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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2019 8:57:35 GMT
Not really a useful contribution to the debate William is it. I cannot really understand people like Eric and others who label people like myself leftie loonies when what we are doing is taking the very conservative view of upholding the laws on our statute book. These are the laws that our own Soveriegn Parliament has placed on that book and upheld by our independent judiciary. As a country, we are widely admired for how we do this even when there is a cost. Stranger still then that people on here who do not want to stick to our system of law and justice when adjudicating over this example of a UK citizen choosing to support an enemy of the state on foreign soil are acting exactly like idiotic extremists within Islam, who also advocate arresting and killing people without due process. Well put Oldie 🤝🤝
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2019 9:04:47 GMT
Probably Yes. Despite equality laws there is a lot of pressure for women not to be jailed in this country, especially if they have young children. I don't know what she will be charged with as how will we get evidence or witness statements on what she was up to whilst with ISIS? If she does get imprisoned I doubt it will be for long. Human Rights lawyers will help her keep the child. The roam free bit is interesting. If she has no convictions or serves a short sentence she will be free to do as she wishes. Surveillance would be the only option and this costs thousands per week and leaves security services in a very difficult position of having to decide which suspicious characters to monitor as they will have a limited resource. My prediction is that in a year or two you will see newspaper headlines showing her in her new life win new house, car and benefits pushing her kid along in a pushchair. Unless of course she gets given witness protection or media injunctions protecting her privacy. She'll get 10 years just for being a member of a proscribed organisation. She's already confessed do that. There will be more, but we are talking about if she makes her own way out, not us going into Syria do get her. As for human rights lawyers, I'm not sure they are as influential as they have been, PIL have seen to that. Regarding mothers, perhaps, I do know that my sister in law served time away from three under 10 despite committing no violent crime. I'll have a tenner that she gets nothing like ten years. There will be plenty of people backing her to be rehabilitated and spared jail plus she's already toning down her comments in interviews, in the first one she indicated she knew what she was getting into and it was everything she expected and even said seeing severed heads amongst daily rubbish did not phase her. The latest one is a bit different and indicates she is probably getting some advice.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2019 9:12:50 GMT
Got a spare room, Oldie? Drop her a line and offer to put her up. She can be reached on slaughterallinfidels@hotmail.com
Not really a useful contribution to the debate William is it. I cannot really understand people like Eric and others who label people like myself leftie loonies when what we are doing is taking the very conservative view of upholding the laws on our statute book. These are the laws that our own Soveriegn Parliament has placed on that book and upheld by our independent judiciary. As a country, we are widely admired for how we do this even when there is a cost. Stranger still then that people on here who do not want to stick to our system of law and justice when adjudicating over this example of a UK citizen choosing to support an enemy of the state on foreign soil are acting exactly like idiotic extremists within Islam, who also advocate arresting and killing people without due process. It would be beneficial for us if something did happen to her but I've already said what I expect to happen, that she will return, lots of bluster about facing justice but eventually getting none or limited jail time before commencing a new life on benefits. To compare people's anger at this individuals actions with those who actively join this evil terrorist organisation and enjoy cutting innocent people's heads off with a blunt knife is just embarrassing. I'm still waiting for an explanation as to why you chose to bring skin colour into the earlier argument and in direct response to my post. Unless there was a reason you've yet to provide I can only assume it was a deliberate attempt to paint someone as racist to help you take a moral high ground and "win" your argument.
