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Post by swissgas on Apr 2, 2020 17:20:58 GMT
Well a director can be held personally responsible if an insolvent company doesn't pay money owed to HMRC if it is withheld deliberately to the benefit of other creditors or is the result of neglect or fraud. Good one. Just need JC to clarify what he meant now then and if it’s for that reason why exactly are they so worried to take places on the Board. His statement can’t be left hanging there without further probing as some of his detractors seem to want to do for some strange reason. I don't want to go off topic but as Big Jock said earlier this whole incident shows that both those running the supporters club and those running the football club are simply not up to the job. On another thread Axegas mentioned Bath City's disappointment at having planning permission refused. If you read the statement from their Chairman and then compare the quality of that to the waffle from Ken Masters, Jim Chappell, Wael and Martyn Starnes it is enough to make you weep. www.bathcityfc.com/a-message-from-the-chairman-2/
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Apr 2, 2020 17:32:59 GMT
Good one. Just need JC to clarify what he meant now then and if it’s for that reason why exactly are they so worried to take places on the Board. His statement can’t be left hanging there without further probing as some of his detractors seem to want to do for some strange reason. I don't want to go off topic but as Big Jock said earlier this whole incident shows that both those running the supporters club and those running the football club are simply not up to the job. On another thread Axegas mentioned Bath City's disappointment at having planning permission refused. If you read the statement from their Chairman and then compare the quality of that to the waffle from Ken Masters, Jim Chappell, Wael and Martyn Starnes it is enough to make you weep. www.bathcityfc.com/a-message-from-the-chairman-2/ Well said. It's a sorry show all round at Rovers.
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Post by yattongas on Apr 2, 2020 17:34:22 GMT
Up the bloody Gas ! 😀
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Post by Topper Gas on Apr 2, 2020 18:32:26 GMT
Things seem to be overheating on here today, and for everyone's sake I suggest a bit of calm. Everyone should reflect on what you are saying about others. And several others have missed a very important fact - despite the fact that KM was appointed to the Board of Bristol Rovers to represent the views of the SC, in fact he was, until he resigned, a Director of Bristol Rovers in his own right, (see Companies House) which does carry a responsibility under Company law. That responsibility is his, not the SC, and the liability is also his, which maybe not as extreme as indicated but with a Company with a massive shareholding, and a huge deficit there are all sorts of restrictions and penalties which can occur to an individual, bearing in mind the responsibility is to the shareholders of the Company. Fanatical 92% of the shareholders are the same ones that made the loans?? Where is the risk of any legal liability? Out of interest how do you know where the loans have come from? All we know is BRFC1883 owe nearly £20m to Dwane Sports, we've no idea who they owe that money to, it could be the ALQ's, or AJIB, or an unknown 3rd party, or a mixture of all three? As far as JC's statement I wonder if the concerns he's now raised were the reason the two leading Bristol businessmen apparently decided at the last minute not to take seats on the board at the weekend? That was all very strange and conveniently never mentioned by Wael's fan club on here.
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Post by wider on Apr 2, 2020 18:39:41 GMT
Besides the point re HMRC I believe directors can also be held personally responsible if a business continues trading beyond the point when it should become obvious that it is no longer financially viable. Was that point some time ago?
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Post by peterparker on Apr 2, 2020 19:17:59 GMT
Besides the point re HMRC I believe directors can also be held personally responsible if a business continues trading beyond the point when it should become obvious that it is no longer financially viable. Was that point some time ago? That would be the case for a lot of clubs though. They wouldnt be voing concerns I dont know what it says in latest accounts, but the Al Qadis (Hani) signed off they would fund the club through previous accounts.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2020 19:31:30 GMT
Fanatical 92% of the shareholders are the same ones that made the loans?? Where is the risk of any legal liability? Out of interest how do you know where the loans have come from? All we know is BRFC1883 owe nearly £20m to Dwane Sports, we've no idea who they owe that money to, it could be the ALQ's, or AJIB, or an unknown 3rd party, or a mixture of all three? As far as JC's statement I wonder if the concerns he's now raised were the reason the two leading Bristol businessmen apparently decided at the last minute not to take seats on the board at the weekend? That was all very strange and conveniently never mentioned by Wael's fan club on here. Topper For f**ks sake. You state that it is Dwayne Sports who loaned the money. The source of their funds is irrelevant when it comes to suggesting that a director of 1883 Ltd has a personal liability for loans made to 1883 Ltd. Think about it, are you being rational.?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2020 19:33:38 GMT
Besides the point re HMRC I believe directors can also be held personally responsible if a business continues trading beyond the point when it should become obvious that it is no longer financially viable. Was that point some time ago? Not if the directors make a commitment articulated in the accounts and stated in the same.
