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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2020 11:41:24 GMT
Well 365 I guess he’s another 4 years to find the other 398,500 homes! Yes it’s another irony isn’t it, for years the conservatives pilloried the Labour Party for their money tree and yet lo and behold BJ knew where it was all the time! But I guess extraordinary circumstances (covid) call for extraordinary solutions (furlough and spending). Actually, I think BJ is copying the American solution after the war in the 1940s rather than the Labour Party when they spent their way out of the problems of the war. But I think you’re looking at politics in terms of left and right and traditional politics whereas BJ doesn’t fit into any compartment comfortably. Im sure his own side will be as puzzled and perhaps worried as the other side. As we’ve seen over the past few days with the civil service changes at the top don’t expect the normal with Boris. He wants to be radical and shake up government and I suspect there’s a few more ironies to come yet for you to be shouting about. I find the whole debate around spending and it's corbyness all a bit tedious,we live in Consumer/Demand economy and the way to stimulate that is to start spending money on infrastructure,it generates jobs and puts money in pockets. I don't care who's idea it was or is as long as they get on with it. Corbyn is a small footnote in history whereas this crisis is written large and requires imagination and will if we are to prevent a sustained downturn. Absolutely, but but I do think it’s appropriate to point out that the critics of spending are nowhere to be seen after Corbyn was pilloried very personally for his spending plans. This isn’t a new policy post CV either. The Tories had promised a big spending increase as part of their election manifesto and it was not heckled nearly as much as Corbyn (although yes, free broadband etc was a bit “out there”). I agree with the spending and to address Warehams point yes Boris will do what his own popularity dictates he do as opposed to doing what a typical Tory might do...but at the end of the day he is still Eton educated and from a privileged background so forgive me for thinking that first and foremost he will still be putting the interests of the privileged elite ahead of the jobless single parent who needs to work to feed their child. They have made an utter balls up of the pandemic and we are heading for a no deal brexit so Boris needs to hit the next delivery to him out of the park for a home run to bring some much needed succour and comfort to the worst off who (obviously) are suffering disproportionately to Boris and his friends. Let’s see what he can come up with. |
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Post by Gassy on Jul 1, 2020 12:13:09 GMT
You're all right. FWIW, I'm not saying I believe in them to deliver.. More than it was a good speech and he actually admitted faults from Tories. FINALLY. Step 1 complete. When was the last time a Tory government didn't blame Labour of 2008 for all of their problems? Boris has set the tone of what he wants to do, I'll give him the opportunity to do it. If he does, then great. If not, which is more likely, then he'll be gone. Can't wait for all the austerity supporters to admit they were wrong... You're all right. FWIW, I'm not saying I believe in them to deliver.. More than it was a good speech and he actually admitted faults from Tories. FINALLY. Step 1 complete. When was the last time a Tory government didn't blame Labour of 2008 for all of their problems? Boris has set the tone of what he wants to do, I'll give him the opportunity to do it. If he does, then great. If not, which is more likely, then he'll be gone. And that’s it in a nutshell. If BJ delivers and he has 4 years to do it, he will be re-elected if he doesn’t and Starmer can present himself as a better alternative he won’t. As I’ve banged on about it, BJ is all about the ends not means to get there. But he needs to deliver. Completely agree with both posts. I must admit as I was walking, listening to the speech yesterday, I did think to myself - they must have found Corbyn's magic money tree that doesn't exist. It also made me smile that he used the term austerity, which they were trying to distance from during the campaign. One thing I will give Boris credit for, is that he will really try to get this done. I do trust him to try his best. However, he'll have to also take responsibility if he doesn't. |
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Post by warehamgas on Jul 1, 2020 12:51:49 GMT
And that’s it in a nutshell. If BJ delivers and he has 4 years to do it, he will be re-elected if he doesn’t and Starmer can present himself as a better alternative he won’t. As I’ve banged on about it, BJ is all about the ends not means to get there. But he needs to deliver. Has he articulated an "end" which is coherent and stands scrutiny. Loads of bluster, arm waiving and throw away comment, but a properly constructed plan with measurable outcomes? I have not heard it. Well, the end, my word, will be the houses he’s promised to build, the roads and railways he wants to build, the new trade that will come out of Brexit, the jobs he wants to create and the “independence” that comes with Brexit (whatever that means). Does it stand scrutiny? Don’t know and I’m not sure we’ll find out because BJ won’t present himself for scrutiny. He’ll bumble his way through PMQs, avoid any tough questioning 1 to 1 (as he did in the election) and will work to the plan Cummings has laid out in terms of governing. Economically I’m not sure there is any real coherent plan unless Sunak comes up with one in the next few weeks. And if Sunak does it probably won’t be BJs plan and there will be no real intention to keep to it. His bluster, arm waving and general, inarticulate ramblings makes it difficult to see any plan if there is one, but they’re hoping Sunak is writing one as we speak. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2020 12:56:20 GMT
I’ll judge him on his response to the housing crisis- it all comes back to affordable homes now more than ever as hard working people have lost their jobs, will be facing eviction and all the issues stemming from an over reliance on a capitalist free market private renting sector at the expense of affordable housing will be coming home to roost.
