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Post by peterparker on Feb 19, 2020 10:57:31 GMT
My grip on reality will be the reality of Johnson's policies, acts and then outcomes. Like I said we can then compare that to promises made in campaigns. But to make that comparison we have to wait to see what he actually does. Let's take this proposed immigration bill which, to be fair to him is pretty much what he said he would do. Let's now see, once it's in place, what the outcome is for Agriculture and the Care industry. Things to look out for 1. Will the cost of the product or service rise, as a result? 2. Will the service or industry shrink as a result of labour shortages. 3. What will be outcomes be for the consumer or the end user. There, nice and easy. No need for argument, it will be there in black and white. You never know, Johnson may have uncovered the new "Paradigm" to quote my Greenspan. Cut the labour supply, raise wages, zero inflation and expand the provision. Was that a pig I just spotted? What if the intention is not to cut the labour supply, but instead to use labour that exists in the country instead of importing that labour? sounds good on paper, but what about 'official' record low unemployment and of course the problems of where the jobs are in relation to the people for the wages being paid
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2020 11:16:28 GMT
What if the intention is not to cut the labour supply, but instead to use labour that exists in the country instead of importing that labour? sounds good on paper, but what about 'official' record low unemployment and of course the problems of where the jobs are in relation to the people for the wages being paid "Unemployment measures people without a job who have been actively seeking work within the last four weeks and are available to start work within the next two weeks. The unemployment rate is not the proportion of the total population who are unemployed. It is the proportion of the economically active population (those in work plus those seeking and available to work) who are unemployed.
For October to December 2019, an estimated 1.29 million people were unemployed. This is 73,000 fewer than a year earlier and 580,000 fewer than five years earlier." Unemployment
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2020 11:33:02 GMT
sounds good on paper, but what about 'official' record low unemployment and of course the problems of where the jobs are in relation to the people for the wages being paid "Unemployment measures people without a job who have been actively seeking work within the last four weeks and are available to start work within the next two weeks. The unemployment rate is not the proportion of the total population who are unemployed. It is the proportion of the economically active population (those in work plus those seeking and available to work) who are unemployed.
For October to December 2019, an estimated 1.29 million people were unemployed. This is 73,000 fewer than a year earlier and 580,000 fewer than five years earlier." UnemploymentWhilst I couldn't imagine the sort of forced labour you quoted as an example in place in Germany, there is an issue with unemployment when there are vacancies in the economy. To get a better understanding of that, rather than just blithely quite the top line, there is a need to break it down by region. Take where I use to live, in Hertfordshire. There has been literally zero unemployment in some areas, St Albans, Welwyn Garden City for eg. There are, or were during my time, large numbers of vacancies for people to work in the care sector. But no people, not locally sourced at least. So immigration fills the gap. In the meantime, our old friends in Stockton on Tees (previously used as an example) suffer relatively high rates of unemployment. So to quote the divine Mr Tebbit, why dont they get on their bike and cycle down to the leafy confines of Hertfordshire and take up one of the jobs. In two words, cost and Housing. Immigrants who come initially tend to accept poor over crowded housing conditions (read Hatfield for Welwyn Garden City) but if you are in a decent council house in Stockton why would you give that up for £400 a week most of which will go on private rented accommodation in Hatfield? You wouldn't, and they dont.
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stuart1974
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Post by stuart1974 on Feb 19, 2020 11:45:03 GMT
"Unemployment measures people without a job who have been actively seeking work within the last four weeks and are available to start work within the next two weeks. The unemployment rate is not the proportion of the total population who are unemployed. It is the proportion of the economically active population (those in work plus those seeking and available to work) who are unemployed.
For October to December 2019, an estimated 1.29 million people were unemployed. This is 73,000 fewer than a year earlier and 580,000 fewer than five years earlier." UnemploymentWhilst I couldn't imagine the sort of forced labour you quoted as an example in place in Germany, there is an issue with unemployment when there are vacancies in the economy. To get a better understanding of that, rather than just blithely quite the top line, there is a need to break it down by region. Take where I use to live, in Hertfordshire. There has been literally zero unemployment in some areas, St Albans, Welwyn Garden City for eg. There are, or were during my time, large numbers of vacancies for people to work in the care sector. But no people, not locally sourced at least. So immigration fills the gap. In the meantime, our old friends in Stockton on Tees (previously used as an example) suffer relatively high rates of unemployment. So to quote the divine Mr Tebbit, why dont they get on their bike and cycle down to the leafy confines of Hertfordshire and take up one of the jobs. In two words, cost and Housing. Immigrants who come initially tend to accept poor over crowded housing conditions (read Hatfield for Welwyn Garden City) but if you are in a decent council house in Stockton why would you give that up for £400 a week most of which will go on private rented accommodation in Hatfield? You wouldn't, and they dont. Get the kids picking fruit and veg during the summer holidays like they used to do and the northerers can use HS2 to commute to London for care sector roles. 😀 Actually, they are reopening some train lines and some money is going into buses. Perhaps I shouldn't joke.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2020 11:47:30 GMT
"Unemployment measures people without a job who have been actively seeking work within the last four weeks and are available to start work within the next two weeks. The unemployment rate is not the proportion of the total population who are unemployed. It is the proportion of the economically active population (those in work plus those seeking and available to work) who are unemployed.
