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Post by stuart1974 on Feb 18, 2019 12:05:31 GMT
Fair enough, I just take a slightly different view. Not for liberal reasons, but practicality and rule of law. Leaving her specific case out of this, what should happen to those who left to fight and are captured? Capture by who as there are 2 very different answers , if caught by the country they are in then they should be tried under those laws, with no intervention from anyone outside that country, it does grate when someone get jailed in another country then demands help from the uk ,if your stupid enough to break another countries laws then you should be left ,no excuses as if you visit another country you should take time to look at the big no no's over there If caught by us or the yanks then the get bought back spoken to by a very nice person from our security forces then either let go(this is the preferred option it seems) ,or jailed on a very light sentence with unenforceable parole conditions. hundreds have come back only 80 or so jailed. not aimed at anyone but can people not see why so many people are opposed to our very cushy legal system. Once you renounce your uk citizenship that should be it you should be left to rot Had she been caught in Iraq I would agree but I think Syria is a special case due to the circumstances. Cushy is a subjective term. FWIW here is one person who did change. It can be done and I think worth reading. She is now helping. news.sky.com/story/former-is-bride-urges-uk-to-show-shamima-begum-mercy-11640932 |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2019 12:07:48 GMT
I wonder how much the UK government has spunked so far on this matter.
Interested to know if any petitions been set up yet to bring her ‘home’?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2019 12:12:21 GMT
Capture by who as there are 2 very different answers , if caught by the country they are in then they should be tried under those laws, with no intervention from anyone outside that country, it does grate when someone get jailed in another country then demands help from the uk ,if your stupid enough to break another countries laws then you should be left ,no excuses as if you visit another country you should take time to look at the big no no's over there If caught by us or the yanks then the get bought back spoken to by a very nice person from our security forces then either let go(this is the preferred option it seems) ,or jailed on a very light sentence with unenforceable parole conditions. hundreds have come back only 80 or so jailed. not aimed at anyone but can people not see why so many people are opposed to our very cushy legal system. Once you renounce your uk citizenship that should be it you should be left to rot Had she been caught in Iraq I would agree but I think Syria is a special case due to the circumstances. Cushy is a subjective term. FWIW here is one person who did change. It can be done and I think worth reading. She is now helping. news.sky.com/story/former-is-bride-urges-uk-to-show-shamima-begum-mercy-11640932Has her father been photographed burning the American flag though? |
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Post by stuart1974 on Feb 18, 2019 12:18:11 GMT
Has her father been photographed burning the American flag though? Does it matter? My dad has certain views I disagree with, should I be defined by him or by what I say and do? Not to the same extent of course, but should I or am I my own person? |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2019 13:00:08 GMT
At this point in time, regardless of her actions, she remains a UK citizen and is very much subject to our laws. We have, the UK, signed up to a treaty which makes it illegal to make our citizens stateless. She is subject to any law she has broken within borders of any state she has broken. My understanding is that as that State has broken down to a large degree she is in a refugee camp. It is the authorities who run that camp who are also seeking help from the government's of nationals in that camp. Of course internal rules about how refugees are treated come into play, to complicate matters further. Before she does re-enter the UK does she not have to prove she is a UK Citizen and how does she go about that? I hope the onus is on her to prove she has a valid right to enter the country and not for the government (and therefore the taxpayer) to pay for any investigations or evidence to assist her entry She is in a refugee camp. There will be administrators there. They will have contacted her family. They will be able to supply a copy of her birth certificate. She will be on the government's border security database for having left the country on a certain date, with a valid British passport, the Turks will also have this information for when she entered Turkey. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2019 13:02:30 GMT
Has her father been photographed burning the American flag though? Does it matter? My dad has certain views I disagree with, should I be defined by him or by what I say and do? Not to the same extent of course, but should I or am I my own person? Precisely |
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Feb 18, 2019 13:07:05 GMT
Has her father been photographed burning the American flag though? Does it matter? My dad has certain views I disagree with, should I be defined by him or by what I say and do? Not to the same extent of course, but should I or am I my own person? It's totally relevant if you are looking at how someone can be reintegrated back into this country. Your family, friends and support base will have a massive impact on that. |
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Post by jaggas on Feb 18, 2019 13:10:36 GMT
Who is liable to pay for her journey back to the UK?
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Post by inee on Feb 18, 2019 13:16:59 GMT
At this point in time, regardless of her actions, she remains a UK citizen and is very much subject to our laws. We have, the UK, signed up to a treaty which makes it illegal to make our citizens stateless. She is subject to any law she has broken within borders of any state she has broken. My understanding is that as that State has broken down to a large degree she is in a refugee camp. It is the authorities who run that camp who are also seeking help from the government's of nationals in that camp. Of course internal rules about how refugees are treated come into play, to complicate matters further. Before she does re-enter the UK does she not have to prove she is a UK Citizen and how does she go about that? I hope the onus is on her to prove she has a valid right to enter the country and not for the government (and therefore the taxpayer) to pay for any investigations or evidence to assist her entry Eric i seem to recall a law passed after WW!(nah i'm not that old) that went along the lines of a uk citizen doesn't need a passport to get into back the uk so looks like she will be allowed back, If memory serves it had to do with soldiers returning with no documentation and was extended to everyone who is british , but im sure theirs another piece of legislation whereby citizens can be denied entry to the uk temporarily if they are deemed a security threat ,As for proving her id yes but i think thats as simple as contacting the passport office for photo id . so in effect it will be the taxpayer who foots the bill for her id etc |
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Post by stuart1974 on Feb 18, 2019 13:17:31 GMT
Does it matter? My dad has certain views I disagree with, should I be defined by him or by what I say and do? Not to the same extent of course, but should I or am I my own person? It's totally relevant if you are looking at how someone can be reintegrated back into this country. Your family, friends and support base will have a massive impact on that. In terms of how, yes I agree. The question was can she and that is down to her. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2019 13:23:39 GMT
Has her father been photographed burning the American flag though? Does it matter? My dad has certain views I disagree with, should I be defined by him or by what I say and do? Not to the same extent of course, but should I or am I my own person? The 'reformed' female example you used has now settled in the US, just cant have seen this happening if her father was burning the American flag. But he wasn't, it was hypothetical.
