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Post by peterparker on Dec 10, 2019 9:29:18 GMT
As I keep saying Stuart, the full story over this incident hasn't come out yet, and this emotional knee-jerk reaction displayed by the media, and some on here, does not do anything but stir up resentment, bitterness and hatred and it's all totally unnecessary. Too many people flare up over fake news. Look at the reaction a few days ago when Channel 4 changed the words that Johnson used from 'talent' to 'colour'! Instantly, people on here were outraged, calling Johnson all sorts of names. When it was quickly established that Channel 4 had made up the story only silence ensued but the damage was done. It's about time a more mature attitude was adopted over sensationalist stories. Expanding on this, can you all remember when Corbyn was pictured sitting on the floor of a train and complaining about overcrowding? It turned out that there were many empty seats he could have used, but a story needed to be manufactured. a story needed to be manufactured. you mean like using multiple accounts to copy and paste the same story saying it is all staged and fake, despite the Hospital confirming it to be true
or what about Senior Tory source using Peston and Kuenssberg to suggest Matt Hancock/aide was assaulted on his visit to the hospital
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2019 9:36:25 GMT
Hang on. This 35 billion figure. That is not the figure being trawled by Richard Murphy is it? If so, that has been totally discredited. HMRC employs about 26,000 people. I think that amongst that lot there are a fair few chasing tax evaders. No Nobby. The figure of 35 billion comes from HMRC. fullfact.org/online/comparing-benefit-and-tax-fraud/Once again, let's look at the facts and not use this knee-jerk type of reaction. HMRC say that unpiad tax is the result of :- 6.4bn - Failure to take reasonable care - Not sure what that means to be honest. 6.2bn - Legal Interpretation - So that's stuff where both sides are arguing the toss. Some you'll get back and some you won't. 5.3bn - Evasion - That can be chased. Although tax evasion is as old as prostitution. You'll never get rid of it so you'll never reclaim this total. 4.9bn - Criminal Attacks - Not sure what this is but the same as evasion. You'll never get rid of it so you'll never reclaim this total. 3.9bn - Non-Payment - Chase some of this, but some may be because businesses have gone bust so therefore unable to pay. You can use Bury FC as an example. 3.0bn - Hidden Economy - You'll probably never get this back. Cash in hand for work done resulting in no VAT. 1.8bn - Avoidance - Perfectly legal and you will not get this back. So, your figure of 34 billion doesn't really stand up does it? The total figure you quote may sound impressive but the reality is somewhat different. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Dec 10, 2019 9:38:32 GMT
The circumstancez of the boy is pretty immaterial, these things happen as I have seen them myself. The issue is his reaction, he deigned to look at the picture and took the reporter's phone presumably to avoid looking at it. He apologised belatedly. I don't really care about him taking responsibility, it was the politician first attitude trying to hide from scrutiny that came to the fore. How about being a decent human being an showing some humanity? He was apologising during the interview, but once again, what do you expect him to do? He is the PM and has no say in the running of any single A&E department in the country. In fact, in every NHS Trust in the country there are people earning more money than he does! Why question the PM over this when it is the Trust of that hospital who should be dragged out and asked questions of? They are the ones running this A&E department yet they get away with it every time. When was the last time you visited A&E? It's not a question of blame, as I said it was his initial reaction if refusing to look at the picture and taking the phone. Then of course the story of the 'assault'. If he looked at the picture when asked, said what he later said and then despatched Hancock he would have looked statesmanlike, in control and show his human side. Nope, ignore, delfect, distract. It's always someone elses fault, isn't it. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2019 9:48:38 GMT
Expanding on this, can you all remember when Corbyn was pictured sitting on the floor of a train and complaining about overcrowding? It turned out that there were many empty seats he could have used, but a story needed to be manufactured. a story needed to be manufactured. you mean like using multiple accounts to copy and paste the same story saying it is all staged and fake, despite the Hospital confirming it to be true
or what about Senior Tory source using Peston and Kuenssberg to suggest Matt Hancock/aide was assaulted on his visit to the hospital
