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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2019 12:37:09 GMT
You mean, they've lost sight of what you think is in their best interests. They may not consider that, to be one and the same thing. They may not, naturally, but when you read stuff like the below it’s hard not to be sceptical as to whether they really understand or I am right in thinking that they have been seduced by straw men. Look at this report from Leigh which was is over joyed at having gone Tory and the people are talking of “seismic change”: www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/election-2019-50781738"I took an online survey and it did say to vote Labour, but I just couldn't do it," she said. "Jeremy Corbyn, I just don't like him. "I did like Boris before, but now he seems to be a bit of a buffoon. "Still, it's a big shock. The people of Leigh have always voted Labour. But they see market stalls and businesses closing down and perhaps they just trust Boris more with business." So she thinks Boris is a buffoon, an online survey indicates that Labour represent her but, the key part, businesses have been closing down under the Tory government and yet she thinks another 5 years of the Tories will change that? I’d love the BBC to go back in 5 years and see what’s changed in those people’s lives. You are confusing Johnson with the Tory party. He has only been PM for a few months. You have to give him some time to make a difference. Most of the last nine years he has been a backbench MP. Next, you think she should vote in a way indicated by an online survey? Really? Face the truth. In reality Labour were unelectable for a whole host of reasons. |
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Post by William Wilson on Dec 14, 2019 12:47:22 GMT
You mean, they've lost sight of what you think is in their best interests. They may not consider that, to be one and the same thing. They may not, naturally, but when you read stuff like the below it’s hard not to be sceptical as to whether they really understand or I am right in thinking that they have been seduced by straw men. Pretty much all of my family, friends and work colleagues are working class. I think they "understand" more than you give them credit for. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2019 12:50:11 GMT
The left still don't understand it. If Coca Cola invented a flavour no one wanted, they would scrap it and make a flavour they did. The left are saying the working class want the wrong things! This is the sort of arrogance you would have got from Corbyn and this Labour party if they had power. They think they know what's better for us than we do ourselves. They have committed the cardinal sin of NOT LISTENING and have paid the heavy price for it. They are still not listening have not learned anything from huge mistakes. So it's likely they won't have power for decades. The Tories do not have sole rights on lies either. The left constantly lie, the public are not naive and are not fooled. Can the left tell me how they can help society without power? As I’ve pointed out above, it’s not about doing whatever it takes to win power because the Greens could do that but it wouldn’t be who they are and it’s the same with Labour. Should they really turn into the Lib Dem’s just so they can compete? Their challenge is to soften, yes, but still not sell out their principles and leave the rest to convincing their traditional core vote that they are better off with them. Who knows, another 5 years of austerity and a bungled Brexit and the working class might literally be *begging* for a Labour government. Re: your last sentence, there was a comment that addressed this on Have I got news for you last night: “For someone who has prided himself on helping the worst off it’s ironic that Corbyn has f**ked them for another 5 years”  |
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Post by althepirate on Dec 14, 2019 12:51:41 GMT
We'll see how 'good' it gets. And how beneficial whatever shambles of leaving the EU this regime achieves will be. Before making flippant statements about using food banks, at least share your experiences of using them and the hardships associated with it. Then I'll share mine. You don't understand do you? My ref to foodbanks wasn't about the foodbanks themselves, but I would prefer them compared to Abotts crime ridden streets and I'll say it again yes I would. I also donate to foodbanks and spend one day every week helping families suffering hardship for free. |
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Post by althepirate on Dec 14, 2019 13:02:50 GMT