How do we know Shamina Begum wasn't defined by her Father's views?
My point is, it's all very well putting up one article about someone who has 'reformed' saying it can be done. Far, far too many variables to compare these two cases and think everything can be rosy.
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Feb 18, 2019 13:25:24 GMT
It's totally relevant if you are looking at how someone can be reintegrated back into this country. Your family, friends and support base will have a massive impact on that. In terms of how, yes I agree. The question was can she and that is down to her. No man is an island. |
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Post by inee on Feb 18, 2019 13:26:02 GMT
Capture by who as there are 2 very different answers , if caught by the country they are in then they should be tried under those laws, with no intervention from anyone outside that country, it does grate when someone get jailed in another country then demands help from the uk ,if your stupid enough to break another countries laws then you should be left ,no excuses as if you visit another country you should take time to look at the big no no's over there If caught by us or the yanks then the get bought back spoken to by a very nice person from our security forces then either let go(this is the preferred option it seems) ,or jailed on a very light sentence with unenforceable parole conditions. hundreds have come back only 80 or so jailed. not aimed at anyone but can people not see why so many people are opposed to our very cushy legal system. Once you renounce your uk citizenship that should be it you should be left to rot Had she been caught in Iraq I would agree but I think Syria is a special case due to the circumstances. Cushy is a subjective term. FWIW here is one person who did change. It can be done and I think worth reading. She is now helping. news.sky.com/story/former-is-bride-urges-uk-to-show-shamima-begum-mercy-11640932I feel there are no special circumstances as even though she was in syria she aligned herself with isis, she has also said she is ok with beheading because it's ok under islamic law, she has also said she wants to come back because of our medical system, she appears to show no remorse. |
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Feb 18, 2019 13:28:50 GMT
I feel there are no special circumstances as even though she was in syria she aligned herself with isis, she has also said she is ok with beheading because it's ok under islamic law, she has also said she wants to come back because of our medical system, she appears to show no remorse. And that is the most worrying thing. She could (and should) have at least pretended to be sorry! The fact that even that seems beyond her leaves very little room for anyone to credibly defend her. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Feb 18, 2019 13:31:50 GMT
Does it matter? My dad has certain views I disagree with, should I be defined by him or by what I say and do? Not to the same extent of course, but should I or am I my own person? The 'reformed' female example you used has now settled in the US, just cant have seen this happening if her father was burning the American flag. But he wasn't, it was hypothetical.
How do we know Shamina Begum wasn't defined by her Father's views?
My point is, it's all very well putting up one article about someone who has 'reformed' saying it can be done. Far, far too many variables to compare these two cases and think everything can be rosy.
We are arguing about different things then. I was referring to whether people can change. The article was about someone who has, and yes different circumstances will make a difference. I also quoted someone involved in deradicalisation programmes in sn earlier post so not just one example. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2019 13:31:59 GMT
Does it matter? My dad has certain views I disagree with, should I be defined by him or by what I say and do? Not to the same extent of course, but should I or am I my own person? Precisely The family want to bring up the baby. Presumably if the girls father holds extremist Islamic views the authorities won't allow that to happen? It should be adopted with no opportunity for ever being reunited with its blood relatives if it is to have a chance of a decent life. Perhaps Madonna or Elton John would volunteer. Saves them buying any more from overseas. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2019 13:33:24 GMT
Who is liable to pay for her journey back to the UK? And also who is paying the families lawyer who is doing all the media interviews? I suspect we all know the answer to both😕 |
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Post by stuart1974 on Feb 18, 2019 13:35:21 GMT
I feel there are no special circumstances as even though she was in syria she aligned herself with isis, she has also said she is ok with beheading because it's ok under islamic law, she has also said she wants to come back because of our medical system, she appears to show no remorse. Special case in terms of no real functioning judiciary, you mentioned being tried in the country. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Feb 18, 2019 13:36:47 GMT
I feel there are no special circumstances as even though she was in syria she aligned herself with isis, she has also said she is ok with beheading because it's ok under islamic law, she has also said she wants to come back because of our medical system, she appears to show no remorse. And that is the most worrying thing. She could (and should) have at least pretended to be sorry! The fact that even that seems beyond her leaves very little room for anyone to credibly defend her. For the record I am not trying to defend her as my previous posts have stated. |
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Post by baggins on Feb 18, 2019 13:41:59 GMT
In terms of how, yes I agree. The question was can she and that is down to her. No man is an island. Not according to Simon & Garfunkel. |
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