As I keep saying, don't believe everything you read in the media. The vast majority of these stories are just sensationalist nonsense. Most of the time it's journalists looking for THAT story to spice up the day. Other times it's the media managers from all parties looking for THAT story that paints the other side in a bad light and they feed off the outraged reaction of the gullible. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2019 9:56:06 GMT
a story needed to be manufactured. you mean like using multiple accounts to copy and paste the same story saying it is all staged and fake, despite the Hospital confirming it to be true
or what about Senior Tory source using Peston and Kuenssberg to suggest Matt Hancock/aide was assaulted on his visit to the hospital
As I keep saying, don't believe everything you read in the media. The vast majority of these stories are just sensationalist nonsense. Most of the time it's journalists looking for THAT story to spice up the day. Other times it's the media managers from all parties looking for THAT story that paints the other side in a bad light and they feed off the outraged reaction of the gullible. Or.. 1. He was taken to A&E by worried parents and the department could not cope, so what are the causal factors in our Health Service being in such disarray? 2. Johnson's reaction spoke volumes, it was inexplicable. What drives you to put someone else's phone in your pocket when shown a picture. A pathological inability to face the truth, perhaps? This was a telling moment for those in doubt. |
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Post by yetigas on Dec 10, 2019 10:08:53 GMT
Once again, let's look at the facts and not use this knee-jerk type of reaction. HMRC say that unpiad tax is the result of :- 6.4bn - Failure to take reasonable care - Not sure what that means to be honest. 6.2bn - Legal Interpretation - So that's stuff where both sides are arguing the toss. Some you'll get back and some you won't. 5.3bn - Evasion - That can be chased. Although tax evasion is as old as prostitution. You'll never get rid of it so you'll never reclaim this total. 4.9bn - Criminal Attacks - Not sure what this is but the same as evasion. You'll never get rid of it so you'll never reclaim this total. 3.9bn - Non-Payment - Chase some of this, but some may be because businesses have gone bust so therefore unable to pay. You can use Bury FC as an example. 3.0bn - Hidden Economy - You'll probably never get this back. Cash in hand for work done resulting in no VAT. 1.8bn - Avoidance - Perfectly legal and you will not get this back. So, your figure of 34 billion doesn't really stand up does it? The total figure you quote may sound impressive but the reality is somewhat different. So you are happy that people don't pay their taxes. Strange. HMRC would need to collect only 6% of that total to equal what is lost through benefit fraud. I think most reasonable people can see where the real problem lies. Now I must go to work - happy to re-engage later! |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2019 10:39:03 GMT
Is that £35 billion quote 100% due to illegal tax evasion or just a headline grabbing figure? Whether it’s a correct figure or not any money that HMRC and the taxpayer are deprived of should be hunted down. Any that is lost through perfectly legal avoidance schemes needs to be addressed by government whoever that may be. Does anyone think tax avoidance only came in to being when the conservatives came to government. Amazing how they got away with introducing such schemes when the previous labour government had closed every single tax loophole! As for the £2 billion from benefit fraud how many nurses and doctors could you get for that? I keep hearing about Tory austerity but at the same time there seems no appetite to stop the public purse bleeding billions of pounds. The left may not want to believe benefit fraud happens but it obviously does and it is costing us billions which we cannot afford to just brush under the carpet because of political beliefs. Eric, the reference I gave you answers the question that you ask. My point is that you can employ a lot more nurses and doctors (to use your example) from the 35 billion not being collected in tax than you can from 2 billion from benefit cheats. Ideally you would stop both, but strategically it would make a lot more sense to chase those evading tax. Right? I asked the question as it wasn’t particularly clear from the link (to me anyway!) whether the £35bn was due to illegal tax evasion. It suggests monies that “could in theory have been collected in tax” so I’m guessing it’s including legal tax avoidance in coming up with the figure? Regardless of the amounts both need to be addressed and illegal tax evasion and illegal/fraudulent benefit claims need heavy punishment. I don’t get the deflection techniques used by the left when benefit cheats are called out - they don’t like to believe benefit fraud happens and look to deflect by reverting to their tried and trusted “what about the rich tax dodgers” line. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2019 10:41:10 GMT
