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Post by Gassy on Dec 10, 2020 12:07:40 GMT
Really not sure what you're getting at here. QPR players celebrated sticking it to Millwall fans which made the BBC news page, BBC sport page (many others I'm sure) and has people talking about BLM all over the country. And you're mocking them because they did something, but not doing enough? I've never understood this part of racism, homophobia, environmentalism etc. - If someone speaks up about an issue, they get slated for not doing enough and not being 'pure' enough for the cause they're discussing. But instead of attacking that persons intentions, we should be attacking the ones who do nothing about it. Society is literally backwards. It’s all pantomime and empty gestures though isn’t it? Using it as a goal celebration to wind people up when before the match there was solidarity trivialises the issue. Read Les Ferdinand’s statement. He’s spot on when he talks about football taking proper action not making empty gestures. I agree with what he says 100%. Who defines whether something is an empty gesture? If the point is to raise the issue and keep it fresh (as Tilly had alluded to, it's been getting stale) then I'd say mission accomplished! I think we can all agree that football needs to take proper action without making 'empty' gestures, but right now football isn't doing anything so this is all we have. What you're basically asking for is to stop taking the knee in the hope that football will do something else. But right now, they're not - so really you're just asking to stop highlighting it at all, which is even worse. I appreciate that of course this isn't your problem that football aren't doing enough, but instead of attacking QPR footballers for taking a stand for what they believe it - we should be attacking the FA, Fifa & UEFA for not doing enough. Our anger is directed in the wrong direction.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2020 12:19:06 GMT
It’s all pantomime and empty gestures though isn’t it? Using it as a goal celebration to wind people up when before the match there was solidarity trivialises the issue. Read Les Ferdinand’s statement. He’s spot on when he talks about football taking proper action not making empty gestures. I agree with what he says 100%. Who defines whether something is an empty gesture? If the point is to raise the issue and keep it fresh (as Tilly had alluded to, it's been getting stale) then I'd say mission accomplished! I think we can all agree that football needs to take proper action without making 'empty' gestures, but right now football isn't doing anything so this is all we have. What you're basically asking for is to stop taking the knee in the hope that football will do something else. But right now, they're not - so really you're just asking to stop highlighting it at all, which is even worse. I appreciate that of course this isn't your problem that football aren't doing enough, but instead of attacking QPR footballers for taking a stand for what they believe it - we should be attacking the FA, Fifa & UEFA for not doing enough. Our anger is directed in the wrong direction. But isn’t that what I’ve been saying all along though? The FA/Premier league or whoever started it all off had no exit strategy, unlike clap for carers that had some self awareness to know when to stop it seems the powers at be in football thought this could just go on for ever more until everyone agrees that black lives are valued as much if not more so than other races lives - but if we’re honest most would I’m sure conclude that’s not likely to happen in our lifetimes and that creates problems. As I’ve said why then reserve it just for black people? Why not open it up to every race to protest some form of oppression before the kick off? Equality and all that. So there needs to be a way to pivot to some other long running campaign that is focused strictly on tackling racism (so no excuses for political ideologies etc). It’s not like I’m not trying to be constructive I’ve already said that the FA could take action by reforming from within and if the likes of the premier league care that much how about they use some of their resources to fund clubs having an anti-racism slogan instead of their main sponsors logo for a season? Get the fans buying the replica shirts and propagate the message. But this is where we find out who really cares because it costs money. At the moment a load of blokes taking a knee because they are told to is easy because it takes little effort and it costs the premier league nothing. Real action that costs them money, well, let’s see how keen they are then...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2020 12:28:04 GMT
