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Post by toddy1953 on Sept 26, 2018 11:34:39 GMT
But what would promotion have actually achieved, a dreadful season watching us getting trashed most weeks in the Championship, I sense/fear we've reached our ceiling now until someone spends millions building a new stadium/training complex and increasing the playing budget. How can you know what would have happened. We survived on much less at Twerton and thrived for a few seasons in the second tier. The hope is that success breeds success, but we won't know if that's true unless we have some. I think we would have had an extra £6m in revenue plus Wembley revenue. Possibly would have got trounced every week but it could have paid for a training ground for DC
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Post by wertongas on Sept 26, 2018 11:43:24 GMT
Of course the real owners of this club are not Wael and family but the supporters if it wasn't for us paying admission fees and using the bars and food outlets etc the club would not exist. I get fed with people referring to the AQ as the owners, admittedly they did pay off the Wonga loan , but money paid for the colony field and new pitch has been set against our ever growing debt which is covered by income from us. You also need to remember that Wael said that the reason why he put a charge on the stadium was so the family could get their money back if needed (which would mean selling the stadium). Most of the recent improvements to the stadium have come from sponsorship from companies that are supporters of Rovers. The family do not have the money to develop the colony field or do any major development of the stadium and have to rely on us to keep the club going as does DC with his players budget, though admittedly he has been able to bring in new players through transfer fee income. We should never forget that we are the true owners of this club and have the right to express our views to the owners on its future and be informed of the clubs intentions. So who do you think is making up the short fall of several million pounds each season? who ever the family are borrowing the money from
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Post by dinsdale on Sept 26, 2018 11:57:42 GMT
Have read the numerous threads on here which always appears to degenerate into tit for tat arguments about our owners and whether or not there are realistic plans or a vision, whether their heart is in it, whether they should be gifting money to the club etc etc Much of these debates seem to stem from people's expectations of what a football club owner should or shouldn't do and therefore rather than argue amongst ourselves and call each other names, I thought it might be wise to understand where each of us is coming from with regards to a football club ownership. We can at least understand people's motivation and perspectives before falling back to the tit for tat arguments! So what is your expectations of a football club owner (could be any club)? For me I have simple views: 1. Talk to the fan base on a regular basis (but only on important topics when there is something to communicate). 2. Make the maximum available budget available each year to the manager for recruitment based upon the rules in place 3. Invest in improving the facilities of the club on a reasonable commercial basis (i.e I do not expect owners to gift or write off money they loan to the club but that if the loan and charge interest then it is at a reasonable level and they have a right to protect themselves on the loans they make 4 Support the development of the club through improving the infrastructure and operations 5. Support the manager by putting in place the best staff support around him based upon what he needs and requests 6. Invest in youth teams / development to support throughput into first team squad and create assets that can either mitigate the need for transfers or can generate transfer income in the long term 7. Involve the fanbase as far as possible in major decisions such as ground redevelopment or improvements and be transparent as far as reasonable on them 8. Continually seek to improve the customers experience through improving offers, the match day and non match day opportunities etc 9. Charge reasonable prices and explain when prices change why they have and what's influenced it 10. Make good commercial decisions that put the clubs interest at the forefront and benefits the club in the maximum way possible Based upon the above my view of our current owners is that they are doing OK. There are some areas they could be better in and they could take the opportunity more to bring the fans along with them and involve the fans a bit more and communicate a bit more (e.g they possibly would get less criticism about the training ground if people new at a summary level why it is taking the time it is taking or where in the process they were - be a little bit more transparent without breaking commercial leverage or non disclosure agreements and re the temporary stands, they sought feedback on - the fans could have stand a) which would cost £x amount or stand b) that would cost £y amount but if you go for a)then ticket prices will be whatever, but if you go for b) then ticket prices will have to increase to whatever to make it commercially viable. Fan representatives you decide which option we select and build.) But I don't believe that they should get as much stick as they currently do. However, that's my view and not the debating point. My interest is as I said, what do people expect from football club ownership? (Not necessarily ours but owners in general)? They don’t communicate with us about anything and rather then make us more sustainable have increased our annual losses to such heights that our very future is uncertain.