We need more affordable housing and we need more social housing NOW.
Will Boris deliver it?
Of course he won’t- it’s not in the interests of a vast proportion of his voters (the landlord and home owner class) to deliver it.
Everything else he does is just noise, really.
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Post by warehamgas on Jul 1, 2020 13:07:26 GMT
365, I haven’t quoted because it makes it a very long post, but your point about him still being Eton educated and he will look after his own is valid. I was not protecting him from that and it is a valid point. Yes of course he will look after his own and you’ve only got to look at the Jenrick/ housing debacle on the estuary to realise that. Rules will be waived for certain “friends” on the pretext of building more homes. Again it’s all about the ends not the means.
His stance on education has been an even bigger concern. I wonder if his children or children of ministers in the cabinet were attending state schools whether they would have been so happy with not starting schools up again. I’m not sure of the facts here so I won’t make too many assertions as to whether the children of cabinet ministers are at schools where they are open again but it would be interesting to know. The cabinet caved in to pressure to stop children getting educated but he was able to withstand that pressure over Cummings and Jenrick, twice.
And as for the recent report on the decreasing level of social mobility and the poverty gap, I suspect that has been kicked into the long grass already. So no, I don’t trust him either 365, all I’ve really done in this whole thread is try to identify how this government works and what drives him (them) and try to identify his way of working.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2020 13:08:08 GMT
I’ll judge him on his response to the housing crisis- it all comes back to affordable homes now more than ever as hard working people have lost their jobs, will be facing eviction and all the issues stemming from an over reliance on a capitalist free market private renting sector at the expense of affordable housing will be coming home to roost. We need more affordable housing and we need more social housing NOW. Will Boris deliver it? Of course he won’t- it’s not in the interests of a vast proportion of his voters (the landlord and home owner class) to deliver it. Everything else he does is just noise, really. So far That is exactly the impression he gives. Useless expressions like "Build Build Build", very embarrassing. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2020 14:07:10 GMT
365, I haven’t quoted because it makes it a very long post, but your point about him still being Eton educated and he will look after his own is valid. I was not protecting him from that and it is a valid point. Yes of course he will look after his own and you’ve only got to look at the Jenrick/ housing debacle on the estuary to realise that. Rules will be waived for certain “friends” on the pretext of building more homes. Again it’s all about the ends not the means. His stance on education has been an even bigger concern. I wonder if his children or children of ministers in the cabinet were attending state schools whether they would have been so happy with not starting schools up again. I’m not sure of the facts here so I won’t make too many assertions as to whether the children of cabinet ministers are at schools where they are open again but it would be interesting to know. The cabinet caved in to pressure to stop children getting educated but he was able to withstand that pressure over Cummings and Jenrick, twice. And as for the recent report on the decreasing level of social mobility and the poverty gap, I suspect that has been kicked into the long grass already. So no, I don’t trust him either 365, all I’ve really done in this whole thread is try to identify how this government works and what drives him (them) and try to identify his way of working. I think we are on the same page Wareham  |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2020 14:11:47 GMT
I’ll judge him on his response to the housing crisis- it all comes back to affordable homes now more than ever as hard working people have lost their jobs, will be facing eviction and all the issues stemming from an over reliance on a capitalist free market private renting sector at the expense of affordable housing will be coming home to roost. We need more affordable housing and we need more social housing NOW. Will Boris deliver it? Of course he won’t- it’s not in the interests of a vast proportion of his voters (the landlord and home owner class) to deliver it. Everything else he does is just noise, really. So far That is exactly the impression he gives. Useless expressions like "Build Build Build", very embarrassing. The cult of personality in full effect, one wonders whether he is trying to literally ape his own “education education education” mantra. On the one hand I *want* to believe because as Wareham said he has enough of the maverick about him to be his own PM and he cares about approval enough to perhaps deviate from what is expected of a Tory PM. But then you look at how hardline his cabinet is and you look at his education and his lying etc and it deflates any optimism I have. If it was Rory Stewart saying the same things I’d be right behind him. As it’s Boris I struggle to believe a word of it and fully expect us to be wondering what this commitment to spending has actually achieved in 5 years time. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2020 14:16:41 GMT