Once again, let's look at the facts and not use this knee-jerk type of reaction. HMRC say that unpiad tax is the result of :- 6.4bn - Failure to take reasonable care - Not sure what that means to be honest. 6.2bn - Legal Interpretation - So that's stuff where both sides are arguing the toss. Some you'll get back and some you won't. 5.3bn - Evasion - That can be chased. Although tax evasion is as old as prostitution. You'll never get rid of it so you'll never reclaim this total. 4.9bn - Criminal Attacks - Not sure what this is but the same as evasion. You'll never get rid of it so you'll never reclaim this total. 3.9bn - Non-Payment - Chase some of this, but some may be because businesses have gone bust so therefore unable to pay. You can use Bury FC as an example. 3.0bn - Hidden Economy - You'll probably never get this back. Cash in hand for work done resulting in no VAT. 1.8bn - Avoidance - Perfectly legal and you will not get this back. So, your figure of 34 billion doesn't really stand up does it? The total figure you quote may sound impressive but the reality is somewhat different. So you are happy that people don't pay their taxes. Strange. HMRC would need to collect only 6% of that total to equal what is lost through benefit fraud. I think most reasonable people can see where the real problem lies. Now I must go to work - happy to re-engage later! Where did I say I was happy about it? It is a bit silly to attempt to attach wording like that to someone else when there is no evidence to the contrary. Now, I've given a very short assessment of each of those labels, and how it would be virtually impossible to re-claim that money, so in reality it is a false figure isn't it? Not much of a 'scandal' eh? Your outrage at 34 billion not being collected is just wrong isn't it? |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2019 10:49:01 GMT
Same reaction as me I’d imagine - wouldn’t want anyone like that in the party. Just a good job she hasn’t worked her way up to party leadership and potential to become pm, now that would be embarrassing. Luckily the party has more class than to allow a terrorist sympathiser to become their leader - unlike certain others!!! Sorry mate but they are as bad in their own way for having an odious character like Johnson in charge of them. The likes of you or I would get the sack pronto if we came out with the vile comments that Johnson has, and yet he’s held up as being fit for the highest role in the land! No-one has any moral high ground at all when it comes to the conduct of their leaders, to the point where if you wanted to vote the for squeaky clean one you would end up staying at home on polling day. I don’t recall any comments I would consider “vile” from Johnson. I can understand why Johnson is disliked by the left and he comes out with some daft comments from time to time but “vile” really? To even compare what he has said and done over the years to Corbyn is ridiculous. On your wider point I agree that there are moral deficiencies in the leaders and across politics in general. I guess views will vary as everyone has their different interpretations on morals and what they deem accceptable/unacceptable. I also think that people’s outrage at iffy behaviour depends on their politics and preferences. For example would the Canadian PM still be in office if he was a right winger? If he visits the UK I expect he would get an easy ride whereas if photos of Trump blacked up had come to light there would be mayhem. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2019 11:22:04 GMT
a story needed to be manufactured. you mean like using multiple accounts to copy and paste the same story saying it is all staged and fake, despite the Hospital confirming it to be true
or what about Senior Tory source using Peston and Kuenssberg to suggest Matt Hancock/aide was assaulted on his visit to the hospital
As I keep saying, don't believe everything you read in the media. The vast majority of these stories are just sensationalist nonsense. Most of the time it's journalists looking for THAT story to spice up the day. Other times it's the media managers from all parties looking for THAT story that paints the other side in a bad light and they feed off the outraged reaction of the gullible. Or maybe it’s just Occam’s razor? |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2019 11:33:35 GMT