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Post by daniel300380 on Sept 26, 2018 12:09:44 GMT
Have read the numerous threads on here which always appears to degenerate into tit for tat arguments about our owners and whether or not there are realistic plans or a vision, whether their heart is in it, whether they should be gifting money to the club etc etc Much of these debates seem to stem from people's expectations of what a football club owner should or shouldn't do and therefore rather than argue amongst ourselves and call each other names, I thought it might be wise to understand where each of us is coming from with regards to a football club ownership. We can at least understand people's motivation and perspectives before falling back to the tit for tat arguments! So what is your expectations of a football club owner (could be any club)? For me I have simple views: 1. Talk to the fan base on a regular basis (but only on important topics when there is something to communicate). 2. Make the maximum available budget available each year to the manager for recruitment based upon the rules in place 3. Invest in improving the facilities of the club on a reasonable commercial basis (i.e I do not expect owners to gift or write off money they loan to the club but that if the loan and charge interest then it is at a reasonable level and they have a right to protect themselves on the loans they make 4 Support the development of the club through improving the infrastructure and operations 5. Support the manager by putting in place the best staff support around him based upon what he needs and requests 6. Invest in youth teams / development to support throughput into first team squad and create assets that can either mitigate the need for transfers or can generate transfer income in the long term 7. Involve the fanbase as far as possible in major decisions such as ground redevelopment or improvements and be transparent as far as reasonable on them 8. Continually seek to improve the customers experience through improving offers, the match day and non match day opportunities etc 9. Charge reasonable prices and explain when prices change why they have and what's influenced it 10. Make good commercial decisions that put the clubs interest at the forefront and benefits the club in the maximum way possible Based upon the above my view of our current owners is that they are doing OK. There are some areas they could be better in and they could take the opportunity more to bring the fans along with them and involve the fans a bit more and communicate a bit more (e.g they possibly would get less criticism about the training ground if people new at a summary level why it is taking the time it is taking or where in the process they were - be a little bit more transparent without breaking commercial leverage or non disclosure agreements and re the temporary stands, they sought feedback on - the fans could have stand a) which would cost £x amount or stand b) that would cost £y amount but if you go for a)then ticket prices will be whatever, but if you go for b) then ticket prices will have to increase to whatever to make it commercially viable. Fan representatives you decide which option we select and build.) But I don't believe that they should get as much stick as they currently do. However, that's my view and not the debating point. My interest is as I said, what do people expect from football club ownership? (Not necessarily ours but owners in general)? They don’t communicate with us about anything and rather then make us more sustainable have increased our annual losses to such heights that our very future is uncertain. So you know how much money the 10 new partners have put into the club through sponsorship etc?? You know how much more money the new bars etc will generate? You have seen detailed accounts, since the changes and since we signed better sponsorship deals?? The last accounts we lost more than normal, because we wrote off a million to do with Uwe. I love how some fans on here moan that DC is not being backed. Then others moan that we are losing more money than ever.
