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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2018 6:12:57 GMT
No I read the bus logo for what it meant and not what the twisted version spun by remain I.e if we didn't have to pay a massive tax to the EU every year that sum COULD be spent within out shores, SUCH AS on the NHS for example. Yes, you may have read it correctly but many did not and it was deliberately vague and misleading for a reason. The same goes for every parties manifesto in every general election ! |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2018 6:17:17 GMT
Ok. So what you are suggesting is that all the statistics that come out from central government are untrue, not accurate. Now I accept a 1% here or there but nothing like enough to justify your very broad claim that immigrants come here to claim benefits to a degree which is statistically relevant. So pray tell, other than "down the pub" anecdotal stories, how do you justify ypur assertion? Serious question Wow, this is a prime example of why it is s difficult to debate issues in the UK, as you Oldie, have fallen into the same routine that ends up killing debate. I said the government figures on unemployment are not always 'correct'. In response, you assume, wrongly, that I do not believe any figures given out by the government. Why do you make that massive leap? Why do you even assume things like that? First off, unemployment figures. It is a well known, and proven fact, that successive government, from both sides, have 'massaged' the unemployment figures. They do this in an attempt to show that their economic policies are working. I remember a time, and I cannot remember which government it was, when anyone who was unemployed and on a government funded training course, were not classified as 'unemployed'. The result was that the unemployment figures were shown to be down. The reality of course, was that those people were still unemployed, but they didn't show up in the figures. Smoke and mirrors. Next, if someone has a different viewpoint to you, why do you always try to belittle the poster, and then you ignore the argument? Time and time again you throw out little slurs that are intended to deflect from the argument, and instead you try to put the emphasis on the posters? So now, my opinions are based on "down the pub" anecdotal stories are they? Why do you assume that you are so high and mighty and that others do not have the intellectual ability to form their own decisions? In this thread alone you have 'indicated' that those who have a differing opinion to yours are 'thick racists', 'Trump supporters', 'Sun readers', and now can only form opinions based on "down the pub anecdotal stories"! Stick to debating the issues, and not having sly digs eh! Ok Then I claim the immigration numbers are not accurate and overstated. I have no justification for stating that other than my opinion, which has no basis in fact. Fair enough? |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2018 6:21:42 GMT
Not misleading at all then... FFS Hugo. There were lies spouted by both sides. If you keep harping on about this one thing you just deflect from the debate. This was one perceived lie from the Leave group. What about the multitude of lies given out by the government, the CBI, the IMF, the EU etc etc ! You cannot change what happened. Instead, you should be trying to focus on the future. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2018 6:24:59 GMT
Wow, this is a prime example of why it is s difficult to debate issues in the UK, as you Oldie, have fallen into the same routine that ends up killing debate. I said the government figures on unemployment are not always 'correct'. In response, you assume, wrongly, that I do not believe any figures given out by the government. Why do you make that massive leap? Why do you even assume things like that? First off, unemployment figures. It is a well known, and proven fact, that successive government, from both sides, have 'massaged' the unemployment figures. They do this in an attempt to show that their economic policies are working. I remember a time, and I cannot remember which government it was, when anyone who was unemployed and on a government funded training course, were not classified as 'unemployed'. The result was that the unemployment figures were shown to be down. The reality of course, was that those people were still unemployed, but they didn't show up in the figures. Smoke and mirrors. Next, if someone has a different viewpoint to you, why do you always try to belittle the poster, and then you ignore the argument? Time and time again you throw out little slurs that are intended to deflect from the argument, and instead you try to put the emphasis on the posters? So now, my opinions are based on "down the pub" anecdotal stories are they? Why do you assume that you are so high and mighty and that others do not have the intellectual ability to form their own decisions? In this thread alone you have 'indicated' that those who have a differing opinion to yours are 'thick racists', 'Trump supporters', 'Sun readers', and now can only form opinions based on "down the pub anecdotal stories"! Stick to debating the issues, and not having sly digs eh! Ok Then I claim the immigration numbers are not accurate and overstated. I have no justification for stating that other than my opinion, which has no basis in fact. Fair enough? The Immigration figures are not correct. The official figures only count the 'legal' immigrants. They are not overstated but in fact, understated. The government has no knowledge or understanding of how many illegal immigrants are coming into the country, therefore, the government figures on immigration must be wrong. |