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Post by stuart1974 on Feb 18, 2019 9:14:41 GMT
She'll get 10 years just for being a member of a proscribed organisation. She's already confessed do that. There will be more, but we are talking about if she makes her own way out, not us going into Syria do get her. As for human rights lawyers, I'm not sure they are as influential as they have been, PIL have seen to that. Regarding mothers, perhaps, I do know that my sister in law served time away from three under 10 despite committing no violent crime. I'll have a tenner that she gets nothing like ten years. There will be plenty of people backing her to be rehabilitated and spared jail plus she's already toning down her comments in interviews, in the first one she indicated she knew what she was getting into and it was everything she expected and even said seeing severed heads amongst daily rubbish did not phase her. The latest one is a bit different and indicates she is probably getting some advice. Fair enough, I just take a slightly different view. Not for liberal reasons, but practicality and rule of law. Leaving her specific case out of this, what should happen to those who left to fight and are captured?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2019 9:24:55 GMT
I'll have a tenner that she gets nothing like ten years. There will be plenty of people backing her to be rehabilitated and spared jail plus she's already toning down her comments in interviews, in the first one she indicated she knew what she was getting into and it was everything she expected and even said seeing severed heads amongst daily rubbish did not phase her. The latest one is a bit different and indicates she is probably getting some advice. Fair enough, I just take a slightly different view. Not for liberal reasons, but practicality and rule of law. Leaving her specific case out of this, what should happen to those who left to fight and are captured? I agree existing laws and process will need to be followed although it certainly leaves a sour taste. I have no faith that any true level of justice will end up being applied - we are far too lenient on criminals in this country and far too much time, money and effort is spent on the perpetrators of crime rather than protecting the innocent and law abiding majority. With UK Jihadists being captured or giving themselves up we should give no support to helping them return. The best action for us would be for them to be tried in Syria and subject to their version of suitable punishment. If they do end up being sent back to the UK or making their own way then we should be thinking of tougher sentencing - mandatory life sentences for joining groups like ISIS?
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Post by jaggas on Feb 18, 2019 9:29:07 GMT
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Post by stuart1974 on Feb 18, 2019 9:31:37 GMT
Fair enough, I just take a slightly different view. Not for liberal reasons, but practicality and rule of law. Leaving her specific case out of this, what should happen to those who left to fight and are captured? I agree existing laws and process will need to be followed although it certainly leaves a sour taste. I have no faith that any true level of justice will end up being applied - we are far too lenient on criminals in this country and far too much time, money and effort is spent on the perpetrators of crime rather than protecting the innocent and law abiding majority. With UK Jihadists being captured or giving themselves up we should give no support to helping them return. The best action for us would be for them to be tried in Syria and subject to their version of suitable punishment. If they do end up being sent back to the UK or making their own way then we should be thinking of tougher sentencing - mandatory life sentences for joining groups like ISIS? It seems we are not that far off on our views, we both want justice and stiffer sentences.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2019 9:46:47 GMT
This is a photo of her father. Is that confirmed? Worrying if true and adds more weight to neither the girl or her family being up to keep and raise the baby.
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Post by jaggas on Feb 18, 2019 10:12:07 GMT
Yes it is him definitely a wrong un who contributes nothing to British society.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2019 10:17:56 GMT
Yes it is him definitely a wrong un who contributes nothing to British society. Their lawyer wants the child brought up by the family away from extremist thinking etc.....!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2019 10:28:15 GMT
Not really a useful contribution to the debate William is it. I cannot really understand people like Eric and others who label people like myself leftie loonies when what we are doing is taking the very conservative view of upholding the laws on our statute book. These are the laws that our own Soveriegn Parliament has placed on that book and upheld by our independent judiciary. As a country, we are widely admired for how we do this even when there is a cost. Stranger still then that people on here who do not want to stick to our system of law and justice when adjudicating over this example of a UK citizen choosing to support an enemy of the state on foreign soil are acting exactly like idiotic extremists within Islam, who also advocate arresting and killing people without due process. It would be beneficial for us if something did happen to her but I've already said what I expect to happen, that she will return, lots of bluster about facing justice but eventually getting none or limited jail time before commencing a new life on benefits. To compare people's anger at this individuals actions with those who actively join this evil terrorist organisation and enjoy cutting innocent people's heads off with a blunt knife is just embarrassing. I'm still waiting for an explanation as to why you chose to bring skin colour into the earlier argument and in direct response to my post. Unless there was a reason you've yet to provide I can only assume it was a deliberate attempt to paint someone as racist to help you take a moral high ground and "win" your argument. On the contrary Eric, you can bluster as much as you like, but there are people on this thread who are advocating, openly, that she returns "In a body bag" That is exactly the style of justice practiced by extremists. There is no question that any of us feel comfortable with what she has done or that we feel great about what might happen if she does get back here. But surely you might agree that not adhering to due process is not constitutional and advocating circumventing it is a very dangerous precedent to take?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2019 10:46:27 GMT