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Post by dragonfly on Apr 2, 2020 19:42:47 GMT
Why have the SC not taken legal action for the non delivery of the share certificates by DS? Around £120,000 has been paid to DS in 4 years for the purchase of shares in the "Share Scheme" on behalf of the Supporters within that Scheme and all that Jim Chappell has to say in his statement is that Scheme Members will have funds returned to them which had been paid over since the 31st March in the event that the certificates are not delivered and a discussion as to whether Members still wished to remain in the scheme. I cannot believe this is an oversight by DS and possibly they do not want Supporters holding more than the 8% which I assume would gradually increase in time. The SC seem to let DS walk all over them, especially regarding the fact that the Supporters have had no directorship representation for a whole year. I fear that The ALQ's may kill off BRFC and that day is looming on the horizon.
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Post by gasincider on Apr 2, 2020 19:45:05 GMT
I think everyone is missing the point.
Now that we have lost KM from the board there are now no Rovers fans on the board. What we have left is people who have increased the debt from £7m to £25 m in four years. KM has been a lifetime fan.It means that basically we have no chance of clearing the debt. In other words it can only go on increasing. That means there will only be one ending.
Remember, Ken has never sought or received payment from the club. He was the only unpaid director. Some have said he was in it for what he could get. Like what? He drove to every away game at his own expense to represent the club, and on many occasions, this season, he was the only one there. He also bought several season tickets to cover the cost of his seat in the directors box. So what was he in it for? A free meal? How many of you would drive 200 miles each way dressed up in your Rovers finest, to get a free meal. What else did he get out of it? Nothing. He even spent £10 k of his own money to resurrect the Community Trust which was about to fail. He's never wanted it back. So what was he doing it for? BECAUSE ITS HIS CLUB AND HE LOVES IT.
Never mind KM who despite asking what he had done wrong to lose his place has not had the courtesy of a response, The fans on here who concentrate on the KM issue are deliberately missing the only factor that matters. We are headed for bankruptcy. We cannot get enough people into our ground to reduce the debts, but of course Wael could convert them to shares. Will he? Not likely as he can't afford to.so there we have it.
The two new directors whose identities are known to me received an email from Wael to confirm their positions, and they were cancelled the following day, what a way to run a club. By the way, I have seen a copy of the email.
One dodgy area I can think of, is the matter of the share scheme. For almost two years money has been handed over to the club, (well over £100k)and despite many requests for share certificates, none have been forthcoming. As in Jims message this morning, even the share register at companies house has not been upgraded to evidence the additional shares. I can think of a couple of potential charges that could be laid in this respect. At last years AGM this was the first matter raised. Taylor Wessing who acted as co secretary (Mike Turner)were responsible for this aspect. And they were paid for the privilege.Yet here we are, another year on and nothing has happened.
You lot rant on about Ken and SH, and wait for another staged message from Bristol Live which as usual will be vetted by MS.
Meanwhile this club that we've all loved for so long is heading into Bankruptcy. Sometimes, our fans get the owners they deserve. I can't think of any other club where the fans would be so apathetic about what is going on around them.
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Apr 2, 2020 19:54:22 GMT
Love it.