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Aug 2, 2018 6:25:19 GMT
Not misleading at all then... FFS Hugo. There were lies spouted by both sides. If you keep harping on about this one thing you just deflect from the debate. This was one perceived lie from the Leave group. What about the multitude of lies given out by the government, the CBI, the IMF, the EU etc etc ! You cannot change what happened. Instead, you should be trying to focus on the future. I'm not the one harping on about anything!! People keep saying that Remain are now lying and scaremongering (they are) and I'm simply pointing out what you have. BOTH SIDES are lying bastards! |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2018 6:28:49 GMT
FFS Hugo. There were lies spouted by both sides. If you keep harping on about this one thing you just deflect from the debate. This was one perceived lie from the Leave group. What about the multitude of lies given out by the government, the CBI, the IMF, the EU etc etc ! You cannot change what happened. Instead, you should be trying to focus on the future. I'm not the one harping on about anything!! People keep saying that Remain are now lying and scaremongering (they are) and I'm simply pointing out what you have. BOTH SIDES are lying bastards! Yes, I agree with you, and not just about the lying for the referendum. They also do it at EVERY general election ! Now, when a general election result is close, do we hear cries to have a re-vote because the winners told porkies? Nah, we don't hear anything. My point is, why are people so concerned with either side telling lies before the referendum, when we accept it happens in every general election? |
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Aug 2, 2018 6:29:14 GMT
Ok Then I claim the immigration numbers are not accurate and overstated. I have no justification for stating that other than my opinion, which has no basis in fact. Fair enough? The Immigration figures are not correct. The official figures only count the 'legal' immigrants. They are not overstated but in fact, understated. The government has no knowledge or understanding of how many illegal immigrants are coming into the country, therefore, the government figures on immigration must be wrong. So the government don't know how many illegal immigrants there are but you and your mates down the pub do? I suppose for clarification we need to be talking about illegal EU immigrants, not Jaggas' scumbag mates. |
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Aug 2, 2018 6:31:23 GMT
I'm not the one harping on about anything!! People keep saying that Remain are now lying and scaremongering (they are) and I'm simply pointing out what you have. BOTH SIDES are lying bastards! Yes, I agree with you, and not just about the lying for the referendum. They also do it at EVERY general election ! Now, when a general election result is close, do we hear cries to have a re-vote because the winners told porkies? Nah, we don't hear anything. My point is, why are people so concerned with either side telling lies before the referendum, when we accept it happens in every general election? I'm not. I expected them to tell lies. It's Eric that's getting all upset because he says remain are now lying. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2018 6:32:53 GMT
The Immigration figures are not correct. The official figures only count the 'legal' immigrants. They are not overstated but in fact, understated. The government has no knowledge or understanding of how many illegal immigrants are coming into the country, therefore, the government figures on immigration must be wrong. So the government don't know how many illegal immigrants there are but you and your mates down the pub do? I suppose for clarification we need to be talking about illegal EU immigrants, not Jaggas' scumbag mates. I've no idea how many illegal immigrants there are in the UK. and illegal immigrants are just that, illegal immigrants. Doesn't matter if they come from inside or outside the EU. If they are illegal, they are illegal ! |
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Aug 2, 2018 6:36:34 GMT
So the government don't know how many illegal immigrants there are but you and your mates down the pub do? I suppose for clarification we need to be talking about illegal EU immigrants, not Jaggas' scumbag mates. I've no idea how many illegal immigrants there are in the UK. and illegal immigrants are just that, illegal immigrants. Doesn't matter if they come from inside or outside the EU. If they are illegal, they are illegal ! Not trying to be a dick, but you are ok with legal immigration but want an end to illegal immigration but you don't know how many there are? How will leaving the EU end illegal immigration? Or do you want an end to all immigration? |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2018 6:50:12 GMT