It would be beneficial for us if something did happen to her but I've already said what I expect to happen, that she will return, lots of bluster about facing justice but eventually getting none or limited jail time before commencing a new life on benefits. To compare people's anger at this individuals actions with those who actively join this evil terrorist organisation and enjoy cutting innocent people's heads off with a blunt knife is just embarrassing. I'm still waiting for an explanation as to why you chose to bring skin colour into the earlier argument and in direct response to my post. Unless there was a reason you've yet to provide I can only assume it was a deliberate attempt to paint someone as racist to help you take a moral high ground and "win" your argument. On the contrary Eric, you can bluster as much as you like, but there are people on this thread who are advocating, openly, that she returns "In a body bag" That is exactly the style of justice practiced by extremists. There is no question that any of us feel comfortable with what she has done or that we feel great about what might happen if she does get back here. But surely you might agree that not adhering to due process is not constitutional and advocating circumventing it is a very dangerous precedent to take? I've already said I expect process to be followed if/when she returns - the problem is we are so weak on law and order in this country so the majority of UK citizens will rightly feel let down when we see her in a few years freely walking the streets and picking up benefits paid for by hard working taxpayers whilst she's been living the ISIS dream. I would be more than happy if she had died over there but that isn't the same as saying she should be captured and executed. Comparing angry words made here in the UK to extremists who actually join ISIS and carry out terrorist atrocities is absurd. I'm still waiting to know why you raised skin colour - won't bother to mention it again though and I accept it was just being used to smear a poster with opposite views. At least we know where we all stand.
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Post by inee on Feb 18, 2019 11:12:16 GMT
I'll have a tenner that she gets nothing like ten years. There will be plenty of people backing her to be rehabilitated and spared jail plus she's already toning down her comments in interviews, in the first one she indicated she knew what she was getting into and it was everything she expected and even said seeing severed heads amongst daily rubbish did not phase her. The latest one is a bit different and indicates she is probably getting some advice. Fair enough, I just take a slightly different view. Not for liberal reasons, but practicality and rule of law. Leaving her specific case out of this, what should happen to those who left to fight and are captured? Capture by who as there are 2 very different answers , if caught by the country they are in then they should be tried under those laws, with no intervention from anyone outside that country, it does grate when someone get jailed in another country then demands help from the uk ,if your stupid enough to break another countries laws then you should be left ,no excuses as if you visit another country you should take time to look at the big no no's over there If caught by us or the yanks then the get bought back spoken to by a very nice person from our security forces then either let go(this is the preferred option it seems) ,or jailed on a very light sentence with unenforceable parole conditions. hundreds have come back only 80 or so jailed. not aimed at anyone but can people not see why so many people are opposed to our very cushy legal system. Once you renounce your uk citizenship that should be it you should be left to rot
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Post by inee on Feb 18, 2019 11:16:53 GMT
It would be beneficial for us if something did happen to her but I've already said what I expect to happen, that she will return, lots of bluster about facing justice but eventually getting none or limited jail time before commencing a new life on benefits. To compare people's anger at this individuals actions with those who actively join this evil terrorist organisation and enjoy cutting innocent people's heads off with a blunt knife is just embarrassing. I'm still waiting for an explanation as to why you chose to bring skin colour into the earlier argument and in direct response to my post. Unless there was a reason you've yet to provide I can only assume it was a deliberate attempt to paint someone as racist to help you take a moral high ground and "win" your argument. On the contrary Eric, you can bluster as much as you like, but there are people on this thread who are advocating, openly, that she returns "In a body bag" That is exactly the style of justice practiced by extremists. There is no question that any of us feel comfortable with what she has done or that we feel great about what might happen if she does get back here. But surely you might agree that not adhering to due process is not constitutional and advocating circumventing it is a very dangerous precedent to take? But surely once you leave this country and burn your passport then you are saying i no longer believe in the laws of the uk, and therefore be subject to the laws of wherever she is, remember she went voluntarily to help an organisation who had their own set of laws and was happy living under them but now she has to live a tad uncomfortably she want pity and to come back to the country she despises so much
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2019 11:21:33 GMT
Eric
"Ive already said I expect process to be followed if/when she returns - the problem is we are so weak on law and order in this country so the majority of UK citizens will rightly feel let down when we see her in a few years freely walking the streets and picking up benefits paid for by hard working taxpayers whilst she's been living the ISIS dream. I would be more than happy if she had died over there but that isn't the same as saying she should be captured and executed. Comparing angry words made here in the UK to extremists who actually join ISIS and carry out terrorist atrocities is absurd."