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Post by fanboy on Apr 2, 2020 19:58:56 GMT
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Post by jongas1 on Apr 2, 2020 20:07:46 GMT
I think everyone is missing the point. Now that we have lost KM from the board there are now no Rovers fans on the board. What we have left is people who have increased the debt from £7m to £25 m in four years. KM has been a lifetime fan.It means that basically we have no chance of clearing the debt. In other words it can only go on increasing. That means there will only be one ending. Remember, Ken has never sought or received payment from the club. He was the only unpaid director. Some have said he was in it for what he could get. Like what? He drove to every away game at his own expense to represent the club, and on many occasions, this season, he was the only one there. He also bought several season tickets to cover the cost of his seat in the directors box. So what was he in it for? A free meal? How many of you would drive 200 miles each way dressed up in your Rovers finest, to get a free meal. What else did he get out of it? Nothing. He even spent £10 k of his own money to resurrect the Community Trust which was about to fail. He's never wanted it back. So what was he doing it for? BECAUSE ITS HIS CLUB AND HE LOVES IT. Never mind KM who despite asking what he had done wrong to lose his place has not had the courtesy of a response, The fans on here who concentrate on the KM issue are deliberately missing the only factor that matters. We are headed for bankruptcy. We cannot get enough people into our ground to reduce the debts, but of course Wael could convert them to shares. Will he? Not likely as he can't afford to.so there we have it. The two new directors whose identities are known to me received an email from Wael to confirm their positions, and they were cancelled the following day, what a way to run a club. By the way, I have seen a copy of the email. One dodgy area I can think of, is the matter of the share scheme. For almost two years money has been handed over to the club, (well over £100k)and despite many requests for share certificates, none have been forthcoming. As in Jims message this morning, even the share register at companies house has not been upgraded to evidence the additional shares. I can think of a couple of potential charges that could be laid in this respect. At last years AGM this was the first matter raised. Taylor Wessing who acted as co secretary (Mike Turner)were responsible for this aspect. And they were paid for the privilege.Yet here we are, another year on and nothing has happened. You lot rant on about Ken and SH, and wait for another staged message from Bristol Live which as usual will be vetted by MS. Meanwhile this club that we've all loved for so long is heading into Bankruptcy. Sometimes, our fans get the owners they deserve. I can't think of any other club where the fans would be so apathetic about what is going on around them. Why did the SC continue to give money under the scheme when not getting ‘receipts’ for their investment in the form of share certificates? Surely they should have stopped, just like any company paying for goods or services not received - you wouldn’t carry on regardless?? To knowingly let that continu and seemingly take no action, is that negligent or incompetent?
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Post by gasincider on Apr 2, 2020 20:18:11 GMT
I think everyone is missing the point. Now that we have lost KM from the board there are now no Rovers fans on the board. What we have left is people who have increased the debt from £7m to £25 m in four years. KM has been a lifetime fan.It means that basically we have no chance of clearing the debt. In other words it can only go on increasing. That means there will only be one ending. Remember, Ken has never sought or received payment from the club. He was the only unpaid director. Some have said he was in it for what he could get. Like what? He drove to every away game at his own expense to represent the club, and on many occasions, this season, he was the only one there. He also bought several season tickets to cover the cost of his seat in the directors box. So what was he in it for? A free meal? How many of you would drive 200 miles each way dressed up in your Rovers finest, to get a free meal. What else did he get out of it? Nothing. He even spent £10 k of his own money to resurrect the Community Trust which was about to fail. He's never wanted it back. So what was he doing it for? BECAUSE ITS HIS CLUB AND HE LOVES IT. Never mind KM who despite asking what he had done wrong to lose his place has not had the courtesy of a response, The fans on here who concentrate on the KM issue are deliberately missing the only factor that matters. We are headed for bankruptcy. We cannot get enough people into our ground to reduce the debts, but of course Wael could convert them to shares. Will he? Not likely as he can't afford to.so there we have it. The two new directors whose identities are known to me received an email from Wael to confirm their positions, and they were cancelled the following day, what a way to run a club. By the way, I have seen a copy of the email. One dodgy area I can think of, is the matter of the share scheme. For almost two years money has been handed over to the club, (well over £100k)and despite many requests for share certificates, none have been forthcoming. As in Jims message this morning, even the share register at companies house has not been upgraded to evidence the additional shares. I can think