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Post by stuart1974 on Nov 29, 2020 19:47:05 GMT
Not that old excuse. The JRM get out clause . It's a fact not an excuse you can't judge how 2 separate large Economies perform in 3 months . True of itself but I would contest that to what point, if things go south in the near term, just how much the economy has to improve to make good the drop so we have a net gain over time. I'm not sure many voted to be poorer so their great grandchildren may be a bit richer. Besides the logical extension to that would be to look back over the past 30 years, in which case we'd never have left. I still believe there is no economic rationale to Brexit. By all means vote to leave for democratic reasons, at least there is some credence there, although I'd still argue it is and was overplayed. |
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Post by trevorgas on Nov 29, 2020 19:51:59 GMT
Dont mistake me for a Tory voter or anything else,I am just seeking evidence and objectivity before I make up my mind what's a balls up and what has caused it rather than supposition,if Brexit is the cause then fine but I won't waste time agonising over a decision made 4/5 years ago. By the way my names Clive Well exactly that, it's a win/win then really isn't it? If it goes well then you made a great decision. If it doesn't then you can say give it more time. If it's still rubbish in 5 years time then ah well, it was 5 years ago. At what point is there responsibility? Thought it was Clive, but couldn't quite remember  Sorry don't get your point,I took personalresponsibility the day I voted,if it goes badly then we all lose so my hope is it goes well.If were talking about the government taking responsibility then my guess is that when we do know those who campaigned are not likely to be in a position of power and I will be more interested in what the government of the day will do rather than pursuing folk of all political persuasions to make them atone for what we're genuinely held beliefs at the time. |
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Post by trevorgas on Nov 29, 2020 20:04:40 GMT
It's a fact not an excuse you can't judge how 2 separate large Economies perform in 3 months . True of itself but I would contest that to what point, if things go south in the near term, just how much the economy has to improve to make good the drop so we have a net gain over time. I'm not sure many voted to be poorer so their great grandchildren may be a bit richer. Besides the logical extension to that would be to look back over the past 30 years, in which case we'd never have left. I still believe there is no economic rationale to Brexit. By all means vote to leave for democratic reasons, at least there is some credence there, although I'd still argue it is and was overplayed. I don't disagree Stuart,I just wonder how clearcut it will be,there are many factors that impact economic growth and I will be looking for the evidential links. I have a bigger concern that the fundamental changes we will have to make to deliver zero carbon will also have a significant impact. How do we replace the historical tax revenues we have had from the Car Industry over the past 40 years,massively reduced tax revenue from fuel etc etc and this will happen in the next few years if we are to phase out Petrol/Diesel by 2030. There needs to be an honest conversation with all of us on how we are to fund our Public Services in the future when traditional tax revenues start to decline. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Nov 29, 2020 20:20:30 GMT
True of itself but I would contest that to what point, if things go south in the near term, just how much the economy has to improve to make good the drop so we have a net gain over time. I'm not sure many voted to be poorer so their great grandchildren may be a bit richer. Besides the logical extension to that would be to look back over the past 30 years, in which case we'd never have left. I still believe there is no economic rationale to Brexit. By all means vote to leave for democratic reasons, at least there is some credence there, although I'd still argue it is and was overplayed. I don't disagree Stuart,I just wonder how clearcut it will be,there are many factors that impact economic growth and I will be looking for the evidential links. I have a bigger concern that the fundamental changes we will have to make to deliver zero carbon will also have a significant impact. How do we replace the historical tax revenues we have had from the Car Industry over the past 40 years,massively reduced tax revenue from fuel etc etc and this will happen in the next few years if we are to phase out Petrol/Diesel by 2030. There needs to be an honest conversation with all of us on how we are to fund our Public Services in the future when traditional tax revenues start to decline. I suspect there will be sufficient evidence for both the defence and the prosecution, t'was always thus. As for the reduction in tax revenues, that will be a challenge, although the 2030 target for cars is just new vehicles, still be plenty of petrol and diesel cars driving around. Politicians and honest conversations don't tend to coexist. Manifestos promising tax cuts then actually increase them will carry on. |
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Post by trevorgas on Nov 29, 2020 20:23:57 GMT