And they’ll go home telling all their mates about how they stuck it to Millwall fans in the name of black lives via WhatsApp on their mobile phones, meanwhile a black person is being shot in the DR Congo in a civil war over natural resources used to build mobile phones for those in the West to use to pontificate about how much black lives matter to them. Rinse and repeat. I really shouldn't reply but... What are you saying here? That capitalism is racist? So the fight against racism IS Marxist? I’m trying to point out that the problem with moralising with a slogan such as black lives matter is that the West’s lust for consumerism actually has seriously damaging effects for black lives and black economies elsewhere in the world. I wonder how many of those players taking the knee are even aware of these problems in relation to resources like cobalt and coltan when they use their PlayStations and mobile phones? Even more reason why any ongoing campaign should be from an anti-racism in football and society message.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2020 13:43:31 GMT
I really shouldn't reply but... What are you saying here? That capitalism is racist? So the fight against racism IS Marxist? I’m trying to point out that the problem with moralising with a slogan such as black lives matter is that the West’s lust for consumerism actually has seriously damaging effects for black lives and black economies elsewhere in the world. I wonder how many of those players taking the knee are even aware of these problems in relation to resources like cobalt and coltan when they use their PlayStations and mobile phones? Even more reason why any ongoing campaign should be from an anti-racism in football and society message. Yeah like one step at a time. You don't have to wait until corporate greed is abolished (never going to happen) to attempt to end racism at a personal level. You're doing planet brain.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2020 14:20:01 GMT
I’m trying to point out that the problem with moralising with a slogan such as black lives matter is that the West’s lust for consumerism actually has seriously damaging effects for black lives and black economies elsewhere in the world. I wonder how many of those players taking the knee are even aware of these problems in relation to resources like cobalt and coltan when they use their PlayStations and mobile phones? Even more reason why any ongoing campaign should be from an anti-racism in football and society message. Yeah like one step at a time. You don't have to wait until corporate greed is abolished (never going to happen) to attempt to end racism at a personal level. You're doing planet brain. Absolutely and that’s the difference between a message based on ending racism and one on black lives mattering, because a hell of a lot of black lives are collateral damage just to give us the things we take for granted on a daily basis.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2020 15:15:01 GMT
Yeah like one step at a time. You don't have to wait until corporate greed is abolished (never going to happen) to attempt to end racism at a personal level. You're doing planet brain. Absolutely and that’s the difference between a message based on ending racism and one on black lives mattering, because a hell of a lot of black lives are collateral damage just to give us the things we take for granted on a daily basis. BLM message is to end racism though? Les Ferdinands statement is that he is weary and has seen gestures come and go. Fair enough. No one has come up with a viable plan to deal with racism other than gestures have they? because liberals don't care too much. If the people deemed at the bottom of the class ladder are stepping up, are the liberals going to make way. We don't see the conservative right dealing with racism (quite the opposite), don't see the liberals dealing with it. That only leaves the left wether people like it or not.
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Post by stuartcampbell on Dec 10, 2020 15:35:18 GMT
Don't know how many times I need to ask this, but why is a movement "being Marxist." Intrinsically bad? First of all, the movement itself is not Marxist. It is true that the founders of Black Lives Matter have said that they are "trained Marxists," however, they also said they "don't want to be seen as the vanguards of this movement." Although founders in practicality, they hardly see themselves as the leaders of such a political movement. Secondly, I would argue that most rational people are Marxists, in some way shape or form. Let's put it this way: to be Marxist, you don't inherently have to be a communist or socialist. Now, it is true Marx did advocate for the transitionary phase to communism from capitalism through socialism, however, when you're talking about political ideologies; religious beliefs, points of view: you don't have to agree with every single point someone makes to be that a part of that ideology. Marx's critiques of capitalism were undeniably accurate, I don't think I've ever seen anyone contest that. Where people have an issue is where it comes to whether socialism/communism is a truly better ideological system; which they don't believe to be the case, perhaps due to past implementations of this' failures, but also because, at least to an extent; through things like the Red Scare and mass propaganda campaigns we as a society have been led to believe like a hivemind on that point. But there is a reason ideologies like Social Democracy exist, they don't advocate for mass revolution, violence, burning