The left still don't understand it. If Coca Cola invented a flavour no one wanted, they would scrap it and make a flavour they did. The left are saying the working class want the wrong things! This is the sort of arrogance you would have got from Corbyn and this Labour party if they had power. They think they know what's better for us than we do ourselves. They have committed the cardinal sin of NOT LISTENING and have paid the heavy price for it. They are still not listening have not learned anything from huge mistakes. So it's likely they won't have power for decades. The Tories do not have sole rights on lies either. The left constantly lie, the public are not naive and are not fooled. Can the left tell me how they can help society without power? As I’ve pointed out above, it’s not about doing whatever it takes to win power because the Greens could do that but it wouldn’t be who they are and it’s the same with Labour. Should they really turn into the Lib Dem’s just so they can compete? Their challenge is to soften, yes, but still not sell out their principles and leave the rest to convincing their traditional core vote that they are better off with them. Who knows, another 5 years of austerity and a bungled Brexit and the working class might literally be *begging* for a Labour government. Re: your last sentence, there was a comment that addressed this on Have I got news for you last night: “For someone who has prided himself on helping the worst off it’s ironic that Corbyn has f**ked them for another 5 years” Exactly they are ideologies. However they are not the ideologies the people want. Corbyn should read that sentence until it sinks in, any chance? He's become a millionaire expressing his ideologies. Lucky boy. How has he helped the workers during this time? Billionaire businessmen have helped us more by giving us a job. To help someone you have to have the power to help them. To get that power ordinary folk have to agree with you. To get them to agree with you then you have to have something they want. |
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Post by popuppirate on Dec 14, 2019 13:04:22 GMT
We'll see how 'good' it gets. And how beneficial whatever shambles of leaving the EU this regime achieves will be. Before making flippant statements about using food banks, at least share your experiences of using them and the hardships associated with it. Then I'll share mine. You don't understand do you? My ref to foodbanks wasn't about the foodbanks themselves, but I would prefer them compared to Abotts crime ridden streets and I'll say it again yes I would. I also donate to foodbanks and spend one day every week helping families suffering hardship for free. So what you're saying is you'd rather have to rely on food banks for meals than the hypothetical Labour Government's crime ridden streets ? Sounds completely irrational, particularly when street crime is an increasing concern under the present government. |
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Post by William Wilson on Dec 14, 2019 13:05:58 GMT
The left still don't understand it. If Coca Cola invented a flavour no one wanted, they would scrap it and make a flavour they did. The left are saying the working class want the wrong things! This is the sort of arrogance you would have got from Corbyn and this Labour party if they had power. They think they know what's better for us than we do ourselves. They have committed the cardinal sin of NOT LISTENING and have paid the heavy price for it. They are still not listening have not learned anything from huge mistakes. So it's likely they won't have power for decades. The Tories do not have sole rights on lies either. The left constantly lie, the public are not naive and are not fooled. Can the left tell me how they can help society without power? As I’ve pointed out above, it’s not about doing whatever it takes to win power because the Greens could do that but it wouldn’t be who they are and it’s the same with Labour. Should they really turn into the Lib Dem’s just so they can compete? Their challenge is to soften, yes, but still not sell out their principles and leave the rest to convincing their traditional core vote that they are better off with them. Who knows, another 5 years of austerity and a bungled Brexit and the working class might literally be *begging* for a Labour government. Re: your last sentence, there was a comment that addressed this on Have I got news for you last night: “For someone who has prided himself on helping the worst off it’s ironic that Corbyn has f**ked them for another 5 years” He may well have f**ked the Labour party forever. I don`t think that it`s healthy for this country not to have a credible political opposition, but telling the working classes that you`re "sceptical as to whether they really understand" isn`t going to help. Your ( and Oldie`s ) condescending attitude towards the working class, makes me think of the relationship between a couple of Edwardian toffs and their butlers. Know your place. |
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Post by althepirate on Dec 14, 2019 13:23:46 GMT
You don't understand do you? My ref to foodbanks wasn't about the foodbanks themselves, but I would prefer them compared to Abotts crime ridden streets and I'll say it again yes I would. I also donate to foodbanks and spend one day every week helping families suffering hardship for free. So what you're saying is you'd rather have to rely on food banks for meals than the hypothetical Labour Government's crime ridden streets ? Sounds completely irrational, particularly when street crime is an increasing concern under the present government. Yes I would prefer hunger to harm. In reality I would be more likely to die from crime than hunger. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2019 13:32:58 GMT
