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Post by stuart1974 on Nov 5, 2019 11:12:01 GMT
Ok we can agree to disagree on that, but in final I would ask
What form of leave to you subscribe to? Nigel Farage Party Leave, Boris Johnson leave or the as yet un-negotiated Jeremy Corbyn Leave? or does it not matter
3 choices of leave, 1 choice of remain. Democracy
Your question was not addressed to me but as a Leaver I’m happy to offer an opinion too. I don’t think a second referendum would be a good idea. The initial result should stand and the basic principle, for a variety of different reasons to different people, was that a majority do not like being in the EU and would rather leave than be dragged wherever it takes us. If the general public is asked to vote on the current deal they would be required to digest the massive document and fully understand it. Most couldn’t even be bothered to start reading it let alone fully understand it. The intricacies of our departure is for the politicians to sort out despite most of us now not liking to place our trust in them. If no deal was the best option it would hold no personal fears for me. I have every confidence we would flourish long term. The third option of leaving under a Corbyn Deal is a very scary thought - like his predecessor I wouldn’t even trust him to negotiate a bacon sandwich. Interesting point about people should vote only after reading and, by implication, understanding the terms of the deal. Is voting on a principle without being fully aware of the implications (a la 2016) okay though? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2019 11:40:50 GMT
Jo Swinson today...."For too many people, things aren't working like they should be - our country needs change. I vow to put the £50bn 'remain bonus' into public services if the Liberal Democrats win the 2019 General Election."
Have I missed something? What is this 50 billion quid remain bonus?
Corbyn - "Speaking in Harlow, Essex, Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn is delivering a speech on Brexit.
He says Boris Johnson stood in front of a bus claiming voting Leave would hand £350m a week to the NHS.
But now, he says, £500m a week could be taken out of the NHS and handed to big drugs companies under the PM's plans for a sell-out trade deal with Donald Trump in the USA.
Corbyn says he'll say it "again and again until our message gets through to the White House: Our NHS is not for sale"."
Is this just another of those 'repeat a lie often enough and people will believe you'? There is no trade deal with the USA. So how can Labour make these ridiculous claims? They are basically just telling lies !
If either of these two people hold any power in the UK after the election, then unfortunately, the UK will get the government they deserve !
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Post by peterparker on Nov 5, 2019 11:48:14 GMT
Jo Swinson today...."For too many people, things aren't working like they should be - our country needs change. I vow to put the £50bn 'remain bonus' into public services if the Liberal Democrats win the 2019 General Election." Have I missed something? What is this 50 billion quid remain bonus? Corbyn - "Speaking in Harlow, Essex, Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn is delivering a speech on Brexit. He says Boris Johnson stood in front of a bus claiming voting Leave would hand £350m a week to the NHS. But now, he says, £500m a week could be taken out of the NHS and handed to big drugs companies under the PM's plans for a sell-out trade deal with Donald Trump in the USA. Corbyn says he'll say it "again and again until our message gets through to the White House: Our NHS is not for sale"." Is this just another of those 'repeat a lie often enough and people will believe you'? There is no trade deal with the USA. So how can Labour make these ridiculous claims? They are basically just telling lies ! If either of these two people hold any power in the UK after the election, then unfortunately, the UK will get the government they deserve ! The remain bonus is the money The Government wouldn't have to borrow post BREXIT due to the contraction in the economy. It's playing with numbers.
Like The Tories saying we must cut the deficit, leading to Austerity, but all of a sudden the national debt is not an issue for them in this election
As for the NHS I would add the word YET. In the event of BREXIT, we keep hearing about a trade deal with the US. The Conservatives may say the NHS is of the table, but then what will the US offer up or not as the case may be (after all that's what negotiation are about)
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2019 11:54:32 GMT
Jo Swinson today...."For too many people, things aren't working like they should be - our country needs change. I vow to put the £50bn 'remain bonus' into public services if the Liberal Democrats win the 2019 General Election." Have I missed something? What is this 50 billion quid remain bonus? Corbyn - "Speaking in Harlow, Essex, Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn is delivering a speech on Brexit. He says Boris Johnson stood in front of a bus claiming voting Leave would hand £350m a week to the NHS. But now, he says, £500m a week could be taken out of the NHS and handed to big drugs companies under the PM's plans for a sell-out trade deal with Donald Trump in the USA. Corbyn says he'll say it "again and again until our message gets through to the White House: Our NHS is not for sale"." Is this just another of those 'repeat a lie often enough and people will believe you'? There is no trade deal with the USA. So how can Labour make these ridiculous claims? They are basically just telling lies ! If either of these two people hold any power in the UK after the election, then unfortunately, the UK will get the government they deserve ! The remain bonus is the money The Government wouldn't have to borrow post BREXIT due to the contraction in the economy. It's playing with numbers.