I don't disagree Stuart,I just wonder how clearcut it will be,there are many factors that impact economic growth and I will be looking for the evidential links. I have a bigger concern that the fundamental changes we will have to make to deliver zero carbon will also have a significant impact. How do we replace the historical tax revenues we have had from the Car Industry over the past 40 years,massively reduced tax revenue from fuel etc etc and this will happen in the next few years if we are to phase out Petrol/Diesel by 2030. There needs to be an honest conversation with all of us on how we are to fund our Public Services in the future when traditional tax revenues start to decline. I suspect there will be sufficient evidence for both the defence and the prosecution, t'was always thus. As for the reduction in tax revenues, that will be a challenge, although the 2030 target for cars is just new vehicles, still be plenty of petrol and diesel cars driving around. Politicians and honest conversations don't tend to coexist. Manifestos promising tax cuts then actually increase them will carry on. Haha can't disagree with that 😆😆 |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2020 21:14:34 GMT
Dont mistake me for a Tory voter or anything else,I am just seeking evidence and objectivity before I make up my mind what's a balls up and what has caused it rather than supposition,if Brexit is the cause then fine but I won't waste time agonising over a decision made 4/5 years ago. By the way my names Clive Well exactly that, it's a win/win then really isn't it? If it goes well then you made a great decision. If it doesn't then you can say give it more time. If it's still rubbish in 5 years time then ah well, it was 5 years ago. At what point is there responsibility? Thought it was Clive, but couldn't quite remember Just give it another ten games EDIT: sorry, wrong thread! |
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Post by Gassy on Nov 29, 2020 22:50:02 GMT
Well exactly that, it's a win/win then really isn't it? If it goes well then you made a great decision. If it doesn't then you can say give it more time. If it's still rubbish in 5 years time then ah well, it was 5 years ago. At what point is there responsibility? Thought it was Clive, but couldn't quite remember Sorry don't get your point,I took personalresponsibility the day I voted,if it goes badly then we all lose so my hope is it goes well.If were talking about the government taking responsibility then my guess is that when we do know those who campaigned are not likely to be in a position of power and I will be more interested in what the government of the day will do rather than pursuing folk of all political persuasions to make them atone for what we're genuinely held beliefs at the time. The point I'm saying is that it's all well you took responsibility when you voted, we all did. But you must also take some responsibility if it all goes tits up. Not just shrug it off with an 'ah well'. You can take credit if it all goes well of course - but so far the early signs aren't in that favour. |
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Post by trevorgas on Nov 30, 2020 7:50:40 GMT
Sorry don't get your point,I took personalresponsibility the day I voted,if it goes badly then we all lose so my hope is it goes well.If were talking about the government taking responsibility then my guess is that when we do know those who campaigned are not likely to be in a position of power and I will be more interested in what the government of the day will do rather than pursuing folk of all political persuasions to make them atone for what we're genuinely held beliefs at the time. The point I'm saying is that it's all well you took responsibility when you voted, we all did. But you must also take some responsibility if it all goes tits up. Not just shrug it off with an 'ah well'. You can take credit if it all goes well of course - but so far the early signs aren't in that favour. How can I take responsibility for something I have no control over,we all vote in General Elections but can't control the process and implementation by the government. If it goes wrong then what does responsibility look like ,do we have to self flagellate to atone?. We all make decisions that don't go right however I will never criticise anyone who makes a decision with integrity and accepts the consequences of their decision whether I agreed with it at the time or not. |
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Post by yattongas on Nov 30, 2020 10:36:52 GMT
The point I'm saying is that it's all well you took responsibility when you voted, we all did. But you must also take some responsibility if it all goes tits up. Not just shrug it off with an 'ah well'. You can take credit if it all goes well of course - but so far the early signs aren't in that favour. How can I take responsibility for something I have no control over,we all vote in General Elections but can't control the process and implementation by the government. If it goes wrong then what does responsibility look like ,do we have to self flagellate to atone?. We all make decisions that don't go right however I will never criticise anyone who makes a decision with integrity and accepts the consequences of their decision whether I agreed with it at the time or not. You had a responsibility to not listen to idiots like Farage , Boris , Digby Pudding-Jones and the rest of the bull sh**ting liars. Happy to help 😁 |
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Post by trevorgas on Nov 30, 2020 10:53:11 GMT
How can I take responsibility for something I have no control over,we all vote in General Elections but can't control the process and implementation by the government. If it goes wrong then what does responsibility look like ,do we have to self flagellate to atone?. We all make decisions that don't go right however I will never criticise anyone who makes a decision with integrity and accepts the consequences of their decision whether I agreed with it at the time or not. You had a responsibility to not listen to idiots like Farage , Boris , Digby Pudding-Jones and the rest of the bull sh**ting liars. Happy to help 😁 Ah so I should have listened to the old Etonian Cameron and the serial liar Blair. I made my mind up independently,strangely enough 😊 |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2020 13:38:49 GMT
As Clive, (Trevorgas) is one of our most coherent of contributors, let's not sling aggression his way.
