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Post by stuart1974 on Jul 17, 2022 17:58:45 GMT
I'm going to be a bit controvertial here, having grown up under Thatcher I really hated her. For me she sold off the family silver and brought in a period of 'greed is good' and the 'me, me, me' view of the world.
However, having had the opportunity to reflect and importantly judge her time with the benefit of seeing her in the context of the 1970s which I couldn't really as a schoolboy, I at least can understand how she came to power with the views she did. Still don't like her, especially for the division she sowed but my view has mellowed over time. I would certainly recommend watching Dominic Sandbrook's documentaries on the 1970s and on Thatcher.
In terms of Blair, the legacy of Iraq will overshadow all the good that his administration did. I also think there was a wasted opportunity with his majorities to make a few more reforms, especially around parliament. Prior to Iraq he had a good legacy, then blew it. Not just because of the war, but the whole aftermath.
I liked John Major but he led a fractured and incompetent government for 7 years. He still started many changes though, including lottery funding for sports leading to our successes in the Olympics and in Northern Ireland.
Never liked Gordon Brown, Cameron put party before country, May tried but failed.
Boris aside, for me the worst PM, post war anyway, would be Anthony Eden, Suez was such a mistake and it had great negative impacts on our international relationships.
Having said that, Boris is still the worst by a country mile. His only saving grace was his support for Ukraine but even that is mitigated by the red tape of visas for refugees.
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Post by francegas on Jul 17, 2022 18:04:07 GMT
So you were happy for your taxes to continue funding loss making businesses. Depends on whether the benefit outweighs the problem. How much would it have made to my tax per year? £5? How much does it cost to me per flight being privatised? It’s also very narrow minded to look at a business not making profit and say “sell it”. It’s now making profit as you say, so in reality it tells you the government was poor at business. Remind me which party it was ruling at the time? Do you think having any service nationalised makes that a communist country then? Not 100% correct. It was in 1979 (when Thatcher came to power) that the government first announced plans to sell a stake in BA. The full privatisation went through in 1987. So I would say it was due to the poor running of BA under the previous Labour Governments of Wilson and Callaghan that led to the decision in 79 to sell a stake in it. In answer to your last question no but what companies would you be happy to be nationalised? |
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Post by francegas on Jul 17, 2022 18:08:45 GMT
Can only compare with France as I have no idea about other countries. In 2019 state owned SNCF posted a €800 million loss. Not sure of 2020 but an improved 2021 showed a net loss €185 million. I can get cheap rail tickets to Paris providing I book exactly 3 months to the day in advance otherwise it's very expensive. Who generally knows they will travel to a specific city 3 months in advance?. So using your stated logic, the French government should close their railway system, surely? Now your being silly Oldie. The UK government never closed the railway system they "Privatised" it. Same as with the coal mines etc |
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Post by oldie on Jul 17, 2022 18:16:32 GMT
I'm going to be a bit controvertial here, having grown up under Thatcher I really hated her. For me she sold off the family silver and brought in a period of 'greed is good' and the 'me, me, me' view of the world. However, having had the opportunity to reflect and importantly judge her time with the benefit of seeing her in the context of the 1970s which I couldn't really as a schoolboy, I at least can understand how she came to power with the views she did. Still don't like her, especially for the division she sowed but my view has mellowed over time. I would certainly recommend watching Dominic Sandbrook's documentaries on the 1970s and on Thatcher. In terms of Blair, the legacy of Iraq will overshadow all the good that his administration did. I also think there was a wasted opportunity with his majorities to make a few more reforms, especially around parliament. Prior to Iraq he had a good legacy, then blew it. Not just because of the war, but the whole aftermath. I liked John Major but he led a fractured and incompetent government for 7 years. He still started many changes though, including lottery funding for sports leading to our successes in the Olympics and in Northern Ireland. Never liked Gordon Brown, Cameron put party before country, May tried but failed. Boris aside, for me the worst PM, post war anyway, would be Anthony Eden, Suez was such a mistake and it had great negative impacts on our international relationships. Having said that, Boris is still the worst by a country mile. His only saving grace was his support for Ukraine but even that is mitigated by the red tape of visas for refugees. I was 27 when Thatcher was elected. The new government was not just about her, her whole government was a nasty, right wing government. My elected MP, Beaconsfield South, Ronald Bell, openly advocated invading Rhodesia (Zimbabwe) to put the white government of Ian Smith back into power. But the seeds of what went wrong in the 1970s can be traced back the wildly inflationary budget of 1972, set by the then Chancellor Anthony Barber, under the premiership of Edward Heath. The subsequent inflation and fiscal ill discipline after Callaghan took over in 1976 led to the run on the pound and the imposed IMF loan conditions which led to the unrest that opened the door for Thatcher and her crude interpretation of the economic theories of Frederick Hayek. That crudity repeated on here by Francegas who, in reality should look at factual history. |
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Post by oldie on Jul 17, 2022 18:17:54 GMT
So using your stated logic, the French government should close their railway system, surely? Now your being silly Oldie. The UK government never closed the railway system they "Privatised" it. Same as with the coal mines etc But what private sector company is going to take on loss making enterprises? To quote you "Just a question.... if you owned loss making businesses what would you do with them. Carry on making loss after loss or get rid?" |
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Post by francegas on Jul 17, 2022 18:23:14 GMT
Now your being silly Oldie. The UK government never closed the railway system they "Privatised" it. Same as with the coal mines etc But what private sector company is going to take on loss making enterprises? Well it worked for the loss making British Rail. |