Sorry mate but they are as bad in their own way for having an odious character like Johnson in charge of them. The likes of you or I would get the sack pronto if we came out with the vile comments that Johnson has, and yet he’s held up as being fit for the highest role in the land! No-one has any moral high ground at all when it comes to the conduct of their leaders, to the point where if you wanted to vote the for squeaky clean one you would end up staying at home on polling day. I don’t recall any comments I would consider “vile” from Johnson. I can understand why Johnson is disliked by the left and he comes out with some daft comments from time to time but “vile” really? To even compare what he has said and done over the years to Corbyn is ridiculous. On your wider point I agree that there are moral deficiencies in the leaders and across politics in general. I guess views will vary as everyone has their different interpretations on morals and what they deem accceptable/unacceptable. I also think that people’s outrage at iffy behaviour depends on their politics and preferences. For example would the Canadian PM still be in office if he was a right winger? If he visits the UK I expect he would get an easy ride whereas if photos of Trump blacked up had come to light there would be mayhem. I would wager it’s only the extreme left who have any love for Trudeau, give me Corbyn over him any day. Trudeau is the most annoying kind of social justice warrior that gives the left wing a bad name as a bunch of snowflakes. When he got caught out with the blackface stuff it was brilliant. The sad thing is if Trump did it nobody would bat an eyelid because people expect that kind of behaviour from Trump now and to be fair to Trump at least he has never claimed to be anything other than a boorish w**ker unlike Trudeau who it appears has got skeletons in his closet. Re: what Johnson said- in all seriousness would you dare to refer to your potential customers as having pick-a-ninny smiles when representing your company? Do you think your company would tolerate that? On a slight tangent I was actually in favour of Trump because although he is an oaf when the other option is a warmonger like Clinton for me it’s a no-brainer. But I can only shake my head when you look at America having to choose between Trump and Clinton and then look at what is happening in the U.K. Where has the class and dignity gone in politics? There must be something deeper to it. Maybe these cartoon characters masquerading as politicians is the inevitable end game of rampant free market capitalism allied to endless social media platforms and duck face selfies. I honestly wonder what politicians in the 40s and 50s would make of the f**king rabble that are potentially in charge of nuclear codes today. If they looked into a crystal ball and saw the state of politics in the west in 2019 they would conclude they were tripping. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2019 11:50:31 GMT
Here's a breaking story that is worth covering. Jonathan Ashworth, who is the Shadow Health Secretary, recorded talking about Corbyn and Labour. Let's see if this is covered on the BBC, Sky, Guardian, Channel 4 etc. "Labour’s own Shadow Cabinet Health Minister hopes they lose and they can get rid of Jeremy Corbyn. In the event that Corbyn gets into Downing Street, he hopes the Civil Service machine would be able to safeguard national security from Prime Minister Corbyn. Has there ever been a situation where Labour frontbenchers hope their party loses because their leader is a risk to national security?" Order-Order |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2019 11:55:45 GMT
I don’t recall any comments I would consider “vile” from Johnson. I can understand why Johnson is disliked by the left and he comes out with some daft comments from time to time but “vile” really? To even compare what he has said and done over the years to Corbyn is ridiculous. On your wider point I agree that there are moral deficiencies in the leaders and across politics in general. I guess views will vary as everyone has their different interpretations on morals and what they deem accceptable/unacceptable. I also think that people’s outrage at iffy behaviour depends on their politics and preferences. For example would the Canadian PM still be in office if he was a right winger? If he visits the UK I expect he would get an easy ride whereas if photos of Trump blacked up had come to light there would be mayhem. I would wager it’s only the extreme left who have any love for Trudeau, give me Corbyn over him any day. Trudeau is the most annoying kind of social justice warrior that gives the left wing a bad name as a bunch of snowflakes. When he got caught out with the blackface stuff it was brilliant. The sad thing is if Trump did it nobody would bat an eyelid because people expect that kind of behaviour from Trump now and to be fair to Trump at least he has never claimed to be anything other than a boorish w**ker unlike Trudeau who it appears has got skeletons in his closet. Re: what Johnson