flags, pulling down statues and defacing property. They believe that capitalism is not beyond reform and with things like government nationalisation of certain branches of society (like healthcare, railways etc). And limiting the ability of big business to exploit ordinary people, that's still Marxism. It's just not as "Marxist" as someone who would advocate for the complete overthrowal of such a system. But let's say they do advocate for the complete overthrowal of the system. You say, completely falsely, that they encourage violence, burn flags, pull down statues and deface property. It's strange to me that a fellow football fan cannot recognise that the movement itself doesn't stand or idolise or condone almost any of these things, especially encouraging violence; burning flags is a First Amendment right. But you refer specifically to the leaders when you call them Marxists, but then don't refer to the leaders in terms of other contexts. The reason this is weird is because there are many, many football fans that are racist. Yet if I accused you of being racist for simply being a football fan, that'd be absurd. Also, the Marxist point is LITERALLY IRRELEVANT. Like completely, Martin Luther King Jr was also a profound, outspoken Marxist. He was also the leader of a political movement challenging racism in society. It's so irritating that the exact same arguments are unironically used today against such a political, social movement that were used against MLK and the Civil Rights Movement in the 1960s. So yeah, stop being a and support this please. Your arguments against it are truly woeful. H Suppose we actually have a unique mind and are truly individual. We don't want to adopt a certain ideology of a group, right, left or centre? Thankfully we can still go to the ballot box on our own and put our cross where we want to. Yes we will be called 'morons and woeful' by ideologists but we are free from their thoughts and we make our own judgements and wish to remain that way. Yes they can get aggressive if we don't agree with them, they can try and go against democracy, but it won't work because it is simply unfair and an individual who knows himself will think and act in his or her unique way, that is true freedom and I am grateful and appreciate so much we can express ourselves in that way. Being forced to adopt a certain ideology and standing against an ideology due to utter drivel are not the same thing. By your stance that you promote you should neither support kneeling nor support booing
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Post by stuartcampbell on Dec 10, 2020 15:42:56 GMT
I used to wonder how it was possible that 2 in 3 white people in the United States had a negative opinion of Martin Luther King during the Civil Rights Movement. Certain posters in this thread have certainly given me some insight.
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Post by Gastafari on Dec 10, 2020 18:53:19 GMT
I used to wonder how it was possible that 2 in 3 white people in the United States had a negative opinion of Martin Luther King during the Civil Rights Movement. Certain posters in this thread have certainly given me some insight. Likewise I always wonder whether Martin Luther King is spinning in his grave. Fast forward over 50 years from his death and it's gone full circle.
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Post by althepirate on Dec 11, 2020 9:01:21 GMT
H Suppose we actually have a unique mind and are truly individual. We don't want to adopt a certain ideology of a group, right, left or centre? Thankfully we can still go to the ballot box on our own and put our cross where we want to. Yes we will be called 'morons and woeful' by ideologists but we are free from their thoughts and we make our own judgements and wish to remain that way. Yes they can get aggressive if we don't agree with them, they can try and go against democracy, but it won't work because it is simply unfair and an individual who knows himself will think and act in his or her unique way, that is true freedom and I am grateful and appreciate so much we can express ourselves in that way. Being forced to adopt a certain ideology and standing against an ideology due to utter drivel are not the same thing. By your stance that you promote you should neither support kneeling nor support booing One man's utter drivel is another man's sound reasoning. We celebrate our uniqueness.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2020 11:21:25 GMT
Middlesborough will not be taking the knee when they play Millwall this afternoon. They stopped doing it in September, as the players felt that it had become a token gesture, and that it was time for action not empty statements.
This decision was taken following a discussion, initiated by their captain, Britt Assombalonga. He was quoted as saying: “I’ve got a little girl, and I don’t want her to be asking, ‘Daddy, why do you keep on taking a knee?’, and then when I explain to her, she asks, ‘Well, has there been any change?’, and I have to say, ‘Well, no, actually there’s not been any change’. We didn’t take the knee today, and that’s why – because we want to see change.”