I've no idea how many illegal immigrants there are in the UK. and illegal immigrants are just that, illegal immigrants. Doesn't matter if they come from inside or outside the EU. If they are illegal, they are illegal ! Not trying to be a dick, but you are ok with legal immigration but want an end to illegal immigration but you don't know how many there are? How will leaving the EU end illegal immigration? Or do you want an end to all immigration? Oh Hugo, you cad sir, stating the obvious. But as Nobby demands, lets stick to the assertions. So if the immigration numbers are understated, and the numbers claiming benefit are at the lowest for generations as a % of the working population, how does that stack up with immigrants coming here to just claim benefits, given that there are at least 1,500,000 of them according to the government? Even more according to Nobby. Wass fink? |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2018 7:00:35 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2018 7:01:56 GMT
I've no idea how many illegal immigrants there are in the UK. and illegal immigrants are just that, illegal immigrants. Doesn't matter if they come from inside or outside the EU. If they are illegal, they are illegal ! Not trying to be a dick, but you are ok with legal immigration but want an end to illegal immigration but you don't know how many there are? How will leaving the EU end illegal immigration? Or do you want an end to all immigration? Yep Hugo, you are being a bit of a dick (no offence intended). First, you have to define 'legal immigration'. At the moment, we have free movement of people from within the EU. This means we have to let everyone in from the EU, whether they have needed skills or not. Whether they are convicted rapists, murders, or not. Whether they are street beggars, or not. Whether they have a job to go to, or not etc etc. Currently, this is what called be termed 'legal immigration'. Basically, if you are from within the EU, no matter what your circumstances, you can come in. If you are from outside the EU, and you have needed skills, then you have to jump through hoops to get in. In a way, this is a form of discrimination. Nobody is against immigration, but it has to be done right. The mass immigration into the UK over the last 10 years has placed huge strains on various public services. Schools, GP's and the NHS are just a few of the prime examples, and the rising cost of housing can in many ways be attributable to the influx of people. It's supply and demand. I think anyone trying to deny this are just burrowing their heads in the sand and not facing up to reality. Earlier in the thread, Oldie was talking about the people in Stockton-on-Tees (or wherever it was). He suggested that these people were a bit thick, and that the EU didn't really affect them, so he couldn't understand why they were voting to leave. The reality is that the immigration policies of the EU HAS affected those people. They find it difficult to get their kids places in schools. They see their GP's overwhelmed with patients and so they have problems getting appointments. The lower paid see wages being driven down as workers from the EU are prepared to work for even lower wages. They see house prices and rents being driven up because of the increased demand. They see the poorer areas of their cities being turned in ghettos. Oh yes, the people from Stockton-on-Tees see the real effects of immigration. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2018 7:08:02 GMT
Not trying to be a dick, but you are ok with legal immigration but want an end to illegal immigration but you don't know how many there are? How will leaving the EU end illegal immigration? Or do you want an end to all immigration? Oh Hugo, you cad sir, stating the obvious. But as Nobby demands, lets stick to the assertions. So if the immigration numbers are understated, and the numbers claiming benefit are at the lowest for generations as a % of the working population, how does that stack up with immigrants coming here to just claim benefits, given that there are at least 1,500,000 of them according to the government? Even more according to Nobby. Wass fink? Yes, the immigration numbers are understated as nobody knows the amount of illegal immigrants coming in. Is that difficult to understand? What do you mean by 'benefits' Oldie? You seem to be trying to simplify it by referring to 'benefits' as just unemployment benefit. Are you aware of the long list of 'benefits' that are available? |
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Aug 2, 2018 7:24:56 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2018 7:27:02 GMT
Nobby
Your comprehension skills have failed you.
Earlier in the thread, Oldie was talking about the people in Stockton-on-Tees (or wherever it was). He suggested that these people were a bit thick, and that the EU didn't really affect them, so he couldn't understand why they were voting to leave.
That's not what I said at all.