For October to December 2019, an estimated 1.29 million people were unemployed. This is 73,000 fewer than a year earlier and 580,000 fewer than five years earlier." UnemploymentWhilst I couldn't imagine the sort of forced labour you quoted as an example in place in Germany, there is an issue with unemployment when there are vacancies in the economy. To get a better understanding of that, rather than just blithely quite the top line, there is a need to break it down by region. Take where I use to live, in Hertfordshire. There has been literally zero unemployment in some areas, St Albans, Welwyn Garden City for eg. There are, or were during my time, large numbers of vacancies for people to work in the care sector. But no people, not locally sourced at least. So immigration fills the gap. In the meantime, our old friends in Stockton on Tees (previously used as an example) suffer relatively high rates of unemployment. So to quote the divine Mr Tebbit, why dont they get on their bike and cycle down to the leafy confines of Hertfordshire and take up one of the jobs. In two words, cost and Housing. Immigrants who come initially tend to accept poor over crowded housing conditions (read Hatfield for Welwyn Garden City) but if you are in a decent council house in Stockton why would you give that up for £400 a week most of which will go on private rented accommodation in Hatfield? You wouldn't, and they dont. If you look at the proposed points system, then a Care Worker would have no problems coming in. The whole point of controlled immigration is not to stop those who are needed.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2020 11:48:55 GMT
Whilst I couldn't imagine the sort of forced labour you quoted as an example in place in Germany, there is an issue with unemployment when there are vacancies in the economy. To get a better understanding of that, rather than just blithely quite the top line, there is a need to break it down by region. Take where I use to live, in Hertfordshire. There has been literally zero unemployment in some areas, St Albans, Welwyn Garden City for eg. There are, or were during my time, large numbers of vacancies for people to work in the care sector. But no people, not locally sourced at least. So immigration fills the gap. In the meantime, our old friends in Stockton on Tees (previously used as an example) suffer relatively high rates of unemployment. So to quote the divine Mr Tebbit, why dont they get on their bike and cycle down to the leafy confines of Hertfordshire and take up one of the jobs. In two words, cost and Housing. Immigrants who come initially tend to accept poor over crowded housing conditions (read Hatfield for Welwyn Garden City) but if you are in a decent council house in Stockton why would you give that up for £400 a week most of which will go on private rented accommodation in Hatfield? You wouldn't, and they dont. Get the kids picking fruit and veg during the summer holidays like they used to do and the northerers can use HS2 to commute to London for care sector roles. 😀 Actually, they are reopening some train lines and some money is going into buses. Perhaps I shouldn't joke. I think both of you are concentrating on London and the surrounding area too much.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2020 11:56:25 GMT
Whilst I couldn't imagine the sort of forced labour you quoted as an example in place in Germany, there is an issue with unemployment when there are vacancies in the economy. To get a better understanding of that, rather than just blithely quite the top line, there is a need to break it down by region. Take where I use to live, in Hertfordshire. There has been literally zero unemployment in some areas, St Albans, Welwyn Garden City for eg. There are, or were during my time, large numbers of vacancies for people to work in the care sector. But no people, not locally sourced at least. So immigration fills the gap. In the meantime, our old friends in Stockton on Tees (previously used as an example) suffer relatively high rates of unemployment. So to quote the divine Mr Tebbit, why dont they get on their bike and cycle down to the leafy confines of Hertfordshire and take up one of the jobs. In two words, cost and Housing. Immigrants who come initially tend to accept poor over crowded housing conditions (read Hatfield for Welwyn Garden City) but if you are in a decent council house in Stockton why would you give that up for £400 a week most of which will go on private rented accommodation in Hatfield? You wouldn't, and they dont. If you look at the proposed points system, then a Care Worker would have no problems coming in. The whole point of controlled immigration is not to stop those who are needed. Let's see what's actually in the Act. I must say though the representative from the Care industry asked the rather pointed question, "Why has the Agricultural Sector received a 10,000 visa special dispensation annually, whilst the Care sector has none?" Leaving aside the fact that the dispensation is seasonal (I can see the cops with all their free time chasing agricultural workers across fields Benny Hill fashion when they overstay), the points system does not allow for care workers on the living wage. At current rates the annual income is less than £20K per. They would be disqualified.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2020 11:57:45 GMT
Get the kids picking fruit and veg during the summer holidays like they used to do and the northerers can use HS2 to commute to London for care sector roles. 😀 Actually, they are reopening some train lines and some money is going into buses. Perhaps I shouldn't joke. I think both of you are concentrating on London and the surrounding area too much. Where are the areas of highest employment and therefore labour shortages?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2020 12:01:59 GMT