As I’ve pointed out above, it’s not about doing whatever it takes to win power because the Greens could do that but it wouldn’t be who they are and it’s the same with Labour. Should they really turn into the Lib Dem’s just so they can compete? Their challenge is to soften, yes, but still not sell out their principles and leave the rest to convincing their traditional core vote that they are better off with them. Who knows, another 5 years of austerity and a bungled Brexit and the working class might literally be *begging* for a Labour government. Re: your last sentence, there was a comment that addressed this on Have I got news for you last night: “For someone who has prided himself on helping the worst off it’s ironic that Corbyn has f**ked them for another 5 years” Exactly they are ideologies. However they are not the ideologies the people want. Corbyn should read that sentence until it sinks in, any chance? He's become a millionaire expressing his ideologies. Lucky boy. How has he helped the workers during this time? Billionaire businessmen have helped us more by giving us a job. To help someone you have to have the power to help them. To get that power ordinary folk have to agree with you. To get them to agree with you then you have to have something they want. I agree with that- people have rejected Corbyn on a number of factors: who he is, his policies, his Brexit stance. But I take issue that they need to throw the baby out with the bath water. I think their morals should be strong enough that they don’t go full scale new labour which wasn’t traditional. I would hope they try less to be all things to all people, get an investable and relatable leader (I agree that Corbyn’s wealth makes him a bit champagne socialist) and target certain areas of the economy they think they can do well (housing, the NHS, social mobility, workers rights) and focus on that. If that doesn’t win them votes in their traditional heartlands then they need to try harder, not sell themselves out and stand for something completely different because if they do that they might as well bin the name Labour and start up as a new party. And as I said before, who knows what the next 5 years will bring. Market conditions may well change post Brexit and leave people desperate for change. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2019 13:51:00 GMT
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Post by althepirate on Dec 14, 2019 14:14:35 GMT
Exactly they are ideologies. However they are not the ideologies the people want. Corbyn should read that sentence until it sinks in, any chance? He's become a millionaire expressing his ideologies. Lucky boy. How has he helped the workers during this time? Billionaire businessmen have helped us more by giving us a job. To help someone you have to have the power to help them. To get that power ordinary folk have to agree with you. To get them to agree with you then you have to have something they want. I agree with that- people have rejected Corbyn on a number of factors: who he is, his policies, his Brexit stance. But I take issue that they need to throw the baby out with the bath water. I think their morals should be strong enough that they don’t go full scale new labour which wasn’t traditional. I would hope they try less to be all things to all people, get an investable and relatable leader (I agree that Corbyn’s wealth makes him a bit champagne socialist) and target certain areas of the economy they think they can do well (housing, the NHS, social mobility, workers rights) and focus on that. If that doesn’t win them votes in their traditional heartlands then they need to try harder, not sell themselves out and stand for something completely different because if they do that they might as well bin the name Labour and start up as a new party. And as I said before, who knows what the next 5 years will bring. Market conditions may well change post Brexit and leave people desperate for change. It's ok for sticking to your principles, I admire your stance on that but if no one wants it and no one as ever voted in the Left wing in this country then the question is why is he doing it? For himself or us because we don't want it and it also leaves very weak opposition in government to fight for us. You say it's best not to be all things to all people, I see where you're coming from, but the country is all things and all people and that's what he wanted to govern. One thing people do want is pride in themselves and that is achieved by independence not dependence which achieves the opposite. I personally don't want to see my gas bill being paid by government funds. If thats what he calls helping the workers in the long run he is killing them, just my view. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2019 14:46:01 GMT
