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Post by woolavingtonpirate on Jan 25, 2021 11:25:33 GMT
First Post, so go easy! Having watched almost every game this season, this is where our main problem lies. Every good team that we have played have a midfield that is aggressive, strong and closes down quickly. Nothing exceptional, bar the odd really talented player. Basically the opposite to our passive weak players.No doubt westbrooke and grant have talent but they are both too weak, cannot tackle, do not close down the opposition and not particularly good in the air. Many of the goals we have conceded have come about because of the midfield not closing down or losing their runners, just look at the first 2 goals crewe scored, Westbrooke could of done much better. I do think we have good players in defence but they do look low in belief at the moment. Day looks OK in goal but is stuck on his line far to often for me. Get that midfield competitive and our defence will show its quality. UTG
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Post by goodnightirene1883 on Jan 25, 2021 11:27:46 GMT
First Post, so go easy! Having watched almost every game this season, this is where our main problem lies. Every good team that we have played have a midfield that is aggressive, strong and closes down quickly. Nothing exceptional, bar the odd really talented player. Basically the opposite to our passive weak players.No doubt westbrooke and grant have talent but they are both too weak, cannot tackle, do not close down the opposition and not particularly good in the air. Many of the goals we have conceded have come about because of the midfield not closing down or losing their runners, just look at the first 2 goals crewe scored, Westbrooke could of done much better. I do think we have good players in defence but they do look low in belief at the moment. Day looks OK in goal but is stuck on his line far to often for me. Get that midfield competitive and our defence will show its quality. UTG Welcome mate I hear your point  What would you do to address this with our current squad out of interest? Cheers GI1883 |
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Post by GasAttacK on Jan 25, 2021 12:00:10 GMT
First Post, so go easy! Having watched almost every game this season, this is where our main problem lies. Every good team that we have played have a midfield that is aggressive, strong and closes down quickly. Nothing exceptional, bar the odd really talented player. Basically the opposite to our passive weak players.No doubt westbrooke and grant have talent but they are both too weak, cannot tackle, do not close down the opposition and not particularly good in the air. Many of the goals we have conceded have come about because of the midfield not closing down or losing their runners, just look at the first 2 goals crewe scored, Westbrooke could of done much better. I do think we have good players in defence but they do look low in belief at the moment. Day looks OK in goal but is stuck on his line far to often for me. Get that midfield competitive and our defence will show its quality. UTG Don't disagree.
Westbrooke's contribution has been minimal. Apart from a rare moment of quality the game just passes him by. He's a luxury we can't afford. He should be loaned out to free up wages because I'm sure he's one of the highest earners.
Barrett and Liddle should also be loaned out or released and I think Rodman's age has caught up with him so he's another I wouldn't be sorry to see move on.
I'd keep Grant because of his versatility but wouldn't have him in my starting 11.
That would leave us with Grant, Ogogo, Upson, Hargreaves, McCormick, Oztumer and if you count him as a midfielder, Nicholson.
One quality midfielder to replace the 4 loaned out would probably do and free up some space in the squad to strengthen other positions.
Obviously players like Hare, Little, Tutonda and possibly Baldiwn or Harris could also be loaned out.
However, it is of course only worth getting players out if we can replace them with better.
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Post by woolavingtonpirate on Jan 25, 2021 12:01:50 GMT
It's a tough one as I'm not sure we have the right players in the squad? Nicholson coming back in does make a difference as he gives the opposition a problem. Long term upson and ogogo are not the answer but maybe short term, two players who can hassle and close down allowing a 3rd player to play with freedom? Attacking wise we have enough when otszumer and Nicholson are fit. We are short of someone who can hold the ball up in attack, daly hassles supurbly from the front when fit, we miss that.
