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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2020 16:01:16 GMT
I have my suspicions that you didn't even know that Barack Obama had built and used these detention centres. Makes sense as when Baggins asked "Did he use them", you liked the comment. I have my suspicions that you thought Trump had built them, hence why you seemed to get the hump when I informed you who did build them. Like I said to Oldie, it's as though you want to throw your so called morals out the window, just so you can bash Donald Trump. I have been balanced all the way through. I'll freely admit I had no knowledge of them before they hit the news recently. Again, what difference does that make? Why are you so keen to justify what even you admit is inhumane because 'well someone else did it'. Maybe you're not bias and maybe you're every bit as balanced as you say. Answer this then. Who's responsibility is it today, right now, that that inhumane treatment of children is allowed to happen in the USA today? Who has the power to stop it? Who does nothing? Obama or Trump? Oh and on the subject of 'likes', Eric you're so transparent its laughable. Feel free to report me to the mods for inappropriate Use of the like buttons. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2020 18:55:47 GMT
No you didn't I provided the median income figures by demographic break down. But no matter. I think you are either flying a kite or actually don't know what you are talking about. For example you said "The main reason why the US was an already growing economy is because it was coming out of a Great Recession, naturally it was going to grow" Sure. But by the time Trump was elected that recession had been long past and the US had caught up and surpassed it's 2008 GDP. For the six years before Trump GDP grew like this, by year. 2010. 2.56% 2011. 1.55% 2012. 2.25% 2013. 1.84% 2014. 2.45% 2015. 2.88% 2016. 1.57% Then Trump Years 2017. 2.27% 2018. 3.18% 2019. 2.33% Source: World Bank However when Trump came into office the National Debt stood at $19,573 Billion At the end of 2019 it stood at $22,719 billion. That's an additional $3,146 billion. Now I could understand that if Trump had inherited a catastrophe as Obama did at the end of 2008, and had to spend to dig the economy out of a hole. But he did not, he inherited a growing economy, one that had grown every year for the previous six years. Why does any of this matter? Besides the obvious economic distortion this brings (asset bubbles etc) Trump and his supporters sing his praises on economic matters, when in fact the dark cloud of spiralling national debt and inflated asset values tell a very different story. So if he is sh** at economic management, if, as even his supporters seem to concede, his domestic policies are sh**, if he is a complete charlatan when managing his private business, why on earth would anyone vote for such an idiot. The mind boggles Yes I did Oldie, What I said was that the majority of the Black population of the US fall into the "Middle Class" category, used by the Brookings Future of the Middle Class Initiative’s definition, where 61.2% of Black Americans fall into that. I also said that the term "Middle Class" in the US, is vague. I also broke it down in numbers, too. I also said that White's are not top of the Median table, Asian Americans(Korean, Chinese, Japanese origins etc) are top in pretty much every sector. I never once said that Blacks were "Well off in America", again like I asked you before if you could find any quote or statement I made that even remotely resembles me saying anything like that, I'd be extremely grateful. You're contradicting himself again, You say "Trump supporters sing his praises on economic matters", yet in the next paragraph you state If he's sh*t at economic management, as even his supporters seem to concede".....So which one is it? Also i've never once said i'm a Trump supporter, you're just making stuff up again, I guess you just choose to ignore the several times i've stated he shouldn't be anywhere near the presidency and that he's a . I did however list good things which he has done while president. You can't get away from the fact the reason the American economy improved was because the economy always improves when theres a recession, the deeper the recession the higher the bounce back, I do find it odd, regarding your stances from the George Floyd thread on Race, Equality and Social Justice that you yet again seem to want to throw your supposed morals out the window and completely ignore and disregard that Black unemployment has been at an all time low, the wealth gap has got lower between Black & White households under Trump, by pretty much every economic measure Black people suffered far more under Obama's leadership. Again, all about balance, you won't give credit for that? Why would people want to vote for an idiot? Like i've said before probably because of the opposition. Biden is also an idiot, who as i've pointed out has a history of racist quotes, Crime Bills that have effected and incarcerated many Black Americans, cosying up with White Supremacists and Segregationists, giving eulogy's at their funerals etc,etc. Unsubstantiated BS. You are welcome to your views, but you cannot substantiate them. No third party references, no statistics, nothing. Fair enough I will leave it there |