If you look at the proposed points system, then a Care Worker would have no problems coming in. The whole point of controlled immigration is not to stop those who are needed. Let's see what's actually in the Act. I must say though the representative from the Care industry asked the rather pointed question, "Why has the Agricultural Sector received a 10,000 visa special dispensation annually, whilst the Care sector has none?" Leaving aside the fact that the dispensation is seasonal (I can see the cops with all their free time chasing agricultural workers across fields Benny Hill fashion when they overstay), the points system does not allow for care workers on the living wage. At current rates the annual income is less than £20K per. They would be disqualified.Wrong. 70 points is required. They get the following: 10 for speaking English. 20 for job offer 20 for proper skill level. 20 if the job is on the required list. Your living wage worry does not come into it. They would not be disqualified.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2020 12:04:48 GMT
Let's see what's actually in the Act. I must say though the representative from the Care industry asked the rather pointed question, "Why has the Agricultural Sector received a 10,000 visa special dispensation annually, whilst the Care sector has none?" Leaving aside the fact that the dispensation is seasonal (I can see the cops with all their free time chasing agricultural workers across fields Benny Hill fashion when they overstay), the points system does not allow for care workers on the living wage. At current rates the annual income is less than £20K per. They would be disqualified.Wrong. 70 points is required. They get the following: 10 for speaking English. 20 for job offer 20 for proper skill level. 20 if the job is on the required list. Your living wage worry does not come into it. They would not be disqualified. Incorrect The job offer has to be for a minimum of £25000 per annum.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2020 12:05:42 GMT
Wrong. 70 points is required. They get the following: 10 for speaking English. 20 for job offer 20 for proper skill level. 20 if the job is on the required list. Your living wage worry does not come into it. They would not be disqualified. Incorrect The job offer has to be for a minimum of £25000 per annum. post edit. The skill level is defined by an A level style qualification
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2020 12:12:39 GMT
Wrong. 70 points is required. They get the following: 10 for speaking English. 20 for job offer 20 for proper skill level. 20 if the job is on the required list. Your living wage worry does not come into it. They would not be disqualified. Incorrect The job offer has to be for a minimum of £25000 per annum. No. I politely suggest you go and look at the details again.
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Post by stuart1974 on Feb 19, 2020 12:31:56 GMT
Let's see what's actually in the Act. I must say though the representative from the Care industry asked the rather pointed question, "Why has the Agricultural Sector received a 10,000 visa special dispensation annually, whilst the Care sector has none?" Leaving aside the fact that the dispensation is seasonal (I can see the cops with all their free time chasing agricultural workers across fields Benny Hill fashion when they overstay), the points system does not allow for care workers on the living wage. At current rates the annual income is less than £20K per. They would be disqualified.Wrong. 70 points is required. They get the following: 10 for speaking English. 20 for job offer 20 for proper skill level. 20 if the job is on the required list. Your living wage worry does not come into it. They would not be disqualified. What recognised skill will they have? www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-51550421The immigration plans spell trouble for adult social care. The majority of people employed by the sector are low-paid care workers. They are responsible for providing daily help to older and disabled adults in care homes and the community. There are already significant shortages - one in 11 posts are unfilled. Foreign workers make up a sixth of the 840,000-strong care worker workforce in England. It is hard to see how in the future these staff could qualify. Even if it is classed as a skilled job - and even that is in doubt, as many workers do not come via an A-level route - the pay at under £20,000 on average is too low to qualify for any points. Nor is the role classed a shortage occupation. It seems certain applicants will fall well-short of the 70 points needed.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2020 13:00:37 GMT
No idea what skill requirements are needed. All I have detailed is the bullet points. I assume that there is more detail attached to each bullet point. "Foreign workers make up a sixth of the 840,000-strong care worker workforce in England. It is hard to see how in the future these staff could qualify." - If these staff are already working in the UK, then it is no problem. The new rules do not affect them. "Nor is the role classed a shortage occupation." - I don't think anyone has seen the list yet as to what is classified as a 'shortage occupation', but you said, "There are already significant shortages - one in 11 posts are unfilled.", which I assume will mean it is a 'shortage occupation'?