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Post by singupgas on Jan 25, 2021 12:07:51 GMT
Westbrooke and Grant are different types of midfielders. One is supposed to be players that breaks downs opposition play and win us the ball, the other is forward thinking. Grant along with Upson for me are passengers and do not fulfill their role in the side we have team pass throughus with no pproblem . We are not streetwise enough,do not put the foot in to break up the play and do not do enough to bully the opposition. We need a midfield general.
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Post by woolavingtonpirate on Jan 25, 2021 12:16:02 GMT
Totally agree on grant, doesn't get involved enough for me. Westbrooke needs to be encouraged to close down hassle and challenge more, no room for passengers at the moment. I don't mind upson, he's not the long term answer but he's got the most rounded game out of our midfield. We need midfielders who can do both the dirty work as well as the good bits.
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Post by o2o2bo2ba on Jan 25, 2021 15:12:57 GMT
Agree with o p.
Hilarious that media report we "swoop" for Westbrook when he was part of promotion team...."steal" Grant from right under Plymouth noses and the fans are angry, etc ...."premiership outfit" Kioki (he's played in midfield) .
Our incomings are described as such amazing acquisitions, but rarely live up to the image.
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Post by lpgas1 on Jan 25, 2021 15:20:14 GMT
Agree with o p. Hilarious that media report we "swoop" for Westbrook when he was part of promotion team...."steal" Grant from right under Plymouth noses and the fans are angry, etc ...."premiership outfit" Kioki (he's played in midfield) . Our incomings are described as such amazing acquisitions, but rarely live up to the image. I would try Kioki up front, ant be any worse than what we have |
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Post by goodnightirene1883 on Jan 25, 2021 15:20:42 GMT
Agree with o p. Hilarious that media report we "swoop" for Westbrook when he was part of promotion team...."steal" Grant from right under Plymouth noses and the fans are angry, etc ...."premiership outfit" Kioki (he's played in midfield) . Our incomings are described as such amazing acquisitions, but rarely live up to the image. Westbrooke played very deep by BG as the DM then a few different by Tisdale so far (probably best role box to box) Grant played as a box to box by Tisdale (probably best as DM) Koiki played as attacking mid by Tisdale (probably best as LB) *all my own opinion of course I would love to think that given a spell in their strongest positions we might see some of the pre season hype but like you said, not that many things to shout about so far. |
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Post by o2o2bo2ba on Jan 25, 2021 15:21:45 GMT
Agree with o p. Hilarious that media report we "swoop" for Westbrook when he was part of promotion team...."steal" Grant from right under Plymouth noses and the fans are angry, etc ...."premiership outfit" Kioki (he's played in midfield) . Our incomings are described as such amazing acquisitions, but rarely live up to the image. I would try Kioki up front, ant be any worse than what we have Haha! Totally agree. But then again, McGhee had similar deviances... |
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Post by Topper Gas on Jan 25, 2021 15:30:28 GMT
The problem for our midfield is what incentive do they have to bring the ball forward, when Hanlan, our only striker, is usually marked by at least 2 opposition defenders, the whole team plays better when we have Nicko and Ozt in the side. We desperately need one of those fit tomorrow night or, at the latest Saturday.
As far as Liddle as anyone seen him play before saying he should be released?
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Post by goodnightirene1883 on Jan 25, 2021 15:36:39 GMT
The problem for our midfield is what incentive do they have to bring the ball forward, when Hanlan, our only striker, is usually marked by at least 2 opposition defenders, the whole team plays better when we have Nicko and Ozt in the side. We desperately need one of those fit tomorrow night or, at the latest Saturday. As far as Liddle as anyone seen him play before saying he should be released? 109 mins is all he has played in all competitions so to say release him is absurd... to me. |
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Post by axegas on Jan 25, 2021 16:15:22 GMT
Good, interesting thread but I’m not sure I agree that the midfield is our main problem.
I think it’s very mediocre, the likes of Grant and Upson can pass the ball well and make the odd decent tackle but they fail to stamp their authority on the game. Westbrooke is a skilful and technical player with the ball at his feet but you don’t see enough from him when he doesn’t have the ball.