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Post by francegas on Jul 17, 2022 18:24:18 GMT
Now your being silly Oldie. The UK government never closed the railway system they "Privatised" it. Same as with the coal mines etc But what private sector company is going to take on loss making enterprises? To quote you "Just a question.... if you owned loss making businesses what would you do with them. Carry on making loss after loss or get rid?" Yes by get rid I mean sell them off. |
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Post by yattongas on Jul 17, 2022 18:45:27 GMT
I'm going to be a bit controvertial here, having grown up under Thatcher I really hated her. For me she sold off the family silver and brought in a period of 'greed is good' and the 'me, me, me' view of the world. However, having had the opportunity to reflect and importantly judge her time with the benefit of seeing her in the context of the 1970s which I couldn't really as a schoolboy, I at least can understand how she came to power with the views she did. Still don't like her, especially for the division she sowed but my view has mellowed over time. I would certainly recommend watching Dominic Sandbrook's documentaries on the 1970s and on Thatcher. In terms of Blair, the legacy of Iraq will overshadow all the good that his administration did. I also think there was a wasted opportunity with his majorities to make a few more reforms, especially around parliament. Prior to Iraq he had a good legacy, then blew it. Not just because of the war, but the whole aftermath. I liked John Major but he led a fractured and incompetent government for 7 years. He still started many changes though, including lottery funding for sports leading to our successes in the Olympics and in Northern Ireland. Never liked Gordon Brown, Cameron put party before country, May tried but failed. Boris aside, for me the worst PM, post war anyway, would be Anthony Eden, Suez was such a mistake and it had great negative impacts on our international relationships. Having said that, Boris is still the worst by a country mile. His only saving grace was his support for Ukraine but even that is mitigated by the red tape of visas for refugees. Do you know of a good documentary on the Suez affair on Netflix or wherever ? Gotta be honest it was a bit before my time ……. By at least 20 yrs . |
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Post by francegas on Jul 17, 2022 18:56:12 GMT
I'm going to be a bit controvertial here, having grown up under Thatcher I really hated her. For me she sold off the family silver and brought in a period of 'greed is good' and the 'me, me, me' view of the world. However, having had the opportunity to reflect and importantly judge her time with the benefit of seeing her in the context of the 1970s which I couldn't really as a schoolboy, I at least can understand how she came to power with the views she did. Still don't like her, especially for the division she sowed but my view has mellowed over time. I would certainly recommend watching Dominic Sandbrook's documentaries on the 1970s and on Thatcher. In terms of Blair, the legacy of Iraq will overshadow all the good that his administration did. I also think there was a wasted opportunity with his majorities to make a few more reforms, especially around parliament. Prior to Iraq he had a good legacy, then blew it. Not just because of the war, but the whole aftermath. I liked John Major but he led a fractured and incompetent government for 7 years. He still started many changes though, including lottery funding for sports leading to our successes in the Olympics and in Northern Ireland. Never liked Gordon Brown, Cameron put party before country, May tried but failed. Boris aside, for me the worst PM, post war anyway, would be Anthony Eden, Suez was such a mistake and it had great negative impacts on our international relationships. Having said that, Boris is still the worst by a country mile. His only saving grace was his support for Ukraine but even that is mitigated by the red tape of visas for refugees. Do you know of a good documentary on the Suez affair on Netflix or wherever ? Gotta be honest it was a bit before my time ……. By at least 20 yrs . And the problem is  Yet I'm expected to know about the Chancellor Anthony Barber and his Budget of 1972 when I was 7 years old. |
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Post by oldie on Jul 17, 2022 18:56:15 GMT
But what private sector company is going to take on loss making enterprises? Well it worked for the loss making British Rail. That France is completely detached from reality. It has not worked for UK rail service providers, it has not worked for the population, either as taxpayers or/and be as passengers. To quote "Overall, railway privatisation has failed to achieve its original objectives. Fares and state subsidies remain high, passengers are failing to obtain better value for money and industry unit costs remain stubbornly high. No other country has fully adopted the UK model of railway privatisation" |
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Post by oldie on Jul 17, 2022 18:57:58 GMT
Do you know of a good documentary on the Suez affair on Netflix or wherever ? Gotta be honest it was a bit before my time ……. By at least 20 yrs . And the problem is Yet I'm expected to know about the Chancellor Anthony Barber and his Budget of 1972 when I was 7 years old. To understand where we are you have to understand how we got here. Age nor ignorance is an excuse. |
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Post by francegas on Jul 17, 2022 18:58:45 GMT
Do you know of a good documentary on the Suez affair on Netflix or wherever ? Gotta be honest it was a bit before my time ……. By at least 20 yrs . And the problem is Yet I'm expected to know about the Chancellor Anthony Barber and his Budget of 1972 when I was 7 years old. Apologies Yatton no idea idea where those emojis came from I certainly didn't add them. |
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Post by yattongas on Jul 17, 2022 19:00:27 GMT
And the problem is Yet I'm expected to know about the Chancellor Anthony Barber and his Budget of 1972 when I was 7 years old. Apologies Yatton no idea idea where those emojis came from I certainly didn't add them. No worries . No idea why you’re replying to me or what you’re on about! 😂 |
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Post by stuart1974 on Jul 17, 2022 19:12:30 GMT
Do you know of a good documentary on the Suez affair on Netflix or wherever ? Gotta be honest it was a bit before my time ……. By at least 20 yrs . And the problem is Yet I'm expected to know about the Chancellor Anthony Barber and his Budget of 1972 when I was 7 years old. The point Oldie is making, and one I've advocated many times, is that events cannot be seen in isolation. Few events happen within a vacuum. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Jul 17, 2022 19:14:35 GMT
Did anyone watch the ITV debate? I only caught a bit, seemed to be four against Sunak.
