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Post by warehamgas on Jun 26, 2020 14:56:33 GMT
Well oldie, you are correct in trying to scrutinise, hold and highlight the faults of this government. That always needs to be done, whatever the persuasion of the government of the day. And whilst individuals will do this I’m not sure where else any effective scrutiny will come from. The BBC is obviously walking a tightrope over their criticism of the government. Laura K and other political commentators can talk strongly in podcasts and news items but have little opportunity to really question BJ and the ministers. He just avoids it, says no and sends out his ministers. Most questions are returned with an answer that isn't a real answer to the question posed but fills in a few minutes until their time is up and few get any opportunities to follow up. When Emily M on Newsnight gave, perhaps unwisely ultimately, her views on this government she was unceremoniously told off by her masters. The BBC are aware of their vulnerabilities with these people in power just when the new licence is coming up. Sky appear to do more scrutiny but with a more limited audience. ITV, I don’t really know, rarely listening to them.
Parliament, well PMQs will get interesting now with a credible alternative questioning BJ and someone who is more adroit linguistically against frankly, a fairly slow-witted PM who turns around to get support from his own side too often without having the intelligence or wits to combat his opponents himself. There is plenty of scrutiny out there on the internet with academics, journalists and the written media all endeavouring to hold him to account but in the end these methods have a very small circulation, and is a narrow community which rarely reaches a wider audience.
In the interests of balance although i consider BJ to be not the most articulate nor intelligent of politicians he does have a very good political radar of what people want. He has distilled what people want into a simple political mo. He will provide jobs, housing, not tax too much, keep the EU as a high-profile bogeyman, the cause of many of our problems, provide national jingoism when needed and feed the fears of many people. He will invoke the spirit of Churchill when it’s needed and try and show that the Conservatives are the party of law and order. By doing all these things he will, has, appealed to enough people to get himself elected. So whilst not overly intelligent he is very politically-savvy.
Consequently, I think this government will concentrate on the ends that they have been advocating: Brexit, large infrastructure projects (railways, roads housing), full employment, new trade agreements with the world. The means of how they are achieved won’t matter and I’m not even sure BJ will worry if he has to mislead (or worse) to achieve the ends he’s seeking. He will, of course be mightily “annoyed” when he or his ministers are caught out, such as Cummings, Jenrick or Raab, but he won’t worry too much imo. This is a PM without much of a conscience who wants to say the right thing to assuage his supporters or his critics but I doubt you’ll hear much detail coming from him, it will be largely generalities, platitudes and ideas which could be interpreted any which way. The detail of Brexit, trade agreements and the rest could be brushed over and signed off without any real consideration of how advantageous they are for the UK. Their existence will be enough I suspect.
We heard about the Nixon Tapes at Watergate I suspect the Johnson Tapes detailing his methods of armchair government would be equally damning.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2020 8:32:30 GMT
I fell about laughing this morning listening to interviews with both Starmer and members of Johnson's cabinet, debating the DEGREE to which an implementation of a Keynesian response to the looming economic disaster is required. I can understand Starmer arguing for it, Labour always did. But to hear Johnson's boys and girls shouting about how much they are going to spend...well it's laughable when referenced against the back drop of the austerity policies of the last ten years.
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Post by trevorgas on Jun 29, 2020 8:41:10 GMT
I fell about laughing this morning listening to interviews with both Starmer and members of Johnson's cabinet, debating the DEGREE to which an implementation of a Keynesian response to the looming economic disaster is required. I can understand Starmer arguing for it, Labour always did. But to hear Johnson's boys and girls shouting about how much they are going to spend...well it's laughable when referenced against the back drop of the austerity policies of the last ten years. Ah Les god loves a .........
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2020 8:47:39 GMT
I fell about laughing this morning listening to interviews with both Starmer and members of Johnson's cabinet, debating the DEGREE to which an implementation of a Keynesian response to the looming economic disaster is required. I can understand Starmer arguing for it, Labour always did. But to hear Johnson's boys and girls shouting about how much they are going to spend...well it's laughable when referenced against the back drop of the austerity policies of the last ten years. Ah Les god loves a ......... Hindsight?