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Post by Gastafari on Oct 3, 2020 19:31:04 GMT
Yes I did Oldie, What I said was that the majority of the Black population of the US fall into the "Middle Class" category, used by the Brookings Future of the Middle Class Initiative’s definition, where 61.2% of Black Americans fall into that. I also said that the term "Middle Class" in the US, is vague. I also broke it down in numbers, too. I also said that White's are not top of the Median table, Asian Americans(Korean, Chinese, Japanese origins etc) are top in pretty much every sector. I never once said that Blacks were "Well off in America", again like I asked you before if you could find any quote or statement I made that even remotely resembles me saying anything like that, I'd be extremely grateful. You're contradicting himself again, You say "Trump supporters sing his praises on economic matters", yet in the next paragraph you state If he's sh*t at economic management, as even his supporters seem to concede".....So which one is it? Also i've never once said i'm a Trump supporter, you're just making stuff up again, I guess you just choose to ignore the several times i've stated he shouldn't be anywhere near the presidency and that he's a . I did however list good things which he has done while president. You can't get away from the fact the reason the American economy improved was because the economy always improves when theres a recession, the deeper the recession the higher the bounce back, I do find it odd, regarding your stances from the George Floyd thread on Race, Equality and Social Justice that you yet again seem to want to throw your supposed morals out the window and completely ignore and disregard that Black unemployment has been at an all time low, the wealth gap has got lower between Black & White households under Trump, by pretty much every economic measure Black people suffered far more under Obama's leadership. Again, all about balance, you won't give credit for that? Why would people want to vote for an idiot? Like i've said before probably because of the opposition. Biden is also an idiot, who as i've pointed out has a history of racist quotes, Crime Bills that have effected and incarcerated many Black Americans, cosying up with White Supremacists and Segregationists, giving eulogy's at their funerals etc,etc. Unsubstantiated BS. You are welcome to your views, but you cannot substantiate them. No third party references, no statistics, nothing. Fair enough I will leave it there Are you for real? I gave you statistics, I've mentioned Brookings as a third party reference above and namechecked their definition. Grover also posted a link from them, see, as I keep saying BALANCE. What else is there to substantiate on my part? All you've managed to substantiate is that you just make stuff up, and that your supposed morals are nothing but a bullshit facade, as you're willing to completely disregard them just as long as you can bash Donald Trump. |
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Post by blueridge on Oct 3, 2020 20:14:59 GMT
I didn't say that at all. Just like Oldie, you seem to be getting confused and completely making stuff up. I didn't say that Black people were well off in America, I said that the majority actually fall into the "Middle Class" bracket, which I also said was incredibly vague as to what the "Middle Class" is. I also know and stated that Blacks are lowest in terms of Median income, White's are not top of the Median income table either. No you didn't I provided the median income figures by demographic break down. But no matter. I think you are either flying a kite or actually don't know what you are talking about. For example you said "The main reason why the US was an already growing economy is because it was coming out of a Great Recession, naturally it was going to grow" Sure. But by the time Trump was elected that recession had been long past and the US had caught up and surpassed it's 2008 GDP. For the six years before Trump GDP grew like this, by year. 2010. 2.56% 2011. 1.55% 2012. 2.25% 2013. 1.84% 2014. 2.45% 2015. 2.88% 2016. 1.57% Then Trump Years 2017. 2.27% 2018. 3.18% 2019. 