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Post by stuart1974 on Feb 19, 2020 13:14:42 GMT
No idea what skill requirements are needed. All I have detailed is the bullet points. I assume that there is more detail attached to each bullet point. "Foreign workers make up a sixth of the 840,000-strong care worker workforce in England. It is hard to see how in the future these staff could qualify." - If these staff are already working in the UK, then it is no problem. The new rules do not affect them. "Nor is the role classed a shortage occupation." - I don't think anyone has seen the list yet as to what is classified as a 'shortage occupation', but you said, "There are already significant shortages - one in 11 posts are unfilled.", which I assume will mean it is a 'shortage occupation'? Skills have been downgraded from degree to A level equivalents.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2020 13:25:30 GMT
No idea what skill requirements are needed. All I have detailed is the bullet points. I assume that there is more detail attached to each bullet point. "Foreign workers make up a sixth of the 840,000-strong care worker workforce in England. It is hard to see how in the future these staff could qualify." - If these staff are already working in the UK, then it is no problem. The new rules do not affect them. "Nor is the role classed a shortage occupation." - I don't think anyone has seen the list yet as to what is classified as a 'shortage occupation', but you said, "There are already significant shortages - one in 11 posts are unfilled.", which I assume will mean it is a 'shortage occupation'? All of which makes the point made by the representative of the Care Industry this morning. Potential foreign recruits will not qualify on pay, 0 points, highly unlikely to qualify based on a base level of A level, 0 points. So they may get a sponsor..20 points, They speak English 10 points, the government may roll over and classify the roles as in the "shortage jobs list" 20 points. That's 50. They wont qualify.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2020 13:57:39 GMT
No idea what skill requirements are needed. All I have detailed is the bullet points. I assume that there is more detail attached to each bullet point. "Foreign workers make up a sixth of the 840,000-strong care worker workforce in England. It is hard to see how in the future these staff could qualify." - If these staff are already working in the UK, then it is no problem. The new rules do not affect them. "Nor is the role classed a shortage occupation." - I don't think anyone has seen the list yet as to what is classified as a 'shortage occupation', but you said, "There are already significant shortages - one in 11 posts are unfilled.", which I assume will mean it is a 'shortage occupation'? All of which makes the point made by the representative of the Care Industry this morning. Potential foreign recruits will not qualify on pay, 0 points, highly unlikely to qualify based on a base level of A level, 0 points. So they may get a sponsor..20 points, They speak English 10 points, the government may roll over and classify the roles as in the "shortage jobs list" 20 points. That's 50. They wont qualify. C'mon Oldie, it's not that difficult is it? Look at the bullet points again, and you'll see that the top three in Red are mandatory. That makes 50 points. The other 20 points come from the job being on the 'shortage list'. Secondly, the devil will be in the detail, as they say. I expect they will class relevant experience against the skill level as well. A person may not have the A level required but they may have the relevant experience.
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Post by althepirate on Feb 19, 2020 14:15:57 GMT
We are all looking after ourselves as individuals though aren't we Stuart. It's ok to talk about low inflation but the wages are so low, I'm talking £3 per hour that migrants accept, that if you are British and in these jobs then your standard of living will plummet. It's ok if a person is in a well paid job, but not at the lower end. If and employer is paying £3 an hour Al, that's illegal. Yes that's true Oldie, but employers get around it by for example, not paying travel time which they should but they don't and live in care work where the client gets up every night.
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Post by peterparker on Feb 19, 2020 16:15:20 GMT
in terms of EU nationals already here, BCC tweeted only 1% of applicants for the settlement scheme were over 65 and asked for people to spread the word and/or help.
I replied asking for some context and this was the reply
Thanks for the question. Recent statistics show that the low uptake of the scheme from over 65s is a national issue. There are over 7,000 EU citizens over the age of 76 in Bristol (electoral role statistics). BCC & other orgs supporting EU citizens are now working to address this
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2020 17:19:53 GMT
If and employer is paying £3 an hour Al, that's illegal. Yes that's true Oldie, but employers get around it by for example, not paying travel time which they should but they don't and live in care work where the client gets up every night. Yes, not sure about travel time. Most of us don't get paid for our commute to work. But once "clocked on" travel between locations is paid? I actually don't know the answer to that. On live in, I heard that carers get paid an 8 hour shift regardless of the time spent with the client. That needs dealing with through employment law.
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