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Post by peterparker on Sept 26, 2018 12:16:55 GMT
Have read the numerous threads on here which always appears to degenerate into tit for tat arguments about our owners and whether or not there are realistic plans or a vision, whether their heart is in it, whether they should be gifting money to the club etc etc Much of these debates seem to stem from people's expectations of what a football club owner should or shouldn't do and therefore rather than argue amongst ourselves and call each other names, I thought it might be wise to understand where each of us is coming from with regards to a football club ownership. We can at least understand people's motivation and perspectives before falling back to the tit for tat arguments! So what is your expectations of a football club owner (could be any club)? For me I have simple views: 1. Talk to the fan base on a regular basis (but only on important topics when there is something to communicate). 2. Make the maximum available budget available each year to the manager for recruitment based upon the rules in place 3. Invest in improving the facilities of the club on a reasonable commercial basis (i.e I do not expect owners to gift or write off money they loan to the club but that if the loan and charge interest then it is at a reasonable level and they have a right to protect themselves on the loans they make 4 Support the development of the club through improving the infrastructure and operations 5. Support the manager by putting in place the best staff support around him based upon what he needs and requests 6. Invest in youth teams / development to support throughput into first team squad and create assets that can either mitigate the need for transfers or can generate transfer income in the long term 7. Involve the fanbase as far as possible in major decisions such as ground redevelopment or improvements and be transparent as far as reasonable on them 8. Continually seek to improve the customers experience through improving offers, the match day and non match day opportunities etc 9. Charge reasonable prices and explain when prices change why they have and what's influenced it 10. Make good commercial decisions that put the clubs interest at the forefront and benefits the club in the maximum way possible Based upon the above my view of our current owners is that they are doing OK. There are some areas they could be better in and they could take the opportunity more to bring the fans along with them and involve the fans a bit more and communicate a bit more (e.g they possibly would get less criticism about the training ground if people new at a summary level why it is taking the time it is taking or where in the process they were - be a little bit more transparent without breaking commercial leverage or non disclosure agreements and re the temporary stands, they sought feedback on - the fans could have stand a) which would cost £x amount or stand b) that would cost £y amount but if you go for a)then ticket prices will be whatever, but if you go for b) then ticket prices will have to increase to whatever to make it commercially viable. Fan representatives you decide which option we select and build.) But I don't believe that they should get as much stick as they currently do. However, that's my view and not the debating point. My interest is as I said, what do people expect from football club ownership? (Not necessarily ours but owners in general)? They don’t communicate with us about anything and rather then make us more sustainable have increased our annual losses to such heights that our very future is uncertain. Is it anymore uncertain then ever?
it's only uncertain if Dwane decide they want to sell the stadium to recover their money, other wise they will have to continue to fund the club or sell it and come to some agreement over the debt
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Post by o2o2bo2ba on Sept 26, 2018 13:24:06 GMT
Suffering has been stronger than all other teaching, and has taught me to understand what your heart used to be
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2018 13:42:19 GMT
Of course the real owners of this club are not Wael and family but the supporters if it wasn't for us paying admission fees and using the bars and food outlets etc the club would not exist. I get fed with people referring to the AQ as the owners, admittedly they did pay off the Wonga loan , but money paid for the colony field and new pitch has been set against our ever growing debt which is covered by income from us. You also need to remember that Wael said that the reason why he put a charge on the stadium was so the family could get their money back if needed (which would mean selling the stadium). Most of the recent improvements to the stadium have come from sponsorship from companies that are supporters of Rovers. The family do not have the money to develop the colony field or do any major development of the stadium and have to rely on us to keep the club going as does DC with his players budget, though admittedly he has been able to bring in new players through transfer fee income. We should never forget that we are the true owners of this club and have the right to express our views to the owners on its future and be informed of the clubs intentions. Thanks for your point of view but there’s one thing I would question. With the exception of those who are shareholders, do we the fans own the club? We are the users and customers and heartbeat but the club theoretically could exist with no fans with the owners funding everything?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2018 13:50:44 GMT