2.33% Source: World Bank However when Trump came into office the National Debt stood at $19,573 Billion At the end of 2019 it stood at $22,719 billion. That's an additional $3,146 billion. Now I could understand that if Trump had inherited a catastrophe as Obama did at the end of 2008, and had to spend to dig the economy out of a hole. But he did not, he inherited a growing economy, one that had grown every year for the previous six years. Why does any of this matter? Besides the obvious economic distortion this brings (asset bubbles etc) Trump and his supporters sing his praises on economic matters, when in fact the dark cloud of spiralling national debt and inflated asset values tell a very different story. So if he is sh** at economic management, if, as even his supporters seem to concede, his domestic policies are sh**, if he is a complete charlatan when managing his private business, why on earth would anyone vote for such an idiot. The mind boggles Don’t get me wrong here Oldie but does any of this really matter? I have little or no time for Trump but with a Country that ‘owns’ it’s own currency and prints it’s own money and is never likely to be in a position where it is unable to service its debts, I struggle to understand that this is a big issue. Particularly, where I can only guess that the latest $1trn you’ve mention earlier is likely to be used in part for the next stimulus package earmarked for the autumn which effectively benefits just about every US citizen. The US debt ratio to GDP is lower than 3/4 countries in the EU who do not ‘own’ their currency and these countries will struggle to service their debts. Presumably control of any major monetary stimulus into the US economy is controlled by Congress anyway and is outside of Trump’s control. Japan as another example, and like the US, own and print their own currency has a debt ratio to GDP far in excess of any ‘major’ country on the planet including the US, and is the second highest contributor to the World Bank - but not too many economist’s appear to be bothered. I really don’t see a problem but this may be a too simplistic analogy. |
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Post by William Wilson on Oct 4, 2020 7:51:22 GMT
No you didn't I provided the median income figures by demographic break down. But no matter. I think you are either flying a kite or actually don't know what you are talking about. For example you said "The main reason why the US was an already growing economy is because it was coming out of a Great Recession, naturally it was going to grow" Sure. But by the time Trump was elected that recession had been long past and the US had caught up and surpassed it's 2008 GDP. For the six years before Trump GDP grew like this, by year. 2010. 2.56% 2011. 1.55% 2012. 2.25% 2013. 1.84% 2014. 2.45% 2015. 2.88% 2016. 1.57% Then Trump Years 2017. 2.27% 2018. 3.18% 2019. 2.33% Source: World Bank However when Trump came into office the National Debt stood at $19,573 Billion At the end of 2019 it stood at $22,719 billion. That's an additional $3,146 billion. Now I could understand that if Trump had inherited a catastrophe as Obama did at the end of 2008, and had to spend to dig the economy out of a hole. But he did not, he inherited a growing economy, one that had grown every year for the previous six years. Why does any of this matter? Besides the obvious economic distortion this brings (asset bubbles etc) Trump and his supporters sing his praises on economic matters, when in fact the dark cloud of spiralling national debt and inflated asset values tell a very different story. So if he is sh** at economic management, if, as even his supporters seem to concede, his domestic policies are sh**, if he is a complete charlatan when managing his private business, why on earth would anyone vote for such an idiot. The mind boggles Biden is also an idiot, who as i've pointed out has a history of racist quotes, Crime Bills that have effected and incarcerated many Black Americans, cosying up with White Supremacists and Segregationists, giving eulogy's at their funerals etc,etc. True `nuff. Biden from 2007: “You got the first mainstream African American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy. I mean, that’s a storybook, man.” So every mainstream African American prior to 2007, was inarticulate and dim and unclean and ugly? Who would vote for someone who is clearly instinctively racist? The mind boggles. Eh, Oldie? |
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Post by stuart1974 on Oct 4, 2020 8:01:32 GMT
Biden is also an idiot, who as i've pointed out has a history of racist quotes, Crime Bills that have effected and incarcerated many Black Americans, cosying up with White Supremacists and Segregationists, giving eulogy's at their funerals etc,etc. True `nuff. Biden from 2007: “You got the first mainstream African American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy. I mean, that’s a storybook, man.” So every mainstream African American prior to 2007, was inarticulate and dim and unclean and ugly? Who would vote for someone who is clearly instinctively racist? The mind boggles. Eh, Oldie? Just to give that quote some context and a link. edition.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/01/31/biden.obama/ |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2020 9:43:49 GMT