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Post by trevorgas on Jun 29, 2020 9:00:15 GMT
Ah Les god loves a ......... Hindsight? Sinner
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2020 9:03:10 GMT
Or a son that enters the temple and cast out those that bought and sold and overthrew the tables of money changers.
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Post by trevorgas on Jun 29, 2020 9:05:43 GMT
Or a son that enters the temple and cast out those that bought and sold and overthrew the tables of money changers. Unfortunately that didn't end well!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2020 9:22:51 GMT
Or a son that enters the temple and cast out those that bought and sold and overthrew the tables of money changers. Unfortunately that didn't end well! As BLM members can attest.
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Post by warehamgas on Jun 29, 2020 13:55:02 GMT
I fell about laughing this morning listening to interviews with both Starmer and members of Johnson's cabinet, debating the DEGREE to which an implementation of a Keynesian response to the looming economic disaster is required. I can understand Starmer arguing for it, Labour always did. But to hear Johnson's boys and girls shouting about how much they are going to spend...well it's laughable when referenced against the back drop of the austerity policies of the last ten years. I didn’t hear the piece (on Today?) so difficult to comment on the particulars but the general point I will. It’s become clearer and clearer that the government has found itself between a rock and a hard place with the challenges that this crisis has provided for them. Whilst it is ironic that after the last 10 years we have a Conservative government who seem to be spending money all over the place they have been forced into the actions they have. It hasn’t been a principled decision it’s been forced on them. Also I’m not sure that the actions of BJ has anything in common with those of David Cameron or Theresa May. The only common thing is the name conservative. He will do things his way, not the conservative way. He was elected to get them out of the Brexit hole. Once he’s done that he will become vulnerable to them wanting a more conservative approach. I don’t think BJ is principled or attached to any kind of financial policy. It’s BJ policy and will take elements from different ideas. He’s not a Keynesian or a Monetarist economist. Cameron and Osborne must be ranting at their TVs and radios thinking why did we bother. Of course Starmer will agree to that, it’s what they’ve been advocating since 2010. Cameron looked at the overall balance sheet and the social results of what he tried to do. BJ isn’t interested in that he wants to see big results in terms of infrastructure, he wants to see something concrete and tangible and the means to achieve it arent important to him, it’s all about the ends, the final result. So he will be prepared to do what the Labour Party has been advocating and make it his policy. It will be interesting as Starmer can’t really come out and criticise him when it’s been what the Labour Party has been advocating. Whereas Thatcher, Blair (to an extent), Brown, Cameron and perhaps Macdonald could make a strong attempt at explaining and justifying an economic policy, whether Keynesian or more Monetarist, Johnson would just confuse himself, not understand what he was talking about and come over as a bigger buffoon than Charles Kennedy did in that election when he tried to explain his Liberal taxation policy. It was a car crash of an interview from which he never recovered. BJ will not put himself in that position, he knows that he cant explain detail. He knows what people wan5 and is prepared to do it irrespective of how much it costs. He has a more pragmatic approach to it and will see big projects as attracting investment, employment and being good for the country. Even Roosevelt and Trueman in America did something similar with elements of Keynesian economics to spend their way out of a depression in the 30s and 40s. So I don’t think it’s that strange that this government are doing it but as you say it’s a bit different from what’s been happening since 2010. Certainly ironic.
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Post by Gassy on Jun 30, 2020 17:12:25 GMT
Did anyone hear Boris' speech earlier?
I have to say, I thought it was probably his best one.
Everything he said made sense, he admitted the faults (and successes) of the previous Tory government and Covid reaction. Good on him for doing that.
Of course, actions do speak louder than words - but it certainly did make me feel a tad optimistic.
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Post by warehamgas on Jun 30, 2020 21:52:05 GMT
Yes gassy I agree. It did make sense and the situation played to BJs strengths. He was able to talk big picture stuff, talk up big projects, talk about the things he’s enthusiastic about, projects, big infrastructure spending and keeping people in jobs. And he was able to talk about it in the manner he enjoys, little need for detail, few pressing questions and generally talking about the final ends of projects. He gave no detail about the means of achieving them, he will leave that to Rishi Sunak to give the unpopular details and any possible tax implications when he has to give more detail at some point.
