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Post by fintanstack on Apr 12, 2022 8:05:23 GMT
I have already answered that. The outcome is to maintain the status quo. Keep the rich rich and in power. Keep the majority stupid and entertained. It's been this way for 1000s of years. As with the Churchill quote, democracy is the least worse option but let's not pretend it has any more lofty ideals at its core. It's little more than a shared dictatorship. Ok, so whilst you are heavily critical, you are prepared to stand idly by and let the situation deteriorate further, which it has badly since 2016. Do you think your children will thank you for that? What would have me do? Lead a revolution? We are literally set up to fail. Many people voted for people like Trump, Johnson and now le Pen because they realize that they are not valued or listened to by the ruling elite. They want to fight back, give the establishment a bloody nose. Sadly, there are too many who blame them for that. I have read on here, comments about those who voted Brexit. (I didn't, before you ask) Instead of calling them thick or racist, why not try to engage and understand them. Politicians have learned nothing and changed nothing from a succession of bizarre shows of democracy. Seriously, in what world is it normal for Trump to become president? Just how bad must things have got? How poor were the other candidates from both parties? And what's changed? Biden is a geriatric who seems like he needs full time care, not his finger on the nuclear button. Macron is making all the same mistakes as Cameron did prior to brexit. That is why le Pen is doing as well as she is. Not a single lesson has been learned about the disenfranchised , the angry or the apathetic. The longer it goes on, the more voters will look to extremes to get the sense they are being listened to. The fault lies with the politicians, not voters. The answer also lies with them. We lack the means and the power to do anything other than keep making dreadful decisions at the polls before someone wakes up. I sense that most of you here actually agree with much of what I am saying but find my pessimism and cynicism too much. It is also very difficult to think that we are powerless to effect any real change, but if democracy only offers the useless and the nutcases, what more can we do within democracys framework?
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Post by fintanstack on Apr 12, 2022 8:07:24 GMT
Whereas the alternatives put that into practice. Examples? Because I've no idea what you are saying. Countries where democracy doesn't exist kill their own citizens regularly. This is a demonstrable fact. You do yourself no credit if you do not acknowledge that.
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stuart1974
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Post by stuart1974 on Apr 12, 2022 8:09:45 GMT
Whereas the alternatives put that into practice. Examples? Because I've no idea what you are saying. Not sure opponents in places like Hong Kong, Russia, China, North Korea, various Middle Eastern countries and when we had the dictatorships in Latin America and Eastern Europe, lasted long. Either imprisoned or went missing. You could go back further and include western countries too. Under the current system, you are allowed 'to speak truth unto power' and the press and cartoonists are free to mock. Could we do that in the places above without worrying about a knock on the door?
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Post by yattongas on Apr 12, 2022 8:19:55 GMT
Loving the defeatist attitudes on here , so much so that I’ve been persuaded to never vote again. Let’s just let the far right crack on and do as they please.
🇬🇧!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2022 8:24:13 GMT
Examples? Because I've no idea what you are saying. Countries where democracy doesn't exist kill their own citizens regularly. This is a demonstrable fact. You do yourself no credit if you do not acknowledge that. America kills its own citizens regularly lol
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2022 8:38:13 GMT
Examples? Because I've no idea what you are saying. Not sure opponents in places like Hong Kong, Russia, China, North Korea, various Middle Eastern countries and when we had the dictatorships in Latin America and Eastern Europe, lasted long. Either imprisoned or went missing. You could go back further and include western countries too. Under the current system, you are allowed 'to speak truth unto power' and the press and cartoonists are free to mock. Could we do that in the places above without worrying about a knock on the door? You've just listed places that were invaded/ colonised by the west. I don't share your simplified liberal outlook on world history, remember.
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Post by fintanstack on Apr 12, 2022 8:38:25 GMT
Countries where democracy doesn't exist kill their own citizens regularly. This is a demonstrable fact. You do yourself no credit if you do not acknowledge that. America kills its own citizens regularly lol Not for dissent.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2022 8:39:13 GMT
Loving the defeatist attitudes on here , so much so that I’ve been persuaded to never vote again. Let’s just let the far right crack on and do as they please. 🇬🇧! You're a lib dem mate.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2022 8:42:13 GMT
America kills its own citizens regularly lol Not for dissent. They have a corrupt prison system for taking care of that etc. What is you username on the other forum btw?
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stuart1974
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Post by stuart1974 on Apr 12, 2022 8:42:15 GMT
Not sure opponents in places like Hong Kong, Russia, China, North Korea, various Middle Eastern countries and when we had the dictatorships in Latin America and Eastern Europe, lasted long. Either imprisoned or went missing. You could go back further and include western countries too. Under the current system, you are allowed 'to speak truth unto power' and the press and cartoonists are free to mock. Could we do that in the places above without worrying about a knock on the door? You've just listed places that were invaded/ colonised by the west. I don't share your simplified liberal outlook on world history, remember. Your second sentence contradicts your first.