The players have been going into local schools and working with children on the subject of racial equality. Personally, I'd like to see all clubs go down this route - doing something tangible, where the outcomes can be measured.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2020 11:31:59 GMT
Middlesborough will not be taking the knee when they play Millwall this afternoon. They stopped doing it in September, as the players felt that it had become a token gesture, and that it was time for action not empty statements. This decision was taken following a discussion, initiated by their captain, Britt Assombalonga. He was quoted as saying: “I’ve got a little girl, and I don’t want her to be asking, ‘Daddy, why do you keep on taking a knee?’, and then when I explain to her, she asks, ‘Well, has there been any change?’, and I have to say, ‘Well, no, actually there’s not been any change’. We didn’t take the knee today, and that’s why – because we want to see change.” The players have been going into local schools and working with children on the subject of racial equality. Personally, I'd like to see all clubs go down this route - doing something tangible, where the outcomes can be measured. Absolutely. Let's see actions taken to the point where positive outcomes can be measured and thus rendering the need to protest and highlight negligible. Sadly, we are a million miles from that.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2020 14:10:38 GMT
Middlesborough will not be taking the knee when they play Millwall this afternoon. They stopped doing it in September, as the players felt that it had become a token gesture, and that it was time for action not empty statements. This decision was taken following a discussion, initiated by their captain, Britt Assombalonga. He was quoted as saying: “I’ve got a little girl, and I don’t want her to be asking, ‘Daddy, why do you keep on taking a knee?’, and then when I explain to her, she asks, ‘Well, has there been any change?’, and I have to say, ‘Well, no, actually there’s not been any change’. We didn’t take the knee today, and that’s why – because we want to see change.” The players have been going into local schools and working with children on the subject of racial equality. Personally, I'd like to see all clubs go down this route - doing something tangible, where the outcomes can be measured. Absolutely. Let's see actions taken to the point where positive outcomes can be measured and thus rendering the need to protest and highlight negligible. Sadly, we are a million miles from that. “The best time to plant a tree was 30 years ago, the second best time is today”
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2020 14:13:02 GMT
Middlesborough will not be taking the knee when they play Millwall this afternoon. They stopped doing it in September, as the players felt that it had become a token gesture, and that it was time for action not empty statements. This decision was taken following a discussion, initiated by their captain, Britt Assombalonga. He was quoted as saying: “I’ve got a little girl, and I don’t want her to be asking, ‘Daddy, why do you keep on taking a knee?’, and then when I explain to her, she asks, ‘Well, has there been any change?’, and I have to say, ‘Well, no, actually there’s not been any change’. We didn’t take the knee today, and that’s why – because we want to see change.” The players have been going into local schools and working with children on the subject of racial equality. Personally, I'd like to see all clubs go down this route - doing something tangible, where the outcomes can be measured. Good on them, some sense breaks out during pantomime season. I’m not sure how they measure it, racial incidents in schools drecreasing? But let’s hope there is some positive outcomes in a years time when football looks back and reflects on what happened when footballers took matters into their own hands and took action.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2020 14:18:49 GMT
Middlesborough will not be taking the knee when they play Millwall this afternoon. They stopped doing it in September, as the players felt that it had become a token gesture, and that it was time for action not empty statements. This decision was taken following a discussion, initiated by their captain, Britt Assombalonga. He was quoted as saying: “I’ve got a little girl, and I don’t want her to be asking, ‘Daddy, why do you keep on taking a knee?’, and then when I explain to her, she asks, ‘Well, has there been any change?’, and I have to say, ‘Well, no, actually there’s not been any change’. We didn’t take the knee today, and that’s why – because we want to see change.” The players have been going into local schools and working with children on the subject of racial equality. Personally, I'd like to see all clubs go down this route - doing something tangible, where the outcomes can be measured. Good on them, some sense breaks out during pantomime season. I’m not sure how they measure it, racial incidents in schools drecreasing? But let’s hope there is some positive outcomes in a years time when football looks back and reflects on what happened when footballers took matters into their own hands and took action. Teaching kids has outcomes decades later. Even then they may well become influenced by events in their lives and seek to blame others. But it's a must, but just one element. Maintaining pressure on established practices has to be continued, regardless of the rather petty arguments put forward as to why we shouldn't.
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Post by Gastafari on Dec 12, 2020 15:11:58 GMT
Anthony Joshua will not be taking the knee before his fight with Pulev tonight either.
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yattongas
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Post by yattongas on Dec 12, 2020 17:41:16 GMT
Watching Man Utd v Man City on sky . Both sides took the knee ..... i counted about 10 secs . Really can’t see the issue here and why anyone would get upset by it ( apart from the obvious idiots)
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2020 17:54:41 GMT
Anthony Joshua will not be taking the knee before his fight with Pulev tonight either. Daniel Dubois did last week!
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Post by Gassy on Dec 19, 2020 9:11:24 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2020 18:33:45 GMT
Interestingly there were only 400 respondents to the survey. If you do some fag packet maths by taking the average squad size as 25, that’s effectively 16 clubs out of the 92 that replied. Surely you’d expect responses in the 1000s for it to be more representative of the 4 professional leagues?
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