Of course the real owners of this club are not Wael and family but the supporters if it wasn't for us paying admission fees and using the bars and food outlets etc the club would not exist. I get fed with people referring to the AQ as the owners, admittedly they did pay off the Wonga loan , but money paid for the colony field and new pitch has been set against our ever growing debt which is covered by income from us. You also need to remember that Wael said that the reason why he put a charge on the stadium was so the family could get their money back if needed (which would mean selling the stadium). Most of the recent improvements to the stadium have come from sponsorship from companies that are supporters of Rovers. The family do not have the money to develop the colony field or do any major development of the stadium and have to rely on us to keep the club going as does DC with his players budget, though admittedly he has been able to bring in new players through transfer fee income. We should never forget that we are the true owners of this club and have the right to express our views to the owners on its future and be informed of the clubs intentions. Thanks for your point of view but there’s one thing I would question. With the exception of those who are shareholders, do we the fans own the club? We are the users and customers and heartbeat but the club theoretically could exist with no fans with the owners funding everything? You are being very polite Bluestick, given some of the drivel written in response to you OP
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Post by wertongas on Sept 26, 2018 14:23:12 GMT
Thanks for your point of view but there’s one thing I would question. With the exception of those who are shareholders, do we the fans own the club? We are the users and customers and heartbeat but the club theoretically could exist with no fans with the owners funding everything? You are being very polite Bluestick, given some of the drivel written in response to you OP I suppose some clubs could survive with out their supporters but I can't imagine the players would hang around to long playing in empty stadiums. It would be nice if the fans were allowed more shares. look at Exeter city I know they are in a lower division but fan power, through their supporters trust has bought the club a much improved stadium. unfortunately the debt being built up at this club by the family is making it more difficult to progress without a major takeover.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2018 14:45:22 GMT
Thanks for your point of view but there’s one thing I would question. With the exception of those who are shareholders, do we the fans own the club? We are the users and customers and heartbeat but the club theoretically could exist with no fans with the owners funding everything? You are being very polite Bluestick, given some of the drivel written in response to you OP Well I appreciate your drivel Oldie, even if others don't!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2018 16:25:19 GMT
You are being very polite Bluestick, given some of the drivel written in response to you OP I suppose some clubs could survive with out their supporters but I can't imagine the players would hang around to long playing in empty stadiums. It would be nice if the fans were allowed more shares. look at Exeter city I know they are in a lower division but fan power, through their supporters trust has bought the club a much improved stadium. unfortunately the debt being built up at this club by the family is making it more difficult to progress without a major takeover. As a fan you had the opportunity to own 28% of the club 15 years ago.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2018 17:04:49 GMT
I suppose some clubs could survive with out their supporters but I can't imagine the players would hang around to long playing in empty stadiums. It would be nice if the fans were allowed more shares. look at Exeter city I know they are in a lower division but fan power, through their supporters trust has bought the club a much improved stadium. unfortunately the debt being built up at this club by the family is making it more difficult to progress without a major takeover. As a fan you had the opportunity to own 28% of the club 15 years ago. Sadly you are correct Oldie and that once in a lifetime chance only came around because the board at the time was unwilling to invest further funds into the club. The only chance of it happening again would be if like Exeter the club went into Administraion and we don’t want that to happen because unlike Exeter City Council I don’t think Bristol City Council would take over ownership of the stadium and save it from developers.