So far That is exactly the impression he gives. Useless expressions like "Build Build Build", very embarrassing. The cult of personality in full effect, one wonders whether he is trying to literally ape his own “education education education” mantra. On the one hand I *want* to believe because as Wareham said he has enough of the maverick about him to be his own PM and he cares about approval enough to perhaps deviate from what is expected of a Tory PM. But then you look at how hardline his cabinet is and you look at his education and his lying etc and it deflates any optimism I have. If it was Rory Stewart saying the same things I’d be right behind him. As it’s Boris I struggle to believe a word of it and fully expect us to be wondering what this commitment to spending has actually achieved in 5 years time. Totally. The pathetic thing is, he actually believes what he is saying (I believe). The look of pained anguish on his face every time Starmer skewers him on the detail at PMQs is a picture. Like a naughty boy who hasn't done his homework. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2020 6:45:41 GMT
I’ll judge him on his response to the housing crisis- it all comes back to affordable homes now more than ever as hard working people have lost their jobs, will be facing eviction and all the issues stemming from an over reliance on a capitalist free market private renting sector at the expense of affordable housing will be coming home to roost. We need more affordable housing and we need more social housing NOW. Will Boris deliver it? Of course he won’t- it’s not in the interests of a vast proportion of his voters (the landlord and home owner class) to deliver it. Everything else he does is just noise, really. 316 new flats being built in bedminster, ALL of them But to Let, 21 being built for affordable housing. The UK economy relies on an over inflated housing market, gov won't do anything that could have an negative affect on that. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2020 8:27:45 GMT
I’ll judge him on his response to the housing crisis- it all comes back to affordable homes now more than ever as hard working people have lost their jobs, will be facing eviction and all the issues stemming from an over reliance on a capitalist free market private renting sector at the expense of affordable housing will be coming home to roost. We need more affordable housing and we need more social housing NOW. Will Boris deliver it? Of course he won’t- it’s not in the interests of a vast proportion of his voters (the landlord and home owner class) to deliver it. Everything else he does is just noise, really. 316 new flats being built in bedminster, ALL of them But to Let, 21 being built for affordable housing. The UK economy relies on an over inflated housing market, gov won't do anything that could have an negative affect on that. Housing ownnership in the UK, is one of the, if not the, biggest con schemes ever conceived. |
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Post by warehamgas on Jul 2, 2020 10:55:41 GMT
So far That is exactly the impression he gives. Useless expressions like "Build Build Build", very embarrassing. The cult of personality in full effect, one wonders whether he is trying to literally ape his own “education education education” mantra. On the one hand I *want* to believe because as Wareham said he has enough of the maverick about him to be his own PM and he cares about approval enough to perhaps deviate from what is expected of a Tory PM. But then you look at how hardline his cabinet is and you look at his education and his lying etc and it deflates any optimism I have. If it was Rory Stewart saying the same things I’d be right behind him. As it’s Boris I struggle to believe a word of it and fully expect us to be wondering what this commitment to spending has actually achieved in 5 years time. Yes, the cult of personality is very strong. He is very unlike TM and David C and I have very little concrete evidence for this assertion but having written the biography of Churchill I do believe he is trying to ape the man in his speeches. Low on detail, high on big ideas, big on nationalism, big on “we can do this together.” I almost think he sees himself as a modern day Churchill faced with a major problem. Just as Churchill was undone by Attlee who had a detailed answer for the people in 1945 so BJ will need to be careful that he could’ve undone by a moderate Starmer with a detailed, costed programme that is credible in 4 years time. Now he can get away with his bluster, in 4 years time he may not. Personality only goes so far esp when the alternative could present a credible programme. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2020 13:02:28 GMT
Housing ownnership in the UK, is one of the, if not the, biggest con schemes ever conceived. Buy a home worth 11 times your annual salary (before tax), Work til you are 65+, remain in debt, retire, sell/rent your house & get your kids to pay £1000 per week for your care home treatment, hope another pandemic doesn't happen whilst you are under care. The dream of 95% of this country. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2020 13:05:42 GMT
Housing ownnership in the UK, is one of the, if not the, biggest con schemes ever conceived. Buy a home worth 11 times your annual salary (before tax), Work til you are 65+, remain in debt, retire, sell/rent your house & get your kids to pay £1000 per week for your care home treatment, hope another pandemic doesn't happen whilst you are under care. The dream of 95% of this country. Through the narrow prism of my perspective, it's worse than that. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2020 16:53:21 GMT