Like The Tories saying we must cut the deficit, leading to Austerity, but all of a sudden the national debt is not an issue for them in this election
As for the NHS I would add the word YET. In the event of BREXIT, we keep hearing about a trade deal with the US. The Conservatives may say the NHL is of the table, but then what will the US offer up or not as the case may be (after all that's what negotiation are about)
"The remain bonus is the money The Government wouldn't have to borrow post BREXIT due to the contraction in the economy. It's playing with numbers." - In other words, she is just making it up. What we call telling lies. Does anyone seriously believe that any government would sign up to any deal that 'forces' the NHS to spend 500 million quid a week? Have the idiots taken over the asylum? How do we let politicians get away from spouting this absolute nonsense ! FFS. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Nov 5, 2019 11:57:21 GMT
The remain bonus is the money The Government wouldn't have to borrow post BREXIT due to the contraction in the economy. It's playing with numbers.
Like The Tories saying we must cut the deficit, leading to Austerity, but all of a sudden the national debt is not an issue for them in this election
As for the NHS I would add the word YET. In the event of BREXIT, we keep hearing about a trade deal with the US. The Conservatives may say the NHL is of the table, but then what will the US offer up or not as the case may be (after all that's what negotiation are about)
"The remain bonus is the money The Government wouldn't have to borrow post BREXIT due to the contraction in the economy. It's playing with numbers." - In other words, she is just making it up. What we call telling lies. Does anyone seriously believe that any government would sign up to any deal that 'forces' the NHS to spend 500 million quid a week? Have the idiots taken over the asylum? How do we let politicians get away from spouting this absolute nonsense ! FFS. More or less likely than a UK Government signing up to the Euro and further integration into the EU? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2019 11:58:58 GMT
"The remain bonus is the money The Government wouldn't have to borrow post BREXIT due to the contraction in the economy. It's playing with numbers." - In other words, she is just making it up. What we call telling lies. Does anyone seriously believe that any government would sign up to any deal that 'forces' the NHS to spend 500 million quid a week? Have the idiots taken over the asylum? How do we let politicians get away from spouting this absolute nonsense ! FFS. More or less likely than a UK Government signing up to the Euro and further integration into the EU? As I keep saying Stuart, just what is the short/medium/long term plan for the EU? Things will not stay the way they are, we all know that. So, what is the future in the EU? |
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Post by stuart1974 on Nov 5, 2019 12:03:24 GMT
More or less likely than a UK Government signing up to the Euro and further integration into the EU? As I keep saying Stuart, just what is the short/medium/long term plan for the EU? Things will not stay the way they are, we all know that. So, what is the future in the EU? And how will any of that be forced on us? What will be the quid pro quo for a US trade deal? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2019 12:08:25 GMT
As I keep saying Stuart, just what is the short/medium/long term plan for the EU? Things will not stay the way they are, we all know that. So, what is the future in the EU? And how will any of that be forced on us? What will be the quid pro quo for a US trade deal? I've no idea about a US trade deal. As far as I'm aware negotiations haven't even started. Johnson has stated that the NHS will not be part of any future deal, and so has Trump. Corbyn is just spreading more Project Fear and telling lies ! So, in your opinion, the EU is where it is and there will be no future changes? |
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Post by peterparker on Nov 5, 2019 12:09:33 GMT
The remain bonus is the money The Government wouldn't have to borrow post BREXIT due to the contraction in the economy. It's playing with numbers.