As I’ve pointed out above, it’s not about doing whatever it takes to win power because the Greens could do that but it wouldn’t be who they are and it’s the same with Labour. Should they really turn into the Lib Dem’s just so they can compete? Their challenge is to soften, yes, but still not sell out their principles and leave the rest to convincing their traditional core vote that they are better off with them. Who knows, another 5 years of austerity and a bungled Brexit and the working class might literally be *begging* for a Labour government. Re: your last sentence, there was a comment that addressed this on Have I got news for you last night: “For someone who has prided himself on helping the worst off it’s ironic that Corbyn has f**ked them for another 5 years” He may well have f**ked the Labour party forever. I don`t think that it`s healthy for this country not to have a credible political opposition, but telling the working classes that you`re "sceptical as to whether they really understand" isn`t going to help. Your ( and Oldie`s ) condescending attitude towards the working class, makes me think of the relationship between a couple of Edwardian toffs and their butlers. Know your place. Where have I been condescending to the working class? Genuine question? |
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Post by althepirate on Dec 14, 2019 14:55:22 GMT
He may well have f**ked the Labour party forever. I don`t think that it`s healthy for this country not to have a credible political opposition, but telling the working classes that you`re "sceptical as to whether they really understand" isn`t going to help. Your ( and Oldie`s ) condescending attitude towards the working class, makes me think of the relationship between a couple of Edwardian toffs and their butlers. Know your place. Where have I been condescending to the working class? Genuine question? All the time sadly |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2019 15:06:35 GMT
As I’ve pointed out above, it’s not about doing whatever it takes to win power because the Greens could do that but it wouldn’t be who they are and it’s the same with Labour. Should they really turn into the Lib Dem’s just so they can compete? Their challenge is to soften, yes, but still not sell out their principles and leave the rest to convincing their traditional core vote that they are better off with them. Who knows, another 5 years of austerity and a bungled Brexit and the working class might literally be *begging* for a Labour government. Re: your last sentence, there was a comment that addressed this on Have I got news for you last night: “For someone who has prided himself on helping the worst off it’s ironic that Corbyn has f**ked them for another 5 years” He may well have f**ked the Labour party forever. I don`t think that it`s healthy for this country not to have a credible political opposition, but telling the working classes that you`re "sceptical as to whether they really understand" isn`t going to help. Your ( and Oldie`s ) condescending attitude towards the working class, makes me think of the relationship between a couple of Edwardian toffs and their butlers. Know your place. I pointed to an example where the woman’s reasoning ostensibly makes very little sense. I can understand distrust of Corbyn, but using business failures under a Tory government as specific justification for electing another one? What is it they say about leopards and their spots? So yeah, if that is the thought process of the working class Tory voter in this election then I am absolutely sceptical and if that makes me condescending in your opinion then I’m fine with that. Without wanting to be unkind daft people with no interest in politics vote every election on daft logic over daft issues. They have every right to vote and we have every right to think that they have been led up the garden path, as I am sure many probably think I have been for being anti-brexit and anti-Tory. That’s life. The proof will be in the pudding and I would put my savings on the people of Leigh not getting the positive seismic change they think they have voted for because for that to happen it will mean the Tories having to cast their eye further than London and the last 30 years have shown they are incapable of doing that so how likely are they to start now? |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2019 15:06:55 GMT
Where have I been condescending to the working class? Genuine question? All the time sadly You think? Ok, I never really thought I was always being critical of a whole (so called) class of people. |
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Post by althepirate on Dec 14, 2019 15:56:13 GMT
You think? Ok, I never really thought I was always being critical of a whole (so called) class of people. Well you come across as condescending to be honest, I hope you don't mean to be. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2019 17:13:13 GMT
You think? Ok, I never really thought I was always being critical of a whole (so called) class of people. Well you come across as condescending to be honest, I hope you don't mean to be. No intention of being so, but will call out BS when I read it. |
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Post by South Stand Ultra on Dec 14, 2019 18:20:05 GMT
You think? Ok, I never really thought I was always being critical of a whole (so called) class of people. Well you come across as condescending to be honest, I hope you don't mean to be. Its funny how many posters say this! |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2019 19:03:26 GMT