McCormick in fairness jumps into tackles and works really hard, he’s probably been our best midfielder in the last 3-4 games but I don’t think he’s the finished article yet. I was hoping Ogogo would bring that drive and tenacity that Upson lacked on Saturday, though he had a fairly quiet day.
Oztumer and Nicholson are where the real quality lies, they get the ball moving up the pitch and bring out the best in others with their slick passing play. No surprise that we’ve suffered a great deal in their absence. Probably not the aggressive, strong type of players the OP mentions though.
So yeah I think our midfield has its strengths and weaknesses and overall is probably lower mid table at best. I think our real main problem is our defence, we leave strikers unmarked or marked by the wrong players, we can’t deal with free kicks or corners where a cross poses an aerial threat that our defenders need to deal with, we don’t close players down well enough.
We must sort this out as we’ve only kept one clean sheet in our last 11 games and we’re not a team that puts the opposition to the sword at the other end of the pitch to begin with.
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Post by xenongas on Jan 25, 2021 16:32:56 GMT
I definitely agree that midfield is our major issue. In the last few games the only danger we've created is by pumping it up to Hanlan which says to me that there is a recognition of the limitations in the middle. I think all of them in there need others around them to be playing well, by that I mean there is a lack of initiative to drive the team individually - they are waiting for someone else to do it.
Westbrooke epitomises this. I have no doubt that he is a very good footballer and that he played a part in Coventry's success last term. But he is what I'd describe as a luxury player - and again that is with the utmost respect for him. You can see in glimpses when players like Oztumer and Nicholson are around him, he comes alive with some nice passing and movement. But surround him with the players that lined up against Oxford and he becomes a passenger because he relies on the movement of others and isn't the sort of player to create something on his own. I think he would improve most of the top 10 teams in the league but is unlikely to be successful as part of a team in the bottom half of the league.
Upson and Grant have been this season's least impressive players for me. They are much the same in their passive wanderings and I really cannot see what they bring apart from one or two good passes per game. Grant started to look more like his pre-signing description but that only lasted 2 games. It doesn't seem like they know what they are supposed to be doing. Are they there to screen the defenders? Well they get cruised past to easily to be doing that properly. Are they there to keep recycling the ball? Well in theory that is what the centre backs have been brought in to do so it seems unnecessary to have these two doing the same. Are they there to start attacks? They do not play forward enough to link any play.
I like McCormick because he gets around and does get into some good positions. But once in those positions, he does look a bit lost.
So what is the answer? Assuming there are no new arrivals which may change the dynamic and sticking with a back 4, I just want to see players doing what they are good at. This is why I am glad Ogogo is back. Right now, his job should simply be to break up play in the middle and play a simple pass. Alongside him there should be a player that links the defenders and attackers, a budget Jordan Henderson if you like. Their simple job is to always offer an out pass to Ogogo and the defenders to keep the ball moving then when there is an opportunity, pass forward! I think with the straightforward confines of this role, Grant or Upson should be able to step up. Moving up the pitch, we need players to unlock space behind Hanlan. I'd like to see Oztumer in the middle as he buzzes around and I think has the ability to turn defenders around if runs are being made ahead of him. So the next job to fill is those runners. For me, Nicholson is a shoe in and should just be told to get the ball and run with it! On the other side, I'd go with McCormick (maybe Daly when fit) because his energy is great to keep the tempo of the game up and you feel like theres always a quick break on with a turnover. These lads should be getting in and around Hanlan as much as possible, getting him out of isolation is so important I think.
That is how the jigsaw fits together as I see it. I can see a clear path up the field which is something I can't do at the moment. However, as we see now with the absence of Nicholson and Oztumer there doesn't seem to be anyone else Tisdale trusts to fill the gap between defence and striker(s). The other downside is giving up acres of space on the wings but that seems to be something Tisdale accepted even during the winning run all that time (1 month only!) ago as you can't cover everywhere.
