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Post by peterparker on Nov 5, 2019 12:44:06 GMT
It's not a lie by Swinson though. It's an uncertain, an intangible, but it is based off of the various independent forecasts and impact studies. IS it any different to any party claiming a penny on income tax will raise X for them to put into Y?
I am not sure about the NHS, my understanding was it is crude figure based off of current US pricing. Would any Government sign up to it? I would hope not, but in the land of milk and honey post BREXIT who knows what will be offered up or asked for in negotiations
If we learn nothing from BREXIT, it's that there is always someone sat the other side of the table, be it remain, the EU or the US that want something and it's not all one way traffic to the UK
So, Swinson is saying if we leave it will cost 50 billion, as that would be the amount needed. So, if we remain then she would have to borrow that 50 billion? There would be no Brexit Bonus, just her borrowing the money ! As for the NHS, please, 500 million a week ! That is a stupid figure to come up with. Pure, pure lies. Up to you or anyone else to decide whether this is a lie or bollox, but this the 'detail' as explained if anyone bothers to check
The party said the £50bn figure - the amount that it has calculated will be saved over the next five years by staying in the EU - is based on the UK economy being 1.9% larger in 2024-25.
It reflects the extra tax income over the next five years and is based on a 0.4% average annual boost to GDP if the UK stays in the EU
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Post by stuart1974 on Nov 5, 2019 12:48:34 GMT
Both voted for by UK Parliament. I was talking about having something substantial such as the Euro (one of the scenarios you mentioned) imposed on us without some form of parliamentary oversight. Existing laws can always be changed. If Parliament want to do something, we now know that they will just ignore the people's opinion. So Parliament can choose, how can the EU force us to adopt the Euro without some form of parliamentary ovetsight? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2019 12:49:38 GMT
So, Swinson is saying if we leave it will cost 50 billion, as that would be the amount needed. So, if we remain then she would have to borrow that 50 billion? There would be no Brexit Bonus, just her borrowing the money ! As for the NHS, please, 500 million a week ! That is a stupid figure to come up with. Pure, pure lies. Up to you or anyone else to decide whether this is a lie or bollox, but this the 'detail' as explained if anyone bothers to check
The party said the £50bn figure - the amount that it has calculated will be saved over the next five years by staying in the EU - is based on the UK economy being 1.9% larger in 2024-25.
It reflects the extra tax income over the next five years and is based on a 0.4% average annual boost to GDP if the UK stays in the EU
Ah, Fantasy Economics then  |
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Post by stuart1974 on Nov 5, 2019 12:49:43 GMT
The Lisbon Treaty is self amending. "Sinn Féin Dublin MEP Mary Lou McDonald has described claims by media commentators that the Lisbon Treaty does not allow the European Commission or Council to increase and extend its own powers without the need for referendum as false. The Dublin MEP said “the Lisbon Treaty does contain a self amending clause, it’s called Article 48.” Ms McDonald continued: “Article 48 of the Lisbon Treaty gives the EU powers to amend its own treaties, without recourse to an intergovernmental conference or a new Treaty. It is also unclear whether this ‘simplified revision procedure’ would be subject to a referendum. “Up to now revisions of EU treaties required such stages so as to ensure that member state parliaments, and in the case of Ireland, populations can have a say in the decision making process of the EU. “Article 48 dispenses with this and allows the European Council to make amendments by unanimity and in certain cases by qualified majority voting, without the guarantee of any process of member state ratification. In real terms this means that in the future significant changes could be made to the structure, procedures or competencies of the EU without the guarantee of a referendum" Have you read A48? |
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Post by baggins on Nov 5, 2019 12:52:04 GMT
You really want to start about telling lies? Eh? I'm sorry Bags, but I may get things wrong now and again, just as we all do, but I don't think you can throw that at me without backing it up ! Not you lying, but pointing out Corbyn as a liar without mentioning everyone and anyone else is far too specific. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2019 12:52:10 GMT
Existing laws can always be changed. If Parliament want to do something, we now know that they will just ignore the people's opinion. So Parliament can choose, how can the EU force us to adopt the Euro without some form of parliamentary ovetsight? As I've said, Parliamentary oversight is pretty meaningless isn't it? The Common Market to the EEC to the EU...Maastricht and Lisbon, all completed under 'Parliamentary oversight'. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2019 12:54:05 GMT
Re the £500 million a week.
That figure was derived from the study undertaken by one or two of the guys in the recent despatches program on C4.
The facts are that the Americans pay a lot more for medicines and drugs than we do, partly as a result of their market being fractured by private insurance and multiple private providers.
The American Drug companies have been lobbying Trump to pressurise us as our single market (NHS) has driven down prices. At one point last year they actually said it was unfair🤡.
I have no idea whether the £500M is accurate, but you can bet that in any trade deal this will be lobbied hard by the Americans.
It's not about running the NHS, it's about supplying it.