I’ll judge him on his response to the housing crisis- it all comes back to affordable homes now more than ever as hard working people have lost their jobs, will be facing eviction and all the issues stemming from an over reliance on a capitalist free market private renting sector at the expense of affordable housing will be coming home to roost. We need more affordable housing and we need more social housing NOW. Will Boris deliver it? Of course he won’t- it’s not in the interests of a vast proportion of his voters (the landlord and home owner class) to deliver it. Everything else he does is just noise, really. 316 new flats being built in bedminster, ALL of them But to Let, 21 being built for affordable housing. The UK economy relies on an over inflated housing market, gov won't do anything that could have an negative affect on that. Ffs 🤦♂️ We need an end to this buy to let sh**- coronavirus is going to prove that when the evictions start and people can’t find new rental housing because the private landlord class won’t accept tenants on UC. The whole insecure housing sector (because that’s precisely what all renting is) needs complete reform. A storm is coming. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2020 17:04:33 GMT
Housing ownnership in the UK, is one of the, if not the, biggest con schemes ever conceived. I kind of agree- to be honest there should be more freedom of choice, that’s the issue. I want to buy a house simply because of the security it affords, the fact you aren’t throwing money down a drain and you aren’t at the mercy of someone else’s whims. If rents were actually competitive vs the cost of a mortgage it would be a far more palatable proposition and even a lifestyle choice. But in actuality the out of control rents make it a trap that you can’t escape from. To give an illustration: where I live the rents are so high for one bed flats that even on what should be a comfortable wage in any other part of the country here a one bed flat will take up half your monthly salary just for rent. By contrast I can get a two bed flat for that money in Bristol (and we all know Bristol ain’t cheap either). The cost of goods and services is more expensive too so you aren’t left with any spare change to save and get out of this sodding trap where you are losing half your income just on rent alone never mind council tax etc. And yet the family in social housing next door are paying a pittance for the same type of property. It’s total bollocks. Wages haven’t kept up with mortgages and they have kept up even less with the rampant profiteering in the rental market. As a second example: I went on a (socially distanced) date with a girl recently who owns a flat in a town a good distance outside the city where I live. She’s got a flat she’s bought and she’s thinking of living with a friend and renting her place out. Her mortgage is £600 a month and she thinks she can get between £1000 and £1200 a month for it even though it’s nowhere near the centre of town where the jobs are! £400+ profit on your mortgage! The whole buy to let thing wateres me off no end. Of course we need a rental sector, but we don’t need the grossly bloated, unregulated mess of rampant profiteering out of other people’s poverty and inability to afford a mortgage deposit like we are seeing now. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2020 17:11:37 GMT
Housing ownnership in the UK, is one of the, if not the, biggest con schemes ever conceived. Buy a home worth 11 times your annual salary (before tax), Work til you are 65+, remain in debt, retire, sell/rent your house & get your kids to pay £1000 per week for your care home treatment, hope another pandemic doesn't happen whilst you are under care. The dream of 95% of this country. The dream is to be gifted the money to buy a second property, install some other poor sod who is poor to live there and pay your mortgage for you then kick them out when you reach 65, sell the house for much more than you paid for it and use that money as your pension fund. This is exactly why, as you said earlier, the government dare not mess with the system. Imagine if they pumped a load of houses into the economy in the same way they mess with the value of the currency through quantitative easing. The housing market would collapse- everyone fears negative equity. If these people bought their homes for life negative equity wouldn’t be a problem but as it’s a speculator’s market with people flipping houses all the time negative equity is the core issue that Tory governments in particular need to guard against. Hence why they haven’t built those 400,000 affordable homes but they are building luxury flats. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2020 17:36:30 GMT
Buy a home worth 11 times your annual salary (before tax), Work til you are 65+, remain in debt, retire, sell/rent your house & get your kids to pay £1000 per week for your care home treatment, hope another pandemic doesn't happen whilst you are under care. The dream of 95% of this country. The dream is to be gifted the money to buy a second property, install some other poor sod who is poor to live there and pay your mortgage for you then kick them out when you reach 65, sell the house for much more than you paid for it and use that money as your pension fund. This is exactly why, as you said earlier, the government dare not mess with the system. Imagine if they pumped a load of houses into the economy in the same way they mess with the value of the currency through quantitative easing. The housing market would collapse- everyone fears negative equity. If these people bought their homes for life negative equity wouldn’t be a problem but as it’s a speculator’s market with people flipping houses all the time negative equity is the core issue that Tory governments in particular need to guard against. Hence why they haven’t built those 400,000 affordable homes but they are building luxury flats. Yeah, the financial sector seems confident there won't be another 2008 recession caused by bankers & housing, but they can't really predict an ecological disaster, war or a different scandal decimating the economy. Personally think buy to let as a retirement scheme is morally and ethically wrong but everyone is doing it as pensions are becoming worthless. Greed is a dominant human instinct unfortunately. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2020 18:28:02 GMT