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Post by chilly1883 on Sept 26, 2018 17:19:57 GMT
Mate without being disrespectful, what is the point of a comment like that? Adds absolutely nothing and doesn’t make you look smart or funny. I’ve asked what your expectations of a football owner is - not whether you like what our current or previous owners have / haven’t done. Nor have I asked if you agree with my view or not - your entitled to your own view. I’m just interested in what makes people think the way they do and in my opinion that is driven by what your expectations are of what a football club owner should do irrespective of the club they own. Now if you can’t answer that then fair enough but don’t derail a thread because you can’t or don’t want to. Read and move on..... The board came in with setting expectations saying Rovers need a new stadium and then looked at a training facility. My expectation of the current lot is very low as they show no intention of building either. The UWE deal wasn't right, fair enough, over a year on we are yet to see anything from the board. The Training ground, they own the ground, so what are they waiting for? I expect they have no money to invest in Bristol Rovers training ground or like the UWE wanted a cheaper deal, a £10M build for £2M. I am not content with continuing to watch Rovers play in front of a handful of tents. I am not content with us selling our best players every window. I think there is too much hiding from the truth and a fear to admit they cant meet fans ambitions and it is playing staff. There is little respect being shown to us as fans right now, we have a board that don't speak to us and when they do it carries next to no weight. For football club that supposedly has a lot going on, there is nothing to show from it. TG even if he did put the sausage roll prices up, he appears to be the only one with presence and making things happen. My interest and wanting to spend money on season tickets and going away is beginning to tire, on Saturday i could pursue other interests. After 20 years i wouldn't feel too guilty either. I would expect a mission statement of sorts, what they want to achieve and have it communicated with the fans. But honest communication not bits and pieces, vague mixed messages. I would then at the end of the season like a report, what they did and what they couldnt but how they could put that right, thank the fans for their continued support. Here here👍
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Post by beaver132 on Sept 26, 2018 18:51:52 GMT
First and foremost I would expect any owner to secure the medium term future of the club, and ha a workable realistic plan for the long term future. This is of course also in the medium to long term interests of the owners themselves. There is no point having to have a fire sale, where everyone knows you have to get rid, because the price goes through the floor.
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Post by aghast on Sept 26, 2018 21:31:10 GMT
That time was badly wasted wasn't it. To think, the squad that finished 10th in the first season in Div. 1.....if three or four quality signings were made we would probably have finished in the top six, with the possibility of promotion. I know this is all conjecture, but.............. But what would promotion have actually achieved, a dreadful season watching us getting trashed most weeks in the Championship, I sense/fear we've reached our ceiling now until someone spends millions building a new stadium/training complex and increasing the playing budget. I have wondered a few times about how and why we lost that momentum. We would probably have had a terrible time in the Championship. Perhaps staying up first season and then relegation afterwards, but from a fan viewpoint, it would have been a great ride. It would also have generated a lot of money in increased attendances and broadcaster payments. But my opinion is that the momentum was deliberately nipped in the bud. News on the training ground and stadium dried up. Communications from the owners stopped. The budget, if DC is to be believed, was capped. Why they did what I am suggesting is not clear. Perhaps they felt the cost of Championship relegation would harm the club in the long term. Perhaps they felt they wanted to get a new stadium etc. in place before promotion. Perhaps they realised then that they wanted to sell up and get out, and a promising L1 club on a modest budget is more attractive than a poor Championship side with releagation looming and a huge wage bill. Who knows? Certainly not me. But I think the way we were going under DC, with a reasonable investment, would have seen us back in the Championship at last. That all changed after the first season back in L1, and I think it was a decision from the owners to slow it down.
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Post by daniel300380 on Sept 26, 2018 21:48:29 GMT
But what would promotion have actually achieved, a dreadful season watching us getting trashed most weeks in the Championship, I sense/fear we've reached our ceiling now until someone spends millions building a new stadium/training complex and increasing the playing budget. I have wondered a few times about how and why we lost that momentum. We would probably have had a terrible time in the Championship. Perhaps staying up first season and then relegation afterwards, but from a fan viewpoint, it would have been a great ride. It would also have generated a lot of money in increased attendances and broadcaster payments. But my opinion is that the momentum was deliberately nipped in the bud. News on the training ground and stadium dried up. Communications from the owners stopped. The budget, if DC is to be believed, was capped. Why they did what I am suggesting is not clear. Perhaps they felt the cost of Championship relegation would harm the club in the long term. Perhaps they felt they wanted to get a new stadium etc. in place before promotion. Perhaps they realised then that they wanted to sell up and get out, and a promising L1 club on a modest budget is more attractive than a poor Championship side with releagation looming and a huge wage bill. Who knows? Certainly not me. But I think the way we were going under DC, with a reasonable investment, would have seen us back in the Championship at last. That all changed after the first season back in L1, and I think it was a decision from the owners to slow it down. The playing budget went up 40% in the last published accounts didn't it?? We have already been told that our SCMP amount should go up again, due to the new sponsors and ground changes. These changes should come into play, in the January window.