It's in the game in any trade deal.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2019 12:54:24 GMT
Eh? I'm sorry Bags, but I may get things wrong now and again, just as we all do, but I don't think you can throw that at me without backing it up ! Not you lying, but pointing out Corbyn as a liar without mentioning everyone and anyone else is far too specific. Look, every politician lies, we know that, but some lies are just totally outrageous and are designed to scare voters, which is really unacceptable. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Nov 5, 2019 12:56:02 GMT
So Parliament can choose, how can the EU force us to adopt the Euro without some form of parliamentary ovetsight? As I've said, Parliamentary oversight is pretty meaningless isn't it? The Common Market to the EEC to the EU...Maastricht and Lisbon, all completed under 'Parliamentary oversight'. But not being forced on us, though, by the EU. We may choose to adopt the Euro, but that would be by a referendum or Parliament. There is nothing inevitable or being forced to. |
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Post by peterparker on Nov 5, 2019 12:56:13 GMT
Up to you or anyone else to decide whether this is a lie or bollox, but this the 'detail' as explained if anyone bothers to check
The party said the £50bn figure - the amount that it has calculated will be saved over the next five years by staying in the EU - is based on the UK economy being 1.9% larger in 2024-25.
It reflects the extra tax income over the next five years and is based on a 0.4% average annual boost to GDP if the UK stays in the EU
Ah, Fantasy Economics then any more so then The Tories and cut tax spend more |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2019 12:57:14 GMT
The Lisbon Treaty is self amending. "Sinn Féin Dublin MEP Mary Lou McDonald has described claims by media commentators that the Lisbon Treaty does not allow the European Commission or Council to increase and extend its own powers without the need for referendum as false. The Dublin MEP said “the Lisbon Treaty does contain a self amending clause, it’s called Article 48.” Ms McDonald continued: “Article 48 of the Lisbon Treaty gives the EU powers to amend its own treaties, without recourse to an intergovernmental conference or a new Treaty. It is also unclear whether this ‘simplified revision procedure’ would be subject to a referendum. “Up to now revisions of EU treaties required such stages so as to ensure that member state parliaments, and in the case of Ireland, populations can have a say in the decision making process of the EU. “Article 48 dispenses with this and allows the European Council to make amendments by unanimity and in certain cases by qualified majority voting, without the guarantee of any process of member state ratification. In real terms this means that in the future significant changes could be made to the structure, procedures or competencies of the EU without the guarantee of a referendum" Have you read A48? No. Have you seen how big it is and how many other documents/treaties it refers to? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2019 12:58:27 GMT
Ah, Fantasy Economics then any more so then The Tories and cut tax spend more There are times where cutting taxes actually increases the tax intake. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Nov 5, 2019 12:59:48 GMT
No. Have you seen how big it is and how many other documents/treaties it refers to? I have, probably because I have read it. 😋 |
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Post by baggins on Nov 5, 2019 13:04:22 GMT
Not you lying, but pointing out Corbyn as a liar without mentioning everyone and anyone else is far too specific. Look, every politician lies, we know that, but some lies are just totally outrageous and are designed to scare voters, which is really unacceptable. As opposed to lying to get votes? |
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Post by peterparker on Nov 5, 2019 13:14:27 GMT
any more so then The Tories and cut tax spend more There are times where cutting taxes actually increases the tax intake. I am aware of that from my studies, however I am not sure The Tories have actually said how they were going to manage this all whilst their own Government impact reports mean the country will be worse off |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2019 13:18:10 GMT
Look, every politician lies, we know that, but some lies are just totally outrageous and are designed to scare voters, which is really unacceptable. As opposed to lying to get votes? Same thing. Scare the voters about what the 'other lot' are going to do. It's the negative way that politics is conducted in the UK. What they should be doing is telling us how they are going to improve things. |
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Post by baggins on Nov 5, 2019 13:20:07 GMT
As opposed to lying to get votes? Same thing. Scare the voters about what the 'other lot' are going to do. It's the negative way that politics is conducted in the UK. What they should be doing is telling us how they are going to improve things. Would have been nice if they'd have done that before the referendum. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2019 13:26:00 GMT
Same thing. Scare the voters about what the 'other lot' are going to do. It's the negative way that politics is conducted in the UK. What they should be doing is telling us how they are going to improve things. Would have been nice if they'd have done that before the referendum. Works both ways. How will staying in the EU improve things? What is the future direction of the EU that will improve things? |
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Post by baggins on Nov 5, 2019 13:30:21 GMT
Would have been nice if they'd have done that before the referendum. Works both ways. How will staying in the EU improve things? What is the future direction of the EU that will improve things? Thought we were going along quite nicely being part of the EU. Trade was there, finance was there, no border problems, no tariff problems, why leave? Oh yea, immigrants. |
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Post by Officer Barbrady on Nov 5, 2019 13:39:38 GMT
Works both ways. How will staying in the EU improve things? What is the future direction of the EU that will improve things? Thought we were going along quite nicely being part of the EU. Trade was there, finance was there, no border problems, no tariff problems, why leave? Oh yea, immigrants. Yeah this lot. www.oxfordeconomics.com/recent-releases/8747673d-3b26-439b-9693-0e250df6dbbaThe average UK-based migrant from Europe contributed approximately £2,300 more to UK public finances in 2016/17 than the average UK adult. In comparison, each UK born adult contributed £70 less than the average, and each non-European migrant contributed over £800 less than the average.The average European migrant arriving in the UK in 2016 will contribute £78,000 more than they take out in public services and benefits over their time spent in the UK (assuming a balanced national budget), and the average non-European migrant will make a positive net contribution of £28,000 while living here. By comparison, the average UK citizen’s net lifetime contribution in this scenario is zero.Taken together, this means that the migrants who arrived in 2016 will make a total net positive contribution of £26.9 billion to the UK’s public finances over the entirety of their stay. The value of this to the UK’s public finances is equivalent to putting approximately 5p on income tax rates (across all marginal rate bands) in that year. |
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