That is BJs speciality, making people feel better and feel as if there is a way out of this crisis. He did much the same about Brexit. We were in a hole that TM was unable to resolve, he came in and resolved it. Perhaps not in a way that everyone will want but he gave a way forward which is now being dealt with by the negotiators. He will hope the Covid 19 crisis will slowly pass and he is now on to the next stage, the recovery. Unless he is collared by Starmer in PMQs about Covid I would expect him to leave that to other ministers esp Matt Hancock. That way BJ avoids the scrutiny and questioning whilst Matt Hancock may still get it in the neck.
I thought it was also noticeable that Keir Starmer was the least effective I’ve seen over the past two weeks. As I said in my previous post he was left looking for crumbs to moan about because what BJ has suggested is more or less the course the Labour Party has been advocating. Whilst BJ does this it will be increasingly hard for Starmer to lay a glove on him.
BJs actions today were an almost perfect example of his modus operandi, knowing his audience and knowing how to please them, give them what they wanted to hear.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2020 23:01:09 GMT
Did anyone hear Boris' speech earlier? I have to say, I thought it was probably his best one. Everything he said made sense, he admitted the faults (and successes) of the previous Tory government and Covid reaction. Good on him for doing that. Of course, actions do speak louder than words - but it certainly did make me feel a tad optimistic. They promised to build 400,000 affordable homes remember? What did we get? 1,500 luxury flats on the isle of dogs dogged (pun intended) by the smell of kickbacks to Tory donors. If you believe this lot are going to save the country then it’s time for me to blow the dust off that prospectus for the beach front property in Iowa that I was going to sell to nobby. Also, a round of applause for the magic money tree ladies and gentlemen- the real star of the show. Who would have thought that after all the mockery of Corbyn it would be the Tories who actually found it and made use of it first. I see no-one is taking the water now though are they? It turns out Marxism is chuffing brilliant- the trick is to getting the proletariat to embrace it is to stick a blue rosette on it...
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Post by warehamgas on Jul 1, 2020 9:12:33 GMT
Did anyone hear Boris' speech earlier? I have to say, I thought it was probably his best one. Everything he said made sense, he admitted the faults (and successes) of the previous Tory government and Covid reaction. Good on him for doing that. Of course, actions do speak louder than words - but it certainly did make me feel a tad optimistic. They promised to build 400,000 affordable homes remember? What did we get? 1,500 luxury flats on the isle of dogs dogged (pun intended) by the smell of kickbacks to Tory donors. If you believe this lot are going to save the country then it’s time for me to blow the dust off that prospectus for the beach front property in Iowa that I was going to sell to nobby. Also, a round of applause for the magic money tree ladies and gentlemen- the real star of the show. Who would have thought that after all the mockery of Corbyn it would be the Tories who actually found it and made use of it first. I see no-one is taking the water now though are they? It turns out Marxism is chuffing brilliant- the trick is to getting the proletariat to embrace it is to stick a blue rosette on it... Well 365 I guess he’s another 4 years to find the other 398,500 homes! Yes it’s another irony isn’t it, for years the conservatives pilloried the Labour Party for their money tree and yet lo and behold BJ knew where it was all the time! But I guess extraordinary circumstances (covid) call for extraordinary solutions (furlough and spending). Actually, I think BJ is copying the American solution after the war in the 1940s rather than the Labour Party when they spent their way out of the problems of the war. But I think you’re looking at politics in terms of left and right and traditional politics whereas BJ doesn’t fit into any compartment comfortably. Im sure his own side will be as puzzled and perhaps worried as the other side. As we’ve seen over the past few days with the civil service changes at the top don’t expect the normal with Boris. He wants to be radical and shake up government and I suspect there’s a few more ironies to come yet for you to be shouting about.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2020 9:16:35 GMT
365 is spot on with his critique. All the usual baying hounds are very quiet on this...I wonder why?