Can't believe all those numptys up north voted for then nasty party they must enjoy going to food banks universal credit shopping for chloths in charity shops and living in cardboard boxes Perhaps the use of food banks has been over hyped? You know, just to add to other sensationalist nonsense and lies! I’ve no idea what is truth, what is blatant lies, what is misquoted or what is spin after the nonsense spouted by the left during their campaign. Fortunately, those “numpty’s up north”, like many more of us were able to see through all the left bullshite. |
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Post by scoobydoogas on Dec 14, 2019 19:11:57 GMT
Exactly they are ideologies. However they are not the ideologies the people want. Corbyn should read that sentence until it sinks in, any chance? He's become a millionaire expressing his ideologies. Lucky boy. How has he helped the workers during this time? Billionaire businessmen have helped us more by giving us a job. To help someone you have to have the power to help them. To get that power ordinary folk have to agree with you. To get them to agree with you then you have to have something they want. I agree with that- people have rejected Corbyn on a number of factors: who he is, his policies, his Brexit stance. But I take issue that they need to throw the baby out with the bath water. I think their morals should be strong enough that they don’t go full scale new labour which wasn’t traditional. I would hope they try less to be all things to all people, get an investable and relatable leader (I agree that Corbyn’s wealth makes him a bit champagne socialist) and target certain areas of the economy they think they can do well (housing, the NHS, social mobility, workers rights) and focus on that. If that doesn’t win them votes in their traditional heartlands then they need to try harder, not sell themselves out and stand for something completely different because if they do that they might as well bin the name Labour and start up as a new party. And as I said before, who knows what the next 5 years will bring. Market conditions may well change post Brexit and leave people desperate for change.And this is the point. None of us know what the next 5 years will bring. Those that voted Tory sent a clear message to the left wing, anti democratic, stop Brexit, challenge everything in the Courts, we've got the speaker of the House of Commons in our back pocket, dither and delay brigade, that they weren't prepared to stand for it. How much has the left wing cost this Country in money terms through their shenanigans? Remember, this wasn't a narrow victory with a majority of a few seats. This was a royal kicking. The nation has spoken loud and clear. The left wingers are still trying to peddle Boris as the anti Christ and the bringer of plagues, pestilence, famine and economic ruin. Yet nothing they have previously forecast as negative has actually happened yet. So why keep on with it? Pirate has recently posted about how medicine prices will increase but at the bottom of his post it mentions "campaigners". Clue in the word really. Campaigners make things read exactly how they want it to and it's rarely the truth.
In contrast, those that are in favour of Brexit have had their stance hardened by the threats from left wingers, the demonstrations from crowds that have been put together not really understanding what they are protesting about, the people on this forum who have called us names and made out that we are all thick and racist. What the left wing failed to understand is that just because you didn't get massive counter protest on the scale of your own it didn't actually mean that we had given up. We just kept our powder dry and waited for Boris to play his master stroke and get his election wish.
Now you lot have only got yourselves to blame. You could have voted Teresa May's or Boris' withdrawal agreement through and known what you are getting. I hope Boris doesn't renege on his deal but it is possible that he could just say f**k it to you all, go hard Brexit, get it through Parliament with his majority and leave without a deal. And if he does that it will be all down to the left. I saw Gina Miller's face on BBC1 in the early hours of Friday when it was clear that Boris was going to win. It was priceless. I wonder how many millions of pounds she will now try to waste on her next anti Brexit venture. What will it be this time - "the public didn't know what they were voting for and we demand another election"?
Boris actually played a blinder. He took some defeats on the chin, let the left wing clearly demonstrate their obstructive, anti democratic, anti Brexit stance, left it long enough for that message to sink in across the Country and then went for an election knowing that the public would see through them and not stand for it. You see, having a million people cause carnage through London doesn't mean the whole Country have the same view. The silent majority has prevailed.
So rather than the left wing continually peddling their impending apocalyptic tripe why not take a step back, humbly accept defeat, and wait and see what Boris can do with Brexit. If he f**ks it all up then he will be gone at the next election but trying to tie his hands in future negotiations with the EU will only make the left look even more stupid.
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