If we feel let down by the laws on the statute book then we vote for people or parties that will change them. It's quite simple really, if they don't win then all of us accept the result. That does not mean we should stop arguing for what we believe in or indeed campaigning for those beliefs. But to narrow down your beliefs to concentrate one single example of what frustrates you achieves nothing and opens you up to other interpretations. I suspect you feel, for example, that our benefits system is over generous and poorly administered. If that's right then there is a far bigger argument to make. As for comparing angry words...well where does all this kind of rhetoric lead and end. Are yellow vested demonstrators fighting with police acceptable? Is calling out people as traitors because they hold a (legal) differing viewpoint acceptable? Where does it end? I put it to you badly. This is exactly where totalitarianism starts, whether you are seen as right wing, left wing or a religious fundamentalist.
Finally I mentioned the colour of the guy who killed Jo Cox in response to your point that you would feel uncomfortable sitting next to a known terrorist or extremist. The point I am trying to make is that is a silly point because you could not possibly know. White, black, wearing a burka, pinstriped suit you cannot know. We would all feel uncomfortable sitting next to a terrorist or fundamentalist, but we will never know.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2019 11:30:45 GMT
On the contrary Eric, you can bluster as much as you like, but there are people on this thread who are advocating, openly, that she returns "In a body bag" That is exactly the style of justice practiced by extremists. There is no question that any of us feel comfortable with what she has done or that we feel great about what might happen if she does get back here. But surely you might agree that not adhering to due process is not constitutional and advocating circumventing it is a very dangerous precedent to take? But surely once you leave this country and burn your passport then you are saying i no longer believe in the laws of the uk, and therefore be subject to the laws of wherever she is, remember she went voluntarily to help an organisation who had their own set of laws and was happy living under them but now she has to live a tad uncomfortably she want pity and to come back to the country she despises so much At this point in time, regardless of her actions, she remains a UK citizen and is very much subject to our laws. We have, the UK, signed up to a treaty which makes it illegal to make our citizens stateless. She is subject to any law she has broken within borders of any state she has broken. My understanding is that as that State has broken down to a large degree she is in a refugee camp. It is the authorities who run that camp who are also seeking help from the government's of nationals in that camp. Of course internal rules about how refugees are treated come into play, to complicate matters further.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2019 11:30:56 GMT
Eric "Ive already said I expect process to be followed if/when she returns - the problem is we are so weak on law and order in this country so the majority of UK citizens will rightly feel let down when we see her in a few years freely walking the streets and picking up benefits paid for by hard working taxpayers whilst she's been living the ISIS dream. I would be more than happy if she had died over there but that isn't the same as saying she should be captured and executed. Comparing angry words made here in the UK to extremists who actually join ISIS and carry out terrorist atrocities is absurd." If we feel let down by the laws on the statute book then we vote for people or parties that will change them. It's quite simple really, if they don't win then all of us accept the result. That does not mean we should stop arguing for what we believe in or indeed campaigning for those beliefs. But to narrow down your beliefs to concentrate one single example of what frustrates you achieves nothing and opens you up to other interpretations. I suspect you feel, for example, that our benefits system is over generous and poorly administered. If that's right then there is a far bigger argument to make. As for comparing angry words...well where does all this kind of rhetoric lead and end. Are yellow vested demonstrators fighting with police acceptable? Is calling out people as traitors because they hold a (legal) differing viewpoint acceptable? Where does it end? I put it to you badly. This is exactly where totalitarianism starts, whether you are seen as right wing, left wing or a religious fundamentalist. Finally I mentioned the colour of the guy who killed Jo Cox in response to your point that you would feel uncomfortable sitting next to a known terrorist or extremist. The point I am trying to make is that is a silly point because you could not possibly know. White, black, wearing a burka, pinstriped suit you cannot know. We would all feel uncomfortable sitting next to a terrorist or fundamentalist, but we will never know. I give up. I said in my first post on this subject quite clearly what I personally would do if a person I RECOGNISED as being this ISIS girl was sat on the same public transport. I didn't say if someone identifiable as a Muslim by wearing a burka for example sat next to me - that would be a totally separate issue and making generalisations. You clearly are an intelligent person and I can't believe you can have misinterpreted my words in such a way that you felt the need to raise skin colour in response to my post which made me suspicious of your motives.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2019 11:34:17 GMT