Like The Tories saying we must cut the deficit, leading to Austerity, but all of a sudden the national debt is not an issue for them in this election
As for the NHS I would add the word YET. In the event of BREXIT, we keep hearing about a trade deal with the US. The Conservatives may say the NHL is of the table, but then what will the US offer up or not as the case may be (after all that's what negotiation are about)
"The remain bonus is the money The Government wouldn't have to borrow post BREXIT due to the contraction in the economy. It's playing with numbers." - In other words, she is just making it up. What we call telling lies. Does anyone seriously believe that any government would sign up to any deal that 'forces' the NHS to spend 500 million quid a week? Have the idiots taken over the asylum? How do we let politicians get away from spouting this absolute nonsense ! FFS. It's not a lie by Swinson though. It's an uncertain, an intangible, but it is based off of the various independent forecasts and impact studies. IS it any different to any party claiming a penny on income tax will raise X for them to put into Y?
I am not sure about the NHS, my understanding was it is crude figure based off of current US pricing. Would any Government sign up to it? I would hope not, but in the land of milk and honey post BREXIT who knows what will be offered up or asked for in negotiations
If we learn nothing from BREXIT, it's that there is always someone sat the other side of the table, be it remain, the EU or the US that want something and it's not all one way traffic to the UK
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Post by stuart1974 on Nov 5, 2019 12:13:09 GMT
And how will any of that be forced on us? What will be the quid pro quo for a US trade deal? I've no idea about a US trade deal. As far as I'm aware negotiations haven't even started. Johnson has stated that the NHS will not be part of any future deal, and so has Trump. Corbyn is just spreading more Project Fear and telling lies ! So, in your opinion, the EU is where it is and there will be no future changes? Thanks for remembering what I have said in the matter several times before. 🤔 Two speed Europe, closer alignment of the Eurozone and others in an outer circle such as ourselves on an EEA style arrangement. So how will we be forced into accepting what you are fearful of? |
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Post by peterparker on Nov 5, 2019 12:14:24 GMT
And how will any of that be forced on us? What will be the quid pro quo for a US trade deal? I've no idea about a US trade deal. As far as I'm aware negotiations haven't even started. Johnson has stated that the NHS will not be part of any future deal, and so has Trump. Corbyn is just spreading more Project Fear and telling lies ! So, in your opinion, the EU is where it is and there will be no future changes? So now we have to explicitly believe The Donald?
Trump (a positive) has been trying to get US Pharma prices down in the states. The flip side is that The Pharma companies want to sell there stuff elsewhere in order to reduce the price at home and are putting pressure on Trump, so who knows what will happen if Brexit happens and Trump is president. It's not like he isn't prone to just deciding something is it
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2019 12:15:51 GMT
"The remain bonus is the money The Government wouldn't have to borrow post BREXIT due to the contraction in the economy. It's playing with numbers." - In other words, she is just making it up. What we call telling lies. Does anyone seriously believe that any government would sign up to any deal that 'forces' the NHS to spend 500 million quid a week? Have the idiots taken over the asylum? How do we let politicians get away from spouting this absolute nonsense ! FFS. It's not a lie by Swinson though. It's an uncertain, an intangible, but it is based off of the various independent forecasts and impact studies. IS it any different to any party claiming a penny on income tax will raise X for them to put into Y?
I am not sure about the NHS, my understanding was it is crude figure based off of current US pricing. Would any Government sign up to it? I would hope not, but in the land of milk and honey post BREXIT who knows what will be offered up or asked for in negotiations
If we learn nothing from BREXIT, it's that there is always someone sat the other side of the table, be it remain, the EU or the US that want something and it's not all one way traffic to the UK
So, Swinson is saying if we leave it will cost 50 billion, as that would be the amount needed. So, if we remain then she would have to borrow that 50 billion? There would be no Brexit Bonus, just her borrowing the money ! As for the NHS, please, 500 million a week ! That is a stupid figure to come up with. Pure, pure lies. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2019 12:19:10 GMT
I've no idea about a US trade deal. As far as I'm aware negotiations haven't even started. Johnson has stated that the NHS will not be part of any future deal, and so has Trump. Corbyn is just spreading more Project Fear and telling lies ! So, in your opinion, the EU is where it is and there will be no future changes? Thanks for remembering what I have said in the matter several times before. 🤔 Two speed Europe, closer alignment of the Eurozone and others in an outer circle such as ourselves on an EEA style arrangement. So how will we be forced into accepting what you are fearful of?Maastricht, Lisbon, just two examples of having to accept something without a say. The British people voted to join the Common Market. Nobody mentioned the EEC, or the next step, the EU. The EU is evolving, and the British people don't have a say in it. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2019 12:21:15 GMT
I've no idea about a US trade deal. As far as I'm aware negotiations haven't even started. Johnson has stated that the NHS will not be part of any future deal, and so has Trump. Corbyn is just spreading more Project Fear and telling lies ! So, in your opinion, the EU is where it is and there will be no future changes? So now we have to explicitly believe The Donald?