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Post by trevorgas on Jul 1, 2020 9:41:01 GMT
They promised to build 400,000 affordable homes remember? What did we get? 1,500 luxury flats on the isle of dogs dogged (pun intended) by the smell of kickbacks to Tory donors. If you believe this lot are going to save the country then it’s time for me to blow the dust off that prospectus for the beach front property in Iowa that I was going to sell to nobby. Also, a round of applause for the magic money tree ladies and gentlemen- the real star of the show. Who would have thought that after all the mockery of Corbyn it would be the Tories who actually found it and made use of it first. I see no-one is taking the water now though are they? It turns out Marxism is chuffing brilliant- the trick is to getting the proletariat to embrace it is to stick a blue rosette on it... Well 365 I guess he’s another 4 years to find the other 398,500 homes! Yes it’s another irony isn’t it, for years the conservatives pilloried the Labour Party for their money tree and yet lo and behold BJ knew where it was all the time! But I guess extraordinary circumstances (covid) call for extraordinary solutions (furlough and spending). Actually, I think BJ is copying the American solution after the war in the 1940s rather than the Labour Party when they spent their way out of the problems of the war. But I think you’re looking at politics in terms of left and right and traditional politics whereas BJ doesn’t fit into any compartment comfortably. Im sure his own side will be as puzzled and perhaps worried as the other side. As we’ve seen over the past few days with the civil service changes at the top don’t expect the normal with Boris. He wants to be radical and shake up government and I suspect there’s a few more ironies to come yet for you to be shouting about. I find the whole debate around spending and it's corbyness all a bit tedious,we live in Consumer/Demand economy and the way to stimulate that is to start spending money on infrastructure,it generates jobs and puts money in pockets. I don't care who's idea it was or is as long as they get on with it. Corbyn is a small footnote in history whereas this crisis is written large and requires imagination and will if we are to prevent a sustained downturn.
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Post by Gassy on Jul 1, 2020 10:24:18 GMT
You're all right. FWIW, I'm not saying I believe in them to deliver.. More than it was a good speech and he actually admitted faults from Tories. FINALLY. Step 1 complete.
When was the last time a Tory government didn't blame Labour of 2008 for all of their problems?
Boris has set the tone of what he wants to do, I'll give him the opportunity to do it. If he does, then great. If not, which is more likely, then he'll be gone.
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Post by warehamgas on Jul 1, 2020 10:43:22 GMT
You're all right. FWIW, I'm not saying I believe in them to deliver.. More than it was a good speech and he actually admitted faults from Tories. FINALLY. Step 1 complete. When was the last time a Tory government didn't blame Labour of 2008 for all of their problems? Boris has set the tone of what he wants to do, I'll give him the opportunity to do it. If he does, then great. If not, which is more likely, then he'll be gone. And that’s it in a nutshell. If BJ delivers and he has 4 years to do it, he will be re-elected if he doesn’t and Starmer can present himself as a better alternative he won’t. As I’ve banged on about it, BJ is all about the ends not means to get there. But he needs to deliver.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2020 10:47:24 GMT
You're all right. FWIW, I'm not saying I believe in them to deliver.. More than it was a good speech and he actually admitted faults from Tories. FINALLY. Step 1 complete. When was the last time a Tory government didn't blame Labour of 2008 for all of their problems? Boris has set the tone of what he wants to do, I'll give him the opportunity to do it. If he does, then great. If not, which is more likely, then he'll be gone. Can't wait for all the austerity supporters to admit they were wrong...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2020 10:50:33 GMT
You're all right. FWIW, I'm not saying I believe in them to deliver.. More than it was a good speech and he actually admitted faults from Tories. FINALLY. Step 1 complete. When was the last time a Tory government didn't blame Labour of 2008 for all of their problems? Boris has set the tone of what he wants to do, I'll give him the opportunity to do it. If he does, then great. If not, which is more likely, then he'll be gone. And that’s it in a nutshell. If BJ delivers and he has 4 years to do it, he will be re-elected if he doesn’t and Starmer can present himself as a better alternative he won’t. As I’ve banged on about it, BJ is all about the ends not means to get there. But he needs to deliver. Has he articulated an "end" which is coherent and stands scrutiny. Loads of bluster, arm waiving and throw away comment, but a properly constructed plan with measurable outcomes? I have not heard it.
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Post by brads213 on Jul 1, 2020 11:14:47 GMT
In Boris we trust
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