I agree with a lot of what Clive posts, it does appear that we both sit in the centre of political and economic policy.
However, on Brexit, we disagree.
My issue stems from the lack of any coherent reasoning for the cancelling
of our Treaty arrangements with the EU, not only for the loss of tariff free access to the wealthiest consumer market in the world, not only the loss of preferential trading arrangements with circa 40 other countries or regions, but the loss of the personal freedom to live, work and roam within the constituent countries at my leisure and without constraint from the governments of those countries.
Now here is the real rub.
My time is done and I have been lucky.
As a baby boomer I had the privilege of growing up in a country which had free health care, entirely free education including tertiary (plus a grant!!) a social evolution which rid us of the disgusting Victorian practices and faux morality and a sustained period of economic growth which led to a standard of living my parents mostly and my grandparents, absolutely, could only dream of.
During that period, since my 23rd year, we have been members of the EU in its various forms as it evolved.
Is it a coincidence that our economic gains accrued in the way that they have?
Now we leave.
With no coherent plan for our future, a future which will deny my grandchildren the same freedoms of movement that I was able to enjoy, two grandchildren forced to choose a nationality (French or British) because they happened to be born in Hong Kong.
And for what exactly?
Some ill defined sense of nationalism trumpeted by the same ideological idiots we booted in the 1960s.
Stand up Johnson and Rees-Mogg, you utter Neanderthals.
So I resent the vote which has / will impact by descendents in a very negative way for no societal gain.
I bitterly resent it.
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Post by trevorgas on Nov 30, 2020 14:25:08 GMT
As Clive, (Trevorgas) is one of our most coherent of contributors, let's not sling aggression his way. I agree with a lot of what Clive posts, it does appear that we both sit in the centre of political and economic policy. However, on Brexit, we disagree. My issue stems from the lack of any coherent reasoning for the cancelling of our Treaty arrangements with the EU, not only for the loss of tariff free access to the wealthiest consumer market in the world, not only the loss of preferential trading arrangements with circa 40 other countries or regions, but the loss of the personal freedom to live, work and roam within the constituent countries at my leisure and without constraint from the governments of those countries. Now here is the real rub. My time is done and I have been lucky. As a baby boomer I had the privilege of growing up in a country which had free health care, entirely free education including tertiary (plus a grant!!) a social evolution which rid us of the disgusting Victorian practices and faux morality and a sustained period of economic growth which led to a standard of living my parents mostly and my grandparents, absolutely, could only dream of. During that period, since my 23rd year, we have been members of the EU in its various forms as it evolved. Is it a coincidence that our economic gains accrued in the way that they have? Now we leave. With no coherent plan for our future, a future which will deny my grandchildren the same freedoms of movement that I was able to enjoy, two grandchildren forced to choose a nationality (French or British) because they happened to be born in Hong Kong. And for what exactly? Some ill defined sense of nationalism trumpeted by the same ideological idiots we booted in the 1960s. Stand up Johnson and Rees-Mogg, you utter Neanderthals. So I resent the vote which has / will impact by descendents in a very negative way for no societal gain. I bitterly resent it. Thanks Les and I agree we agree to disagree on Brexit,it is a very divisive issue. I will not go through the reasons why I voted leave again only that Nationalism,Racism or Xenophobia never formed any part of my thought process and like everyone i voted with integrity. I fully respect the passion we all display on this issue,if it goes badly wrong then I will hold my hand up. Ps. Les you put your Argument very well,a pity that the Remain Politicians were not so lucid. Didn't mean to like my own posts 😂 |
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Post by Gassy on Nov 30, 2020 14:50:20 GMT
The point I'm saying is that it's all well you took responsibility when you voted, we all did. But you must also take some responsibility if it all goes tits up. Not just shrug it off with an 'ah well'. You can take credit if it all goes well of course - but so far the early signs aren't in that favour. How can I take responsibility for something I have no control over,we all vote in General Elections but can't control the process and implementation by the government. If it goes wrong then what does responsibility look like ,do we have to self flagellate to atone?. We all make decisions that don't go right however I will never criticise anyone who makes a decision with integrity and accepts the consequences of their decision whether I agreed with it at the time or not. The bold part is it though really. Unless I've misread your posts, I don't get the feeling you'll accept the consequences of your decision to vote Brexit if it all goes wrong? Tbh it screams of wanting your cake and eating it. |
