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Post by LJG on Apr 8, 2020 7:35:29 GMT
Yeah, that's a really long post to try and obfuscate the fact you're bullshitting. Share capital is not debt. It is simply not. It never has been. It never will be. You're trying to treat people like mugs. I'm afraid the repetition game doesn't work with provable facts. You just make yourself look more and more disingenuous. So, in less than 50 words if you can. When did the basic principles of accounting change to make share capital debt and not an asset? Not a big old splurge to try to keep up your obfuscation bollocks. Just in a few words answer that question. Since when did the most basic accounting principles change to categorise share capital as debt? I never said share capital was debt. You only have to look back to the previous page of this thread to see you have. The question on that page is where the £24m DEBT figure came from. Stuart says it's the capital and reserves. You say, not just once, that he's right. Well he's not right. Share capital is not debt. Then after that, you continually in reference to the question "where did the £24m DEBT come from" make reference to "the £24m figure". So you've clearly intimated several times that you agree there is 24m debt. On the accounts thread Gasincider continually refers to £24m debt and you say you never liked him before but people need to start listening to him now. You're just completely disingenuous.
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Post by peterparker on Apr 8, 2020 7:38:38 GMT
Check out Fleetwood
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Post by philbemmygas on Apr 8, 2020 7:39:02 GMT
I heard it was £42 Million. GasChatFact
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Post by stuart1974 on Apr 8, 2020 9:05:25 GMT
I never said share capital was debt. You only have to look back to the previous page of this thread to see you have. The question on that page is where the £24m DEBT figure came from. Stuart says it's the capital and reserves. You say, not just once, that he's right. Well he's not right. Share capital is not debt. Then after that, you continually in reference to the question "where did the £24m DEBT come from" make reference to "the £24m figure". So you've clearly intimated several times that you agree there is 24m debt. On the accounts thread Gasincider continually refers to £24m debt and you say you never liked him before but people need to start listening to him now. You're just completely disingenuous. I didn't say it was the Capital and Reserves, I said the figure of £24m can be found in that section which is perhaps why some are using it (incorrectly) as "our debt". i also went on to say that figure is offset by the shareholding. Not so much 'where did the £24m debt come from', more of 'why did some believe we were in debt by £24m', which we are not.
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Post by orgasmic on Apr 8, 2020 9:42:42 GMT
Not really a comparable club though are they?
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Post by axegas on Apr 8, 2020 10:18:07 GMT
That to me highlights why people are wrong when they argue that we should be beating teams like Fleetwood sheerly due to the fact we get larger crowds than them. If you compare the accounts, our turnovers are roughly the same and they spend more on wages, employ more staff and receive more financial backing. If anything we’re at a bit of a disadvantage.
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Post by fanatical on Apr 8, 2020 10:27:59 GMT
Having nothing else to do at the moment and certainly not being an expert in any way. If the major Shareholder (the ALQ’s) have a 92% holding of preferenced shares in the Club with a contractual non-discretionary payment of dividend or interest on the shares and the shares are redeemed at a later date, they are treated as an on going debt rather than equity. This is because there is a contractual obligation for the Company (themselves) to pay cash in the way of dividend or interest to the holder (themselves) of the preferenced shares if it hasn’t already been taken. The difference is, if the payment of dividend or interest on shares is discretionary it will not be shown in the accounts as a debt or liability - which doesn’t appear to be the case in this instance. Basically if there is a contractual obligation to pay cash on preferenced shares (non-discretionary) by way of dividend or interest at fair value at their point of issue - preferenced shares are shown as a liability. It may well that the owners have accrued the dividend/interest and not taken it to date. Just for information: The Memorial Stadium was purchased with the issuing of Preference shares (22 years ago with a promise by the Club to redeem them within 10 years, however the Club were unable to meet that timetable) Most of those shareholders redeemed the shares a few years ago, but some are still outstanding including to the Presidents Club and those shares attract interest which is added to the debt due to the Football Club being unable to pay the interest.
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Post by peterparker on Apr 8, 2020 10:43:58 GMT
Lets try and make this simple and clear as poss. (Figures rounded up to nearest 100k) I have left out the standard trade creditors/bills to concentrate on the numbers that really matter
Creditors (amount falling due inside a year) Group Undertakings £16.2m (This is the rolling credit facility from Dwane Sports, secured against The Mem, currently valued at £11.1m) Other Creditors £4.4m (not sure who or what this is)
Total creditors £20.6m
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Post by singupgas on Apr 8, 2020 12:22:58 GMT
I heard it was £42 Million. That could build a stadium.
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Post by Topper Gas on Apr 8, 2020 15:10:54 GMT
Lets try and make this simple and clear as poss. (Figures rounded up to nearest 100k) I have left out the standard trade creditors/bills to concentrate on the numbers that really matter Creditors (amount falling due inside a year) Group Undertakings £16.2m (This is the rolling credit facility from Dwane Sports, secured against The Mem, currently valued at £11.1m) Other Creditors £4.4m (not sure who or what this is) Total creditors £20.6m So we owe £4.4m to somebody other than DS, if so, I fear that's a bigger worry than the £16.2m we owe DS?