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Post by althepirate on Sept 26, 2018 21:51:33 GMT
Well like most things there are two ways of looking at it. One is the family want out and looking for a buyer and the other is they are making steady, patient investment behind the scenes for the long term future of the club, avoiding overtrading and a boom and bust mentality. In many ways Lansdown is adopting the same approach to getting to the Prem although they are years ahead of us.
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Post by aghast on Sept 26, 2018 22:00:15 GMT
I have wondered a few times about how and why we lost that momentum. We would probably have had a terrible time in the Championship. Perhaps staying up first season and then relegation afterwards, but from a fan viewpoint, it would have been a great ride. It would also have generated a lot of money in increased attendances and broadcaster payments. But my opinion is that the momentum was deliberately nipped in the bud. News on the training ground and stadium dried up. Communications from the owners stopped. The budget, if DC is to be believed, was capped. Why they did what I am suggesting is not clear. Perhaps they felt the cost of Championship relegation would harm the club in the long term. Perhaps they felt they wanted to get a new stadium etc. in place before promotion. Perhaps they realised then that they wanted to sell up and get out, and a promising L1 club on a modest budget is more attractive than a poor Championship side with releagation looming and a huge wage bill. Who knows? Certainly not me. But I think the way we were going under DC, with a reasonable investment, would have seen us back in the Championship at last. That all changed after the first season back in L1, and I think it was a decision from the owners to slow it down. The playing budget went up 40% in the last published accounts didn't it?? We have already been told that our SCMP amount should go up again, due to the new sponsors and ground changes. These changes should come into play, in the January window. I didn't know it went up by 40%. Is that really true? If so, what is DC moaning about? Unless everyone else's budget went up by 60%.
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Post by markczgas on Sept 26, 2018 22:19:18 GMT
Of course the real owners of this club are not Wael and family but the supporters if it wasn't for us paying admission fees and using the bars and food outlets etc the club would not exist. I get fed with people referring to the AQ as the owners, admittedly they did pay off the Wonga loan , but money paid for the colony field and new pitch has been set against our ever growing debt which is covered by income from us. You also need to remember that Wael said that the reason why he put a charge on the stadium was so the family could get their money back if needed (which would mean selling the stadium). Most of the recent improvements to the stadium have come from sponsorship from companies that are supporters of Rovers. The family do not have the money to develop the colony field or do any major development of the stadium and have to rely on us to keep the club going as does DC with his players budget, though admittedly he has been able to bring in new players through transfer fee income. We should never forget that we are the true owners of this club and have the right to express our views to the owners on its future and be informed of the clubs intentions. Thanks for your point of view but there’s one thing I would question. With the exception of those who are shareholders, do we the fans own the club? We are the users and customers and heartbeat but the club theoretically could exist with no fans with the owners funding everything? Can you give an example of another club that operate like that ?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2018 23:04:59 GMT
Thanks for your point of view but there’s one thing I would question. With the exception of those who are shareholders, do we the fans own the club? We are the users and customers and heartbeat but the club theoretically could exist with no fans with the owners funding everything? Can you give an example of another club that operate like that ? Hi Mark, not sure if that’s aimed at me? If so then I may be wrong but I believe Fleetwoods owner relocated his business to operate out of the stadium offices so that they could incorporate business rental into the SCMP calculations and accounts, Northampton Council signed off a deal that effectively gifted land and wrote off their outstanding loan repayments due to bare minimum but secured the sizeable debt they were due against the stadium itself to avoid the club going bust.... 2 that come to mind but there could be more. Likewise I could be wrong and have completely the wrong end of the stick! Additionally a report was produced recently that basically said that due to the size of TV money, clubs in the higher tier(s) are no longer reliant on ticket sales to exist or operate. In reality no club does actually operate that way but theoretically they could.
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