The dream is to be gifted the money to buy a second property, install some other poor sod who is poor to live there and pay your mortgage for you then kick them out when you reach 65, sell the house for much more than you paid for it and use that money as your pension fund. This is exactly why, as you said earlier, the government dare not mess with the system. Imagine if they pumped a load of houses into the economy in the same way they mess with the value of the currency through quantitative easing. The housing market would collapse- everyone fears negative equity. If these people bought their homes for life negative equity wouldn’t be a problem but as it’s a speculator’s market with people flipping houses all the time negative equity is the core issue that Tory governments in particular need to guard against. Hence why they haven’t built those 400,000 affordable homes but they are building luxury flats. Yeah, the financial sector seems confident there won't be another 2008 recession caused by bankers & housing, but they can't really predict an ecological disaster, war or a different scandal decimating the economy. Personally think buy to let as a retirement scheme is morally and ethically wrong but everyone is doing it as pensions are becoming worthless. Greed is a dominant human instinct unfortunately. Yeah I think we can all empathise with why it’s happening, I saw a reference to Blair and Brown earlier for their unregulation of BTL and Brown’s attack on the pensions which meant investing in property became far more attractive and housing prices have soared from there. Yet more evidence of how New Labour are responsible in part for some of the poor social mobility issues we are experiencing today. But it’s like everything in life- in moderation BTL is fine, even needed as people need temporary homes for convenience for all sorts of reasons. But it should be capped- 2/3 houses at most. What we’ve ended up with is rich people with “property portfolios” (and footballers are a big actor in that sector) who build their ‘business’ and livelihoods around owning as many houses as they can get their hands on. They even have the cheek to call themselves “entrepreneurs” when buying more housing stock just because you can is about as basic bitch in terms of inventive ways to make money that there is. That’s the problem with the whole system- it takes no real intelligence it just takes a certain amount of money and a certain amount of privilege ( that gets you that money in the first place) and then once you’ve got two houses it snowballs and you can invest in more and more and then if you’re a real horrible bastard you convert those houses into HMOs and charge £500 a month for a bedroom in a house with a rotating cast of characters who live with you. The whole system is rotten to the core. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2020 19:08:55 GMT
Yeah, the financial sector seems confident there won't be another 2008 recession caused by bankers & housing, but they can't really predict an ecological disaster, war or a different scandal decimating the economy. Personally think buy to let as a retirement scheme is morally and ethically wrong but everyone is doing it as pensions are becoming worthless. Greed is a dominant human instinct unfortunately. Yeah I think we can all empathise with why it’s happening, I saw a reference to Blair and Brown earlier for their unregulation of BTL and Brown’s attack on the pensions which meant investing in property became far more attractive and housing prices have soared from there. Yet more evidence of how New Labour are responsible in part for some of the poor social mobility issues we are experiencing today. But it’s like everything in life- in moderation BTL is fine, even needed as people need temporary homes for convenience for all sorts of reasons. But it should be capped- 2/3 houses at most. What we’ve ended up with is rich people with “property portfolios” (and footballers are a big actor in that sector) who build their ‘business’ and livelihoods around owning as many houses as they can get their hands on. They even have the cheek to call themselves “entrepreneurs” when buying more housing stock just because you can is about as basic bitch in terms of inventive ways to make money that there is. That’s the problem with the whole system- it takes no real intelligence it just takes a certain amount of money and a certain amount of privilege ( that gets you that money in the first place) and then once you’ve got two houses it snowballs and you can invest in more and more and then if you’re a real horrible bastard you convert those houses into HMOs and charge £500 a month for a bedroom in a house with a rotating cast of characters who live with you. The whole system is rotten to the core. I agree with the fact there is a problem, but not your solution. We do not need to constrict supply by punishing the private sector, we need to expand supply by more public sector building of social housing. That in itself will put downward pressure on house price and therefore affordability. You are right, absolutely, that a flexible rental market is needed to supply the younger, more job mobile population. Which is where a quality private sector provision kicks in. But trying to squeeze hard pressed families into that very sector, which is what we are doing doesn't work and costs the taxpayer oodles in in-work benefits. The economics of the madhouse. |
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