True `nuff. Biden from 2007: “You got the first mainstream African American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy. I mean, that’s a storybook, man.” So every mainstream African American prior to 2007, was inarticulate and dim and unclean and ugly? Who would vote for someone who is clearly instinctively racist? The mind boggles. Eh, Oldie? Just to give that quote some context and a link. edition.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/01/31/biden.obama/Thank you Stuart. |
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Post by Gastafari on Oct 4, 2020 10:49:07 GMT
Biden is also an idiot, who as i've pointed out has a history of racist quotes, Crime Bills that have effected and incarcerated many Black Americans, cosying up with White Supremacists and Segregationists, giving eulogy's at their funerals etc,etc. True `nuff. Biden from 2007: “You got the first mainstream African American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy. I mean, that’s a storybook, man.” So every mainstream African American prior to 2007, was inarticulate and dim and unclean and ugly? Who would vote for someone who is clearly instinctively racist? The mind boggles. Eh, Oldie? Also, when Biden was cosying up with White Supremacists and Segregationists, he was opposed to de-segregational busing, and said "Unless we do something about this, my children are going to grow up in a jungle, the jungle being a racial jungle". Even his Vice Presidential nominee Kamala Harris has brought him to task on this. Here's also a few more quotes from Biden....... In a Crime Bill speech in 1993, one that affected and incarcerated many Black people, he stated that they were "Predators" and "Beyond the Pale" Speaking at an Asian & Latino Coalition in Des Moines he said "Poor kids are just as bright as White kids" On a programme called 'Road to the White House', he said "you cannot go to a 7-Eleven or a Dunkin' Donuts unless you have an Indian accent" At an event in Danville, Virginia speaking to Black Americans, he said the Republicans "Will put Y'all back in chains". On a Breakfast show interview he said "If you don't vote for me, you ain't Black". Judging by Oldies supposed stance, on Race, Equality and Social Justice on other threads, he's happy to just chuck them in the bin, as long as it's against Donald Trump. Who would vote for an idiot? |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2020 11:07:52 GMT
Good morning Blueridge
Your post surprised me. Given that you had labelled me a leftie previously I rather presumed you were a social and fiscal conservative.
The high priest of Thatcherite economic thinking, Friedrich Hayek, will be turning in his grave at your remarks.
But its an interesting perspective you bring, because I believe it exposes a fundamental lack of understanding.
So,
I think you forget that the USA does not "own" all of the country's national debt.
For example
Foreign Owners of the Debt
Rank Country U.S. Debt Holdings
#1 China $1.11 trillion
#2 Japan $1.06 trillion
#3 Brazil $307 billion
#4 United Kingdom $301 billion
Those debts will become due at some point. But would you really want to be in hock to a country like China to the tune of over $1Trillion?
What if those four countries get into financial trouble and seek to offload those bonds on the open market? The yield would plummet and any new debt (to finance rolled over debt for eg) would have to offer those bonds at a substantially higher interest rate to attract buyers, costing the taxpayers in the States even more.
Last year the annual cost in interest payments born by the US Taxpayers was, quote: Net interest payments on the debt are estimated to total $393.5 billion this fiscal year, or 8.7% of all federal outlays. 8.7% of all government spending, money that could be spent on the social issues all to apparent over there.
In addition debt as a percentage of gdp has risen under Trump, Quote: The United States' debt-to-GDP ratio at the close of March 2020 was 82 percent. That figure is up from 79 percent at the end of 2019, and is the highest since 1948.
Since 1948. So that includes the financial crash of 2008 and the fiscal stimulus Obama had to undertake to bring their economy out of recession.
Trump had no such recession to deal with, but he has now, or his successor will.
You mention printing money. From the Fed itself in the States
Please note the first the first sentence and in particular
"high levels are not necessarily unsustainable so long as income is rising at a faster pace."