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Post by Parrot on Apr 8, 2020 15:40:00 GMT
Lets try and make this simple and clear as poss. (Figures rounded up to nearest 100k) I have left out the standard trade creditors/bills to concentrate on the numbers that really matter Creditors (amount falling due inside a year) Group Undertakings £16.2m (This is the rolling credit facility from Dwane Sports, secured against The Mem, currently valued at £11.1m) Other Creditors £4.4m (not sure who or what this is) Total creditors £20.6m So we owe £4.4m to somebody other than DS, if so, I fear that's a bigger worry than the £16.2m we owe DS? Could be director loans ?
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Post by Topper Gas on Apr 8, 2020 16:24:43 GMT
So we owe £4.4m to somebody other than DS, if so, I fear that's a bigger worry than the £16.2m we owe DS? Could be director loans ? I thought the old Directors loans were cleared and I can't see the present two Directors loaning us £4.4m?
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Post by peterparker on Apr 8, 2020 16:35:18 GMT
Lets try and make this simple and clear as poss. (Figures rounded up to nearest 100k) I have left out the standard trade creditors/bills to concentrate on the numbers that really matter Creditors (amount falling due inside a year) Group Undertakings £16.2m (This is the rolling credit facility from Dwane Sports, secured against The Mem, currently valued at £11.1m) Other Creditors £4.4m (not sure who or what this is) Total creditors £20.6m So we owe £4.4m to somebody other than DS, if so, I fear that's a bigger worry than the £16.2m we owe DS? Maybe it's Wael's personal money
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Post by stuart1974 on Apr 8, 2020 16:51:30 GMT
So we owe £4.4m to somebody other than DS, if so, I fear that's a bigger worry than the £16.2m we owe DS? Maybe it's Wael's personal money Accruals?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2020 17:29:55 GMT
Having nothing else to do at the moment and certainly not being an expert in any way. If the major Shareholder (the ALQ’s) have a 92% holding of preferenced shares in the Club with a contractual non-discretionary payment of dividend or interest on the shares and the shares are redeemed at a later date, they are treated as an on going debt rather than equity. This is because there is a contractual obligation for the Company (themselves) to pay cash in the way of dividend or interest to the holder (themselves) of the preferenced shares if it hasn’t already been taken. The difference is, if the payment of dividend or interest on shares is discretionary it will not be shown in the accounts as a debt or liability - which doesn’t appear to be the case in this instance. Basically if there is a contractual obligation to pay cash on preferenced shares (non-discretionary) by way of dividend or interest at fair value at their point of issue - preferenced shares are shown as a liability. It may well that the owners have accrued the dividend/interest and not taken it to date. Just for information: The Memorial Stadium was purchased with the issuing of Preference shares (22 years ago with a promise by the Club to redeem them within 10 years, however the Club were unable to meet that timetable) Most of those shareholders redeemed the shares a few years ago, but some are still outstanding including to the Presidents Club and those shares attract interest which is added to the debt due to the Football Club being unable to pay the interest. 50% was purchased via Preference Shares the other 50% was financed via a mortgage with Barclays which was repaid when Barclays called in the loan.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2020 17:31:24 GMT
So we owe £4.4m to somebody other than DS, if so, I fear that's a bigger worry than the £16.2m we owe DS? Could be director loans ? HMRC and trade creditors?
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Post by peterparker on Apr 8, 2020 17:41:01 GMT
Could be director loans ? HMRC and trade creditors? Its not trade creditors. I left that out of my figures as an 'operating expense' as it were. Just focusing on the two main figures Going back on the previous accounts, a large chunk will be accruals, so probably HMRC and...
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Post by stuart1974 on Apr 8, 2020 18:23:05 GMT
HMRC and trade creditors? Its not trade creditors. I left that out of my figures as an 'operating expense' as it were. Just focusing on the two main figures Going back on the previous accounts, a large chunk will be accruals, so probably HMRC and... Interest on the DS loan, insurances, unpaid instalments on player fees, utilities?
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Post by LJG on Apr 8, 2020 18:48:28 GMT
Its not trade creditors. I left that out of my figures as an 'operating expense' as it were. Just focusing on the two main figures Going back on the previous accounts, a large chunk will be accruals, so probably HMRC and... Interest on the DS loan, insurances, unpaid instalments on player fees, utilities? Toppers about to say something like "I can't see us having an electricity bill of £4m and my insurance is only £200".
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Post by stuart1974 on Apr 8, 2020 19:31:06 GMT
Interest on the DS loan, insurances, unpaid instalments on player fees, utilities? Toppers about to say something like "I can't see us having an electricity bill of £4m and my insurance is only £200". Oh I don't know, having been an nPower customer....😶
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