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Post by stuart1974 on Aug 2, 2018 7:32:03 GMT
My sister in law is concerned (worried would be probably too strong at this stage). Not so much about quality, although controls need to be in place, but over supply and costs. She was a Type 1 diabetic for 40 years until a successful transplant, is a pharmacist and voted Leave. Stuart - The point Oldie is missing is that to sell any goods into any market, you have to meet the standards of that market. Therefore, any insulin produced by the US, China, India, Brazil or the Ukraine has to meet the same standards as the insulin produced in Denmark or Switzerland! The UK standards are the exact same standards as those in the EU, and they will still be the same after Brexit. As for supply and costs, I really don't think there will be a problem there. Supply? If countries in the EU decide not to supply the UK with insulin, then I am certain that the countries outside the EU will only be too happy to trade it with the UK. No International supplier will turn down a potential customer. As for costs, well, instead of being hamstrung by being dependent on only suppliers in the EU, we will now be able to go onto the world stage, and negotiate a cheaper deal as various countries will be in competition with each other. Competition brings down prices and can be a good thing for the customer. Not sure I share your faith in the market, things are cheaper for a reason, that could just be bulk orders, competition or cheaper labour and materials. As we will have a large order then any supplier would have to ramp up production with its inherent costs in additional staff (trained to the right standards) and equipment (not cheap either). Long term it should be okay but unlike other goods where a short period without is of little consequence we have to ensure continuity of supply. Again, we are back to making a decision without knowing the full facts. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2018 7:34:05 GMT
Oh Hugo, you cad sir, stating the obvious. But as Nobby demands, lets stick to the assertions. So if the immigration numbers are understated, and the numbers claiming benefit are at the lowest for generations as a % of the working population, how does that stack up with immigrants coming here to just claim benefits, given that there are at least 1,500,000 of them according to the government? Even more according to Nobby. Wass fink? Yes, the immigration numbers are understated as nobody knows the amount of illegal immigrants coming in. Is that difficult to understand? What do you mean by 'benefits' Oldie? You seem to be trying to simplify it by referring to 'benefits' as just unemployment benefit. Are you aware of the long list of 'benefits' that are available? Yes I do understand Nobby. But your assertion cannot be mathematically correct. If we have had "mass" immigration and the number of people employed in the UK is at its highest level since records began, then there is no logic to claim that immigrants came here to claim benefits. However if you are talking about benefits that can be claimed whilst in work, then yes immigrants here legally and paying tax and NI would be eligible. That such benefits are necessary is due to the income distribution problem we have in the UK which I referred to in my post (which you misquoted). That need has nothing to do with the impact of immigration |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2018 7:36:27 GMT
Stuart - The point Oldie is missing is that to sell any goods into any market, you have to meet the standards of that market. Therefore, any insulin produced by the US, China, India, Brazil or the Ukraine has to meet the same standards as the insulin produced in Denmark or Switzerland! The UK standards are the exact same standards as those in the EU, and they will still be the same after Brexit. As for supply and costs, I really don't think there will be a problem there. Supply? If countries in the EU decide not to supply the UK with insulin, then I am certain that the countries outside the EU will only be too happy to trade it with the UK. No International supplier will turn down a potential customer. As for costs, well, instead of being hamstrung by being dependent on only suppliers in the EU, we will now be able to go onto the world stage, and negotiate a cheaper deal as various countries will be in competition with each other. Competition brings down prices and can be a good thing for the customer. Not sure I share your faith in the market, things are cheaper for a reason, that could just be bulk orders, competition or cheaper labour and materials. As we will have a large order then any supplier would have to ramp up production with its inherent costs in additional staff (trained to the right standards) and equipment (not cheap either). Long term it should be okay but unlike other goods where a short period without is of little consequence we have to ensure continuity of supply. Again, we are back to making a decision without knowing the full facts. Exactly |
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Post by stuart1974 on Aug 2, 2018 7:36:58 GMT
FFS Hugo. There were lies spouted by both sides. If you keep harping on about this one thing you just deflect from the debate. This was one perceived lie from the Leave group. What about the multitude of lies given out by the government, the CBI, the IMF, the EU etc etc ! You cannot change what happened. Instead, you should be trying to focus on the future. I'm not the one harping on about anything!! People keep saying that Remain are now lying and scaremongering (they are) and I'm simply pointing out what you have. BOTH SIDES are lying bastards! A General Election is held every 4-5 years with local elections inbetween, so we can show our displeasure and elect a different set of liars. There is no going back if we voted under the wrong assumptions (for either side). This is different, it is more like a slick salesman selling us PPI, except there is no Ombudsman to give us any compensation. Even Michael Gove has distanced himself now. |
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