said- in all seriousness would you dare to refer to your potential customers as having pick-a-ninny smiles when representing your company? Do you think your company would tolerate that? On a slight tangent I was actually in favour of Trump because although he is an oaf when the other option is a warmonger like Clinton for me it’s a no-brainer. But I can only shake my head when you look at America having to choose between Trump and Clinton and then look at what is happening in the U.K. Where has the class and dignity gone in politics? There must be something deeper to it. Maybe these cartoon characters masquerading as politicians is the inevitable end game of rampant free market capitalism allied to endless social media platforms and duck face selfies. I honestly wonder what politicians in the 40s and 50s would make of the f**king rabble that are potentially in charge of nuclear codes today. If they looked into a crystal ball and saw the state of politics in the west in 2019 they would conclude they were tripping. Not quite. Churchill turned the troops on his own people in 1926. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2019 11:57:24 GMT
Here's a breaking story that is worth covering. Jonathan Ashworth, who is the Shadow Health Secretary, recorded talking about Corbyn and Labour. Let's see if this is covered on the BBC, Sky, Guardian, Channel 4 etc. "Labour’s own Shadow Cabinet Health Minister hopes they lose and they can get rid of Jeremy Corbyn. In the event that Corbyn gets into Downing Street, he hopes the Civil Service machine would be able to safeguard national security from Prime Minister Corbyn. Has there ever been a situation where Labour frontbenchers hope their party loses because their leader is a risk to national security?" Order-OrderHow many MP's had the whip withdrawn under Johnson? How many are now standing against their former party? |
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Post by stuart1974 on Dec 10, 2019 12:02:33 GMT
Here's a breaking story that is worth covering. Jonathan Ashworth, who is the Shadow Health Secretary, recorded talking about Corbyn and Labour. Let's see if this is covered on the BBC, Sky, Guardian, Channel 4 etc. "Labour’s own Shadow Cabinet Health Minister hopes they lose and they can get rid of Jeremy Corbyn. In the event that Corbyn gets into Downing Street, he hopes the Civil Service machine would be able to safeguard national security from Prime Minister Corbyn. Has there ever been a situation where Labour frontbenchers hope their party loses because their leader is a risk to national security?" Order-Order Well, I saw the BBC showing it earlier. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2019 12:03:54 GMT
Here's a breaking story that is worth covering. Jonathan Ashworth, who is the Shadow Health Secretary, recorded talking about Corbyn and Labour. Let's see if this is covered on the BBC, Sky, Guardian, Channel 4 etc. "Labour’s own Shadow Cabinet Health Minister hopes they lose and they can get rid of Jeremy Corbyn. In the event that Corbyn gets into Downing Street, he hopes the Civil Service machine would be able to safeguard national security from Prime Minister Corbyn. Has there ever been a situation where Labour frontbenchers hope their party loses because their leader is a risk to national security?" Order-OrderHow many MP's had the whip withdrawn under Johnson? How many are now standing against their former party? Oh hello. The old deflection technique eh? Have you listened to the recording? |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2019 12:07:44 GMT
Any day now we'll hear this from Labour........  |
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Post by stuart1974 on Dec 10, 2019 12:19:38 GMT
How many MP's had the whip withdrawn under Johnson? How many are now standing against their former party? Oh hello. The old deflection technique eh? Have you listened to the recording? When was it recorded and why has it been leaked to a sympathetic website less than 24 hours after the news of Boris' run in with the ITV journalist? |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2019 12:21:25 GMT
How many MP's had the whip withdrawn under Johnson? How many are now standing against their former party? Oh hello. The old deflection technique eh? Have you listened to the recording? Yep, I think many voting labour feel the same way. I was not deflecting, oh master of that dark art, I was merely responding to your faux outrage. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2019 12:22:59 GMT
Oh hello. The old deflection technique eh? Have you listened to the recording? Yep, I think many voting labour feel the same way. I was not deflecting, oh master of that dark art, I was merely responding to your faux outrage. Outrage? No outrage. I'm laughing my bollux off about it ! |
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