Trump (a positive) has been trying to get US Pharma prices down in the states. The flip side is that The Pharma companies want to sell there stuff elsewhere in order to reduce the price at home and are putting pressure on Trump, so who knows what will happen if Brexit happens and Trump is president. It's not like he isn't prone to just deciding something is it
I keep saying, who in their right mind would sign up to such a thing? Read it again, 500 million a week ! There is nothing that we could 'trade off' against that sort of sum. It is a number just dreamt up out of thin air. |
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Post by Officer Barbrady on Nov 5, 2019 12:23:08 GMT
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Post by stuart1974 on Nov 5, 2019 12:25:19 GMT
Thanks for remembering what I have said in the matter several times before. 🤔 Two speed Europe, closer alignment of the Eurozone and others in an outer circle such as ourselves on an EEA style arrangement. So how will we be forced into accepting what you are fearful of?Maastricht, Lisbon, just two examples of having to accept something without a say. The British people voted to join the Common Market. Nobody mentioned the EEC, or the next step, the EU. The EU is evolving, and the British people don't have a say in it. Both voted for by UK Parliament. I was talking about having something substantial such as the Euro (one of the scenarios you mentioned) imposed on us without some form of parliamentary oversight. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2019 12:29:23 GMT
Maastricht, Lisbon, just two examples of having to accept something without a say. The British people voted to join the Common Market. Nobody mentioned the EEC, or the next step, the EU. The EU is evolving, and the British people don't have a say in it. Both voted for by UK Parliament. I was talking about having something substantial such as the Euro (one of the scenarios you mentioned) imposed on us without some form of parliamentary oversight. Existing laws can always be changed. If Parliament want to do something, we now know that they will just ignore the people's opinion. |
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Post by baggins on Nov 5, 2019 12:34:20 GMT
And how will any of that be forced on us? What will be the quid pro quo for a US trade deal? I've no idea about a US trade deal. As far as I'm aware negotiations haven't even started. Johnson has stated that the NHS will not be part of any future deal, and so has Trump. Corbyn is just spreading more Project Fear and telling lies ! So, in your opinion, the EU is where it is and there will be no future changes? You really want to start about telling lies? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2019 12:35:50 GMT
The Lisbon Treaty is self amending. "Sinn Féin Dublin MEP Mary Lou McDonald has described claims by media commentators that the Lisbon Treaty does not allow the European Commission or Council to increase and extend its own powers without the need for referendum as false. The Dublin MEP said “the Lisbon Treaty does contain a self amending clause, it’s called Article 48.” Ms McDonald continued: “Article 48 of the Lisbon Treaty gives the EU powers to amend its own treaties, without recourse to an intergovernmental conference or a new Treaty. It is also unclear whether this ‘simplified revision procedure’ would be subject to a referendum. “Up to now revisions of EU treaties required such stages so as to ensure that member state parliaments, and in the case of Ireland, populations can have a say in the decision making process of the EU. “Article 48 dispenses with this and allows the European Council to make amendments by unanimity and in certain cases by qualified majority voting, without the guarantee of any process of member state ratification. In real terms this means that in the future significant changes could be made to the structure, procedures or competencies of the EU without the guarantee of a referendum" |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2019 12:37:47 GMT
I've no idea about a US trade deal. As far as I'm aware negotiations haven't even started. Johnson has stated that the NHS will not be part of any future deal, and so has Trump. Corbyn is just spreading more Project Fear and telling lies ! So, in your opinion, the EU is where it is and there will be no future changes? You really want to start about telling lies? Eh? I'm sorry Bags, but I may get things wrong now and again, just as we all do, but I don't think you can throw that at me without backing it up ! |
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