That is defined by the debt to GDP ratio remaining constant or in fact declining even as actual debt might itself rise.
A good example of managing this way was the Blair/Brown years when they raised spending on the NHS by 2% of GDP to the levels equating to those in France and Germany, after 2002.
Pre financial crisis the debt to GDP in 2007 was the same as that they inherited in 1997, at circa 48% of GDP.
Very manageable.
By contrast our current geniuses in Government slashed spending by circa 25%, but managed to double the debt to GDP ratio to now 100%.
Finally
Government debt sucks cash out of the productive economy when banks and pension funds buy government bonds (GILTS in the UK) as a "safe haven" rather than have it utilised in private sector productivity.
That is why, in my opinion, this does matter.
Sources:
1. VisualCapitalists .Com
2. Pew Research
3. Trading Economics
4. CNBC
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Post by Dirt Dogg on Oct 4, 2020 11:19:50 GMT
Stumbled upon this thread out of boredom and just thought I’d drop some truth bombs.
The USA is a One Party state, but with that party split in half.
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Post by blueridge on Oct 4, 2020 11:23:01 GMT
Good morning Blueridge Your post surprised me. Given that you had labelled me a leftie previously I rather presumed you were a social and fiscal conservative. The high priest of Thatcherite economic thinking, Friedrich Hayek, will be turning in his grave at your remarks. But its an interesting perspective you bring, because I believe it exposes a fundamental lack of understanding. So, I think you forget that the USA does not "own" all of the country's national debt. For example Foreign Owners of the Debt Rank Country U.S. Debt Holdings #1 China $1.11 trillion #2 Japan $1.06 trillion #3 Brazil $307 billion #4 United Kingdom $301 billion Those debts will become due at some point. But would you really want to be in hock to a country like China to the tune of over $1Trillion? What if those four countries get into financial trouble and seek to offload those bonds on the open market? The yield would plummet and any new debt (to finance rolled over debt for eg) would have to offer those bonds at a substantially higher interest rate to attract buyers, costing the taxpayers in the States even more. Last year the annual cost in interest payments born by the US Taxpayers was, quote: Net interest payments on the debt are estimated to total $393.5 billion this fiscal year, or 8.7% of all federal outlays. 8.7% of all government spending, money that could be spent on the social issues all to apparent over there. In addition debt as a percentage of gdp has risen under Trump, Quote: The United States' debt-to-GDP ratio at the close of March 2020 was 82 percent. That figure is up from 79 percent at the end of 2019, and is the highest since 1948. Since 1948. So that includes the financial crash of 2008 and the fiscal stimulus Obama had to undertake to bring their economy out of recession. Trump had no such recession to deal with, but he has now, or his successor will. You mention printing money. From the Fed itself in the States Please note the first the first sentence and in particular "high levels are not necessarily unsustainable so long as income is rising at a faster pace." That is defined by the debt to GDP ratio remaining constant or in fact declining even as actual debt might itself rise. A good example of managing this way was the Blair/Brown years when they raised spending on the NHS by 2% of GDP to the levels equating to those in France and Germany, after 2002. Pre financial crisis the debt to GDP in 2007 was the same as that they inherited in 1997, at circa 48% of GDP. Very manageable. By contrast our current geniuses in Government slashed spending by circa 25%, but managed to double the debt to GDP ratio to now 100%. Finally Government debt sucks cash out of the productive economy when banks and pension funds buy government bonds (GILTS in the UK) as a "safe haven" rather than have it utilised in private sector productivity. That is why, in my opinion, this does matter. Good Afternoon Oldie, i can’t recall ever calling you a “leftie” although of course I may think it - probably more a ‘champagne socialist’. Anyway, I will respond to you but I’m unable to today - enjoy your day. |
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Post by baggins on Oct 4, 2020 11:30:19 GMT
Stumbled upon this thread out of boredom and just thought I’d drop some truth bombs. The USA is a One Party state, but with that party split in half. Way to make an entrance! |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2020 11:34:44 GMT
Stumbled upon this thread out of boredom and just thought I’d drop some truth bombs. The USA is a One Party state, but with that party split in half. Way to make an entrance! Indeed Expand DD |
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Post by Gastafari on Oct 4, 2020 11:39:47 GMT
Stumbled upon this thread out of boredom and just thought I’d drop some truth bombs. The USA is a One Party state, but with that party split in half. Not far off. The Corporate party. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2020 12:07:52 GMT
Stumbled upon this thread out of boredom and just thought I’d drop some truth bombs. The USA is a One Party state, but with that party split in half. You'll probably stumble out of it too ha. Yeah a bit simplistic but not far off, UK is the same. Basically the US & UK are imperialist states just at different points of the process. Doesn't matter who is in charge, it'll stay the same. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Oct 4, 2020 17:23:03 GMT
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Post by Gastafari on Oct 4, 2020 18:35:25 GMT
Interesting that the Proud Boys leader and chairman Enrique Tallio is a Black Cuban-American, the Proud Boys also have plenty of Black & Hispanic members.