of a couple of potential charges that could be laid in this respect. At last years AGM this was the first matter raised. Taylor Wessing who acted as co secretary (Mike Turner)were responsible for this aspect. And they were paid for the privilege.Yet here we are, another year on and nothing has happened. You lot rant on about Ken and SH, and wait for another staged message from Bristol Live which as usual will be vetted by MS. Meanwhile this club that we've all loved for so long is heading into Bankruptcy. Sometimes, our fans get the owners they deserve. I can't think of any other club where the fans would be so apathetic about what is going on around them. Why did the SC continue to give money under the scheme when not getting ‘receipts’ for their investment in the form of share certificates? Surely they should have stopped, just like any company paying for goods or services not received - you wouldn’t carry on regardless?? To knowingly let that continu and seemingly take no action, is that negligent or incompetent? No. it's because like you they love our club and knew just how much they needed the money. In the end enough was enough.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2020 20:21:46 GMT
I think everyone is missing the point. Now that we have lost KM from the board there are now no Rovers fans on the board. What we have left is people who have increased the debt from £7m to £25 m in four years. KM has been a lifetime fan.It means that basically we have no chance of clearing the debt. In other words it can only go on increasing. That means there will only be one ending. Remember, Ken has never sought or received payment from the club. He was the only unpaid director. Some have said he was in it for what he could get. Like what? He drove to every away game at his own expense to represent the club, and on many occasions, this season, he was the only one there. He also bought several season tickets to cover the cost of his seat in the directors box. So what was he in it for? A free meal? How many of you would drive 200 miles each way dressed up in your Rovers finest, to get a free meal. What else did he get out of it? Nothing. He even spent £10 k of his own money to resurrect the Community Trust which was about to fail. He's never wanted it back. So what was he doing it for? BECAUSE ITS HIS CLUB AND HE LOVES IT. Never mind KM who despite asking what he had done wrong to lose his place has not had the courtesy of a response, The fans on here who concentrate on the KM issue are deliberately missing the only factor that matters. We are headed for bankruptcy. We cannot get enough people into our ground to reduce the debts, but of course Wael could convert them to shares. Will he? Not likely as he can't afford to.so there we have it. The two new directors whose identities are known to me received an email from Wael to confirm their positions, and they were cancelled the following day, what a way to run a club. By the way, I have seen a copy of the email. One dodgy area I can think of, is the matter of the share scheme. For almost two years money has been handed over to the club, (well over £100k)and despite many requests for share certificates, none have been forthcoming. As in Jims message this morning, even the share register at companies house has not been upgraded to evidence the additional shares. I can think of a couple of potential charges that could be laid in this respect. At last years AGM this was the first matter raised. Taylor Wessing who acted as co secretary (Mike Turner)were responsible for this aspect. And they were paid for the privilege.Yet here we are, another year on and nothing has happened. You lot rant on about Ken and SH, and wait for another staged message from Bristol Live which as usual will be vetted by MS. Meanwhile this club that we've all loved for so long is heading into Bankruptcy. Sometimes, our fans get the owners they deserve. I can't think of any other club where the fans would be so apathetic about what is going on around them. Why did the SC continue to give money under the scheme when not getting ‘receipts’ for their investment in the form of share certificates? Surely they should have stopped, just like any company paying for goods or services not received - you wouldn’t carry on regardless?? To knowingly let that continu and seemingly take no action, is that negligent or incompetent? It is often the case that the piece of paper that is a share certificate is issued punctually and often mislaid thereafter. Where Gasincider has a very strong point is the share register. If the contributions from the share scheme have not been properly updated with companies house a couple of things have happened. A) The balance sheet could be wrong so the share capital is understated. If so where is the cash accounted for? B) The Annual Return was wrong which is misrepresentation and could result in the company being struck off at Companies House.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2020 20:36:29 GMT
Just as a footnote, the annual returns are downloadable from companies house
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Post by singupgas on Apr 2, 2020 20:41:43 GMT
