like the Liberal Democrat’s in our parliament
|
|
irene
Reserve Team
Posts: 382
|
Post by irene on Oct 29, 2018 16:30:45 GMT
We’ll also probably win any votes in the WTO or the trans Pacific partnership or whatever other inferior trade bloc we join up to
|
|
irene
Reserve Team
Posts: 382
|
Post by irene on Oct 29, 2018 16:31:27 GMT
Should have read never win
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2018 16:47:21 GMT
Mandate our elected parties not to sanction them as commissioners? A bit like the House of Lords, Speaker and Civil Service then. You know I agree wholeheartedly with that |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2018 16:53:05 GMT
Peddling the same old nonsense that the EU is undemocratic.It is it’s just that we never win any votes a bit like the Liberal Democrat’s in our parliament Tell Eric. |
|