Right, I've got a bit carried away there. The point is we need to connect the team up better and that is the midfield's job!
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Post by RD on Jan 25, 2021 16:43:41 GMT
Everyone talks about Westbrooke as if he's some sort of magician but a bit lightweight. I don't get it. He's very, very average. A couple of Holywood balls you could add to a YouTube promo video, but then majority go astray. Equally, there are several set pieces of quality but most are dire.
He's a complete luxury of a player IMO. Maybe one day he'll develop in to a star, but right now he's a bit of a liability frankly. Give me a steady 7 out of 10, no frills consistent player every day of the week. Westbrooke is one of those who will get one or two 10 out 10 performances, five or six 9s and the rest about 4 or 5 out of 10. If I had to sum him up, he's Astafjevs 10% of the time, Rob Quinn 40% of the time and somewhere in-between the remaining 50% of the time.
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Post by alanrg on Jan 25, 2021 16:47:40 GMT
Talking about Westbrooke a year ago Championship clubs were interested in him including the dark side I wonder what has gone wrong with him
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Post by RD on Jan 25, 2021 16:51:00 GMT
Talking about Westbrooke a year ago Championship clubs were interested in him including the dark side I wonder what has gone wrong with him You have to assume they did their homework properly and in-depth and arrived at the conclusion he flattered to deceive. In fairness, he is absolutely no way near Championship standard (at present). |
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Post by toddy1953 on Jan 25, 2021 17:26:01 GMT
Excellent question raised by the OP.
I think it re-emphasised the scattergun approach to recruitment in the summer, hence some people, including myself, questioning TW role & why we have recruited so woefully.
My view, a few months ago was that as a team we had a week underbelly & in midfield, apart from McCormick, we have been woeful. Most infuriating is Westbrooke, seems to have ability but seems to constantly jogs around the pitch, box to box, rarely putting in a decent challenge & delivers next to nothing with the ball. Grant as a defensive midfielder is L2 at best, Upson not worth his place based on one decent game here & there, need to give Ogogo a run, but still not convinced. Barratt needs more games & I would give Liddel & Hargreaves a few games too.
Hanlan, needs someone to help him upfront but also needs help from midfield, as when he gets the ball, he is surrounded but there is never any outlet, he tries to beat several players, it sometimes comes off but more often he ends up going down a blind alley. Yes we need another experienced striker, but we also need a more supportive midfield- as for our defence, we need a leader & or a quality defensive coach.
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Post by ChiefStateGAS on Jan 25, 2021 23:54:00 GMT
Everyone talks about Westbrooke as if he's some sort of magician but a bit lightweight. I don't get it. He's very, very average. A couple of Holywood balls you could add to a YouTube promo video, but then majority go astray. Equally, there are several set pieces of quality but most are dire. He's a complete luxury of a player IMO. Maybe one day he'll develop in to a star, but right now he's a bit of a liability frankly. Give me a steady 7 out of 10, no frills consistent player every day of the week. Westbrooke is one of those who will get one or two 10 out 10 performances, five or six 9s and the rest about 4 or 5 out of 10. If I had to sum him up, he's Astafjevs 10% of the time, Rob Quinn 40% of the time and somewhere in-between the remaining 50% of the time.I could not agree more, absolutely nailed it  |
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Post by Congas on Jan 26, 2021 7:23:11 GMT
Hanlan has at least three players marking him. He usually skips past the first with a neat turn, occasionally wriggles past the second but hardly ever beats the third, and even when he does he can't do much because they've ushered him out wide. We need Nicholson and Oz back to give defences somebody else to worry about and give us a bit of momentum again. There's nothing wrong with our midfield with them two there and a fit Daly. Players that Garner brought it, painful as that is to admit for some fans.
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What would you do to address this with our current squad out of interest?