I think everyone is missing the point. Now that we have lost KM from the board there are now no Rovers fans on the board. What we have left is people who have increased the debt from £7m to £25 m in four years. KM has been a lifetime fan.It means that basically we have no chance of clearing the debt. In other words it can only go on increasing. That means there will only be one ending. Remember, Ken has never sought or received payment from the club. He was the only unpaid director. Some have said he was in it for what he could get. Like what? He drove to every away game at his own expense to represent the club, and on many occasions, this season, he was the only one there. He also bought several season tickets to cover the cost of his seat in the directors box. So what was he in it for? A free meal? How many of you would drive 200 miles each way dressed up in your Rovers finest, to get a free meal. What else did he get out of it? Nothing. He even spent £10 k of his own money to resurrect the Community Trust which was about to fail. He's never wanted it back. So what was he doing it for? BECAUSE ITS HIS CLUB AND HE LOVES IT. Never mind KM who despite asking what he had done wrong to lose his place has not had the courtesy of a response, The fans on here who concentrate on the KM issue are deliberately missing the only factor that matters. We are headed for bankruptcy. We cannot get enough people into our ground to reduce the debts, but of course Wael could convert them to shares. Will he? Not likely as he can't afford to.so there we have it. The two new directors whose identities are known to me received an email from Wael to confirm their positions, and they were cancelled the following day, what a way to run a club. By the way, I have seen a copy of the email. One dodgy area I can think of, is the matter of the share scheme. For almost two years money has been handed over to the club, (well over £100k)and despite many requests for share certificates, none have been forthcoming. As in Jims message this morning, even the share register at companies house has not been upgraded to evidence the additional shares. I can think of a couple of potential charges that could be laid in this respect. At last years AGM this was the first matter raised. Taylor Wessing who acted as co secretary (Mike Turner)were responsible for this aspect. And they were paid for the privilege.Yet here we are, another year on and nothing has happened. You lot rant on about Ken and SH, and wait for another staged message from Bristol Live which as usual will be vetted by MS. Meanwhile this club that we've all loved for so long is heading into Bankruptcy. Sometimes, our fans get the owners they deserve. I can't think of any other club where the fans would be so apathetic about what is going on around them. Hard to disagree with any of this....certainly how I feel. Fans should be more worried than they seem, but one day I fear the rug will be pulled from under neath us and then it will be too late to ask any question or make any noise on a match day. We should all pray that new owners will one day save us. Unfortunately I can't see the Al Qadis ever being that committed that they write of the debts, build training ground and a stadium. No sign of it in 4 years.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2020 21:10:14 GMT
A few observations and context:
There is no good reason why Taylor Wessing CoSec department cannot issue share certificates unless it is incompetent, or instructed not to for some reason by a Partner at the firm, or by the client.
As long as there is a 7% share scheme holding in BRFC, there needs to be a SC through which two new board members can be elected via the usual process (normally June every year, with a reappointment vote every three years - yes, KM has been reappointed at SC AGM's at least four times).
The SC is not fit for purpose in its current form. There needs to be a total overhaul of it committee. JC needs to stand down immediately following his statement earlier today (he didn't have the basic wherewithal to get a lawyer to read a draft).
But this could all be academic. The FC is no doubt awaiting news from the PFA/FA/EPL discussions tomorrow to see how monies might cascade down the pyramid to help save us and other lower league clubs. Be under no illusion. Unless there is a bail out from the top of the football pyramid, BRFC, and many other clubs, are sadly heading for extinction - such are the fine lines of finances, and ours are pretty poor, possibly verging on desperate.
And, obviously, none of this is as important as our individual and collective health. Today I went for my daily walk near my home which is 120 miles from Bristol. Couldn't believe my eyes. A youngish jogger coming the other way was wearing this season's away strip - now how bizarre was that?! UTG!
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Post by swissgas on Apr 2, 2020 21:24:45 GMT
The two new directors whose identities are known to me received an email from Wael to confirm their positions, and they were cancelled the following day, what a way to run a club. By the way, I have seen a copy of the email. I realise you won't want to name names but can you tell us any more about the two people involved ? The prospect of having some leading Bristol businessmen on-board would have given a glimmer of hope because we badly need some new vitality and fresh ideas and if they are Gasheads then all the better. But how would they have been investing in the club ? By acquiring shares from Dwane Sports in order to provide some financial return for Wael's brothers ? Through a share issue putting new cash into the club, perhaps to finance the player development plan, funding a training ground and extra coaching support for the manager ? Or would they have been more like the potential Fruit Market Developers and been brought in to facilitate a new stadium ?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2020 21:42:06 GMT
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