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Post by trevorgas on Nov 30, 2020 14:56:25 GMT
How can I take responsibility for something I have no control over,we all vote in General Elections but can't control the process and implementation by the government. If it goes wrong then what does responsibility look like ,do we have to self flagellate to atone?. We all make decisions that don't go right however I will never criticise anyone who makes a decision with integrity and accepts the consequences of their decision whether I agreed with it at the time or not. The bold part is it though really. Unless I've misread your posts, I don't get the feeling you'll accept the consequences of your decision to vote Brexit if it all goes wrong? Tbh it screams of wanting your cake and eating it. Ah well perhaps read my last post on this. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Nov 30, 2020 15:05:20 GMT
As Clive, (Trevorgas) is one of our most coherent of contributors, let's not sling aggression his way. I agree with a lot of what Clive posts, it does appear that we both sit in the centre of political and economic policy. However, on Brexit, we disagree. My issue stems from the lack of any coherent reasoning for the cancelling of our Treaty arrangements with the EU, not only for the loss of tariff free access to the wealthiest consumer market in the world, not only the loss of preferential trading arrangements with circa 40 other countries or regions, but the loss of the personal freedom to live, work and roam within the constituent countries at my leisure and without constraint from the governments of those countries. Now here is the real rub. My time is done and I have been lucky. As a baby boomer I had the privilege of growing up in a country which had free health care, entirely free education including tertiary (plus a grant!!) a social evolution which rid us of the disgusting Victorian practices and faux morality and a sustained period of economic growth which led to a standard of living my parents mostly and my grandparents, absolutely, could only dream of. During that period, since my 23rd year, we have been members of the EU in its various forms as it evolved. Is it a coincidence that our economic gains accrued in the way that they have? Now we leave. With no coherent plan for our future, a future which will deny my grandchildren the same freedoms of movement that I was able to enjoy, two grandchildren forced to choose a nationality (French or British) because they happened to be born in Hong Kong. And for what exactly? Some ill defined sense of nationalism trumpeted by the same ideological idiots we booted in the 1960s. Stand up Johnson and Rees-Mogg, you utter Neanderthals. So I resent the vote which has / will impact by descendents in a very negative way for no societal gain. I bitterly resent it. Agree with this. My other point, and probably my biggest gripe about this, is the diluting of the Brexit message and watering down of the terms discussed in 2016. We've gone from the likes of 'nothing will affect our relationship with the single market', 'oven ready deal' and 'easiest deal in history', etc through to no deal equals Australian terms and is actually a good thing. Had there been a realistic proposal at the time rather than mere wishful thinking then I could get behind them more. Liars and charlatans. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Nov 30, 2020 15:14:13 GMT
Is anyone with second homes affected by the 90 day rule touted over the weekend?
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Post by trevorgas on Nov 30, 2020 15:23:20 GMT
Is anyone with second homes affected by the 90 day rule touted over the weekend? Missed that what's the 90 day rule?? |
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Post by stuart1974 on Nov 30, 2020 15:30:33 GMT
So, this is apparently the last week to get a deal over the line in time for 1 January 2021. How are we feeling?
I'm still expecting a deal with both sides extolling the virtues of compromise. Other option is no deal although an extension of some form, subject to a political face saving caveat can't be entirely ruled out.
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Post by trevorgas on Nov 30, 2020 15:34:10 GMT
So, this is apparently the last week to get a deal over the line in time for 1 January 2021. How are we feeling? I'm still expecting a deal with both sides extolling the virtues of compromise. Other option is no deal although an extension of some form, subject to a political face saving caveat can't be entirely ruled out. I agree,a lot of last minute posturing for domestic consumption,it's in everyone's interest to do the deal and AM is 100% right. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Nov 30, 2020 15:35:01 GMT
Is anyone with second homes affected by the 90 day rule touted over the weekend? Missed that what's the 90 day rule?? Non EU citizens limited to 90 day stay, apparently. "Weekend stories about Brits losing out on year-round access to second homes in Europe after the Brexit transition period are still prompting a lot of discussion on Twitter. The Mail and others claim Brexiteers are “furious” at travel rules limiting them to 90 days, but as expert in EU law Prof Steve Peers points out: “These aren’t new EU rules. They are existing rules for non-EU citizens if their country has not signed up to free movement.” A predictable consequence of Brexit, as many have noted." |
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