They must be the weirdest "White Supremacist" organisation known to man.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2020 19:53:52 GMT
Interesting that the Proud Boys leader and chairman Enrique Tallio is a Black Cuban-American, the Proud Boys also have plenty of Black & Hispanic members. They must be the weirdest "White Supremacist" organisation known to man. Just for clarity in the face of diversion from Gastafari. "The Proud Boys is a far-right, neo-fascist,fraternal organization affiliated with white supremacists that promotes and engages in political violence. It is based in the United States and also has a presence in Canada. The group originated in the far-right Taki's Magazine in 2016 by Vice Media co-founder and former commentator Gavin McInnes, taking its name from the song "Proud of Your Boy" from the Disney musical Aladdin. Following the 2017 Unite the Right rally, McInnes distanced himself and the group from the alt-right movement, saying his focus was "Western values" while the alt-right's focus was race." Lovely group of morons |
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Post by Gastafari on Oct 4, 2020 20:22:00 GMT
Interesting that the Proud Boys leader and chairman Enrique Tallio is a Black Cuban-American, the Proud Boys also have plenty of Black & Hispanic members. They must be the weirdest "White Supremacist" organisation known to man. Just for clarity in the face of diversion from Gastafari. "The Proud Boys is a far-right, neo-fascist,fraternal organization affiliated with white supremacists that promotes and engages in political violence. It is based in the United States and also has a presence in Canada. The group originated in the far-right Taki's Magazine in 2016 by Vice Media co-founder and former commentator Gavin McInnes, taking its name from the song "Proud of Your Boy" from the Disney musical Aladdin. Following the 2017 Unite the Right rally, McInnes distanced himself and the group from the alt-right movement, saying his focus was "Western values" while the alt-right's focus was race." Lovely group of morons I know full well what the description of them is Oldie. I was only commenting that their current leader is a Black Cuban-American and they also have other Black & Hispanic members, just seemed pretty strange that was the case if they were a "White Supremacist" organisation. Thats all. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2020 21:20:44 GMT
Just for clarity in the face of diversion from Gastafari. "The Proud Boys is a far-right, neo-fascist,fraternal organization affiliated with white supremacists that promotes and engages in political violence. It is based in the United States and also has a presence in Canada. The group originated in the far-right Taki's Magazine in 2016 by Vice Media co-founder and former commentator Gavin McInnes, taking its name from the song "Proud of Your Boy" from the Disney musical Aladdin. Following the 2017 Unite the Right rally, McInnes distanced himself and the group from the alt-right movement, saying his focus was "Western values" while the alt-right's focus was race." Lovely group of morons I know full well what the description of them is Oldie. I was only commenting that their current leader is a Black Cuban-American and they also have other Black & Hispanic members, just seemed pretty strange that was the case if they were a "White Supremacist" organisation. Thats all. Have you considered selling this information to the press? You could make a fortune. It's almost as if there could be more than two sides to a story. |
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