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Post by Gassy on Jul 17, 2022 19:15:05 GMT
Depends on whether the benefit outweighs the problem. How much would it have made to my tax per year? £5? How much does it cost to me per flight being privatised? It’s also very narrow minded to look at a business not making profit and say “sell it”. It’s now making profit as you say, so in reality it tells you the government was poor at business. Remind me which party it was ruling at the time? Do you think having any service nationalised makes that a communist country then? Not 100% correct. It was in 1979 (when Thatcher came to power) that the government first announced plans to sell a stake in BA. The full privatisation went through in 1987. So I would say it was due to the poor running of BA under the previous Labour Governments of Wilson and Callaghan that led to the decision in 79 to sell a stake in it. In answer to your last question no but what companies would you be happy to be nationalised? Fair point, but they were making profit already in 1981 - so why did Thatcher keep selling it off? No company now would want to be nationalised, I don't really see what point you're trying to make? I'm talking about not having companies nationalised in the first place. You mentioned French Rail earlier and specifically gave no prices - which I thought was interesting, so I did a quick google. If I was to take a train from Nantes to Paris next Monday to get to the city for 9ish, how much would it set me back? £68 according to snfc. Blackpool to London is about the same distance in miles and its £139 - both trains actually get to the capital exactly at 09:08am. Blackpool is 8 miles further, but takes 44 minutes longer and has a change too. Then I thought I'd check what it is in 2 months time (as the UK didn't have even tickets 3 months in advance) - French one was £30 2nd class and £35 1st class. Not quite sure how but UK was £189 for a single 2 months in advance! (Genuinely shocked). With some napkin maths - if the French rail service lost 800m last year and 40m people are paying tax, that works out £20 per tax payer per year, spread across 12 months. So in 1 journey alone, I'd be making a profit from my tax knowing I'd be paying and contributing to our country, rather than making the rich richer. Then you have to remember that the train standards are generally much better in France. Then don't forget that since Covid we've bailed out private train companies £7 billion, so we're really just getting a lose/lose situation. Honestly, who wouldn't want a nationalised train service? Serious question. |
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Post by oldie on Jul 17, 2022 19:34:14 GMT
And the problem is Yet I'm expected to know about the Chancellor Anthony Barber and his Budget of 1972 when I was 7 years old. The point Oldie is making, and one I've advocated many times, is that events cannot be seen in isolation. Few events happen within a vacuum. Thank you Stuart. Don't you get tired of these myopic rants from right wing Brexiteers? I am sure France is a thoroughly decent bloke who it would be good to share a beer with, but it is hard to be polite sometimes. |
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Post by oldie on Jul 17, 2022 19:35:24 GMT
Did anyone watch the ITV debate? I only caught a bit, seemed to be four against Sunak. I did. How desperately bad was that. Liz Truss is beyond awful. |
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Post by yattongas on Jul 17, 2022 19:55:05 GMT
Did anyone watch the ITV debate? I only caught a bit, seemed to be four against Sunak. Yep just watched it on record . Mourdant did a little better than the other night , Truss as awful as ever. Sunak is obvs the smoothest but got away with over speaking multiple times. Sunak …………………………….winner Mourdant ……………………….second Badenouch , Tudendhat ..joint third Truss ………………………………ninety third . |
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Post by francegas on Jul 17, 2022 19:56:07 GMT
And the problem is Yet I'm expected to know about the Chancellor Anthony Barber and his Budget of 1972 when I was 7 years old. To understand where we are you have to understand how we got here. Age nor ignorance is an excuse. Whilst I would agree with that I suppose your fully aware of the economic policy of the labour government of 1924 then. |
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