Eric "Ive already said I expect process to be followed if/when she returns - the problem is we are so weak on law and order in this country so the majority of UK citizens will rightly feel let down when we see her in a few years freely walking the streets and picking up benefits paid for by hard working taxpayers whilst she's been living the ISIS dream. I would be more than happy if she had died over there but that isn't the same as saying she should be captured and executed. Comparing angry words made here in the UK to extremists who actually join ISIS and carry out terrorist atrocities is absurd." If we feel let down by the laws on the statute book then we vote for people or parties that will change them. It's quite simple really, if they don't win then all of us accept the result. That does not mean we should stop arguing for what we believe in or indeed campaigning for those beliefs. But to narrow down your beliefs to concentrate one single example of what frustrates you achieves nothing and opens you up to other interpretations. I suspect you feel, for example, that our benefits system is over generous and poorly administered. If that's right then there is a far bigger argument to make. As for comparing angry words...well where does all this kind of rhetoric lead and end. Are yellow vested demonstrators fighting with police acceptable? Is calling out people as traitors because they hold a (legal) differing viewpoint acceptable? Where does it end? I put it to you badly. This is exactly where totalitarianism starts, whether you are seen as right wing, left wing or a religious fundamentalist. Finally I mentioned the colour of the guy who killed Jo Cox in response to your point that you would feel uncomfortable sitting next to a known terrorist or extremist. The point I am trying to make is that is a silly point because you could not possibly know. White, black, wearing a burka, pinstriped suit you cannot know. We would all feel uncomfortable sitting next to a terrorist or fundamentalist, but we will never know. I give up. I said in my first post on this subject quite clearly what I personally would do if a person I RECOGNISED as being this ISIS girl was sat on the same public transport. I didn't say if someone identifiable as a Muslim by wearing a burka for example sat next to me - that would be a totally separate issue and making generalisations. You clearly are an intelligent person and I can't believe you can have misinterpreted my words in such a way that you felt the need to raise skin colour in response to my post which made me suspicious of your motives. We chucking petals at each other here. I meant no intent to accuse you of being a racist. Let's leave it there.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2019 11:34:44 GMT
But surely once you leave this country and burn your passport then you are saying i no longer believe in the laws of the uk, and therefore be subject to the laws of wherever she is, remember she went voluntarily to help an organisation who had their own set of laws and was happy living under them but now she has to live a tad uncomfortably she want pity and to come back to the country she despises so much At this point in time, regardless of her actions, she remains a UK citizen and is very much subject to our laws. We have, the UK, signed up to a treaty which makes it illegal to make our citizens stateless. She is subject to any law she has broken within borders of any state she has broken. My understanding is that as that State has broken down to a large degree she is in a refugee camp. It is the authorities who run that camp who are also seeking help from the government's of nationals in that camp. Of course internal rules about how refugees are treated come into play, to complicate matters further. Before she does re-enter the UK does she not have to prove she is a UK Citizen and how does she go about that? I hope the onus is on her to prove she has a valid right to enter the country and not for the government (and therefore the taxpayer) to pay for any investigations or evidence to assist her entry
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Post by jaggas on Feb 18, 2019 11:59:41 GMT
Yes it is him definitely a wrong un who contributes nothing to British society. Their lawyer wants the child brought up by the family away from extremist thinking etc.....! The family have been on the news, her sister is fully garbed up in oppressive muslim clothing the Father is a radical islamist who has indoctrinated his children and will no doubt force his backward views on the baby like he did his own babies..The family are islamic extremists and the girl just naturally progressed as she has been taught. As I have said in a previous post why not send the family out to be with their daughter they are all benefit scrounging wrong uns who cost the taxpayers hundreds of thousands of pounds and would not be missed.
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