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Post by fintanstack on Apr 12, 2022 8:50:28 GMT
Loving the defeatist attitudes on here , so much so that I’ve been persuaded to never vote again. Let’s just let the far right crack on and do as they please. 🇬🇧! Another comment to knock a view because it's easier to do that than to listen, understand and challenge. Ironically, that's as dangerous as my view that change is next to impossible. When someone tells you your broken system is broken, you mock them and call them names rather than examine if they are correct. Credit to Oldie, he asked me what could be done to fix it. Unfortunately, I don't know but I do have an idea of the sorts of attitudes that makes it worse.
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Post by yattongas on Apr 12, 2022 8:51:25 GMT
Loving the defeatist attitudes on here , so much so that I’ve been persuaded to never vote again. Let’s just let the far right crack on and do as they please. 🇬🇧! Another comment to knock a view because it's easier to do that than to listen, understand and challenge. Ironically, that's as dangerous as my view that change is next to impossible. When someone tells you your broken system is broken, you mock them and call them names rather than examine if they are correct. Credit to Oldie, he asked me what could be done to fix it. Unfortunately, I don't know but I do have an idea of the sorts of attitudes that makes it worse. What names have I called you ?
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Post by fintanstack on Apr 12, 2022 8:56:32 GMT
Another comment to knock a view because it's easier to do that than to listen, understand and challenge. Ironically, that's as dangerous as my view that change is next to impossible. When someone tells you your broken system is broken, you mock them and call them names rather than examine if they are correct. Credit to Oldie, he asked me what could be done to fix it. Unfortunately, I don't know but I do have an idea of the sorts of attitudes that makes it worse. What names have I called you ? None on this thread. I have already referenced Trump, Brexit and Johnson earlier in the thread and I have seen how you have engaged with others who have not voted the way you would have liked. Again, I would not personally have voted for Trump, I did not vote for Johnson and I did not vote for Brexit but it is a mistake to fail to understand why people voted the way they did.
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stuart1974
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Post by stuart1974 on Apr 12, 2022 9:13:05 GMT
What names have I called you ? None on this thread. I have already referenced Trump, Brexit and Johnson earlier in the thread and I have seen how you have engaged with others who have not voted the way you would have liked. Again, I would not personally have voted for Trump, I did not vote for Johnson and I did not vote for Brexit but it is a mistake to fail to understand why people voted the way they did. Out of interest, did you vote at all or did you not bother? For me, I would rather someone voted differently to me than not at all as it's not voting that causes apathy and politicians' attitude towards the public. Spoilt ballots have to be counted, low turnout can be easily dismissed.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2022 9:14:04 GMT
You've just listed places that were invaded/ colonised by the west. I don't share your simplified liberal outlook on world history, remember. Your second sentence contradicts your first. Stuart!
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Post by yattongas on Apr 12, 2022 9:57:29 GMT
What names have I called you ? None on this thread. I have already referenced Trump, Brexit and Johnson earlier in the thread and I have seen how you have engaged with others who have not voted the way you would have liked. Again, I would not personally have voted for Trump, I did not vote for Johnson and I did not vote for Brexit but it is a mistake to fail to understand why people voted the way they did. 😇
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Post by fintanstack on Apr 12, 2022 11:05:59 GMT
None on this thread. I have already referenced Trump, Brexit and Johnson earlier in the thread and I have seen how you have engaged with others who have not voted the way you would have liked. Again, I would not personally have voted for Trump, I did not vote for Johnson and I did not vote for Brexit but it is a mistake to fail to understand why people voted the way they did. Out of interest, did you vote at all or did you not bother? For me, I would rather someone voted differently to me than not at all as it's not voting that causes apathy and politicians' attitude towards the public. Spoilt ballots have to be counted, low turnout can be easily dismissed. I always vote or spoil because both are counted. I voted remain but spoiled my General Election ballot last time out. I have Spoiled a small amount of times, I do normally vote. Voting should be compulsory but there should be "None of the above" option. Of course, that's in theory. I'm not sure how you could realistically enforce or police it.
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Post by yattongas on Apr 12, 2022 13:03:08 GMT
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Post by peterparker on Apr 12, 2022 13:43:53 GMT
Look there is a war on. didn't you see Johnson look all Prime Ministerial in Ukraine, we really must move on, something, something. something
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Post by yattongas on Apr 12, 2022 13:45:27 GMT
Look there is a war on. didn't you see Johnson look all Prime Ministerial in Ukraine, we really must move on, something, something. something Haha just heard that exact call on the radio 🙄
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