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Post by Topper Gas on Feb 13, 2021 18:58:45 GMT
There's alot to think about in all of this as Garner was bought in here to transform the squad and help make the club to become more sustainable. This project was what Wael wanted so I disagree with the people who say he dispanded a team that was 4th. Alot of this was down to players on contracts that were running out and were on high wages allegedly and remember we tried to keep Ollie Clarke but decided to leave and JCH wanted to move on as well. This was a project that was always going to take time as we started the season with basically a totally new squad which would take a couple of seasons to gel history of other teams overhauling there squad will tell you that. The reaction of most on here and other forms of social media was of excitement of these signings but with any signing there is no guarantees they would all be a success. We had a tough set of fixtures to start of with especially when the team would need a few competitive games to settle and to be honest they were not as bad as some make out and when the fixtures became a little easier our points returns started to improve. There was always going to be bumps in the road and the Fleetwood performance which ended in Garner getting the sack was poor but for me not worthy of sacking a manager unlike the Accrington performance which was a total disgrace. The players bought in wanted to join and were impressed with Garners style and views of how to play the game and I believe with time and a couple of additions in January would have seen us have a comfortable season without the relegation battle we find ourselves in. They also never downed tools and didn't want to play for him there was commitment every game. I know I will get slated for this but it's my opinion and I don't lay this all on BG he was bought here to overhaul the club and wasn't given the necessary time that would take to do this it could never have been an overnight project. Fantastic and very well put. If we were 10th or 12th when Garner took over I firmly believe he would still be here and our squad would be flourishing, yes with the odd bump in the road like Fleetwood, but the squad were with him and we were improving. I personally think that sacking has set us back 5 years as a club. How could results, or more importantly performances, be improving, we got taken apart by Walsall in the second half of the FA cup game then by Fleetwood in the following match, which was the 4th league game out of 5 we'd lost, drawing the other one, it's obvious you have some connection with BG but don't try and rewrite history to support him. BG was rightfully dismissed but somehow Tisdale was just as bad.
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Post by Topper Gas on Feb 13, 2021 19:02:09 GMT
Thanks G and E, good work to get those stats together. In the end we had two managers whose PPG is poor, win % is poor and some performances have been awful. And our position in the table is causing concern. BG was done by a very poor performance against Fleetwood after some decent, if losing performances against some good teams. We had dropped down the league but the players seemed to be buying into what was happening. Tis got an initial bounce and before we were hit by Covid some good performances and results. What followed were some strange formations which may have been caused by some stuff we don’t know about. But since Christmas we’ve had some poor performances and questions asked about players being committed and concerns that the players weren’t playing for him. We are looking at a relegation fight and I’m not sure the players look up for it. I feel for Tis but in a results business neither manager made a case for sticking with them. So in the end we’re arguing about who was least crap. It’s a pretty low bar. UTG! Which manager do you believe was likely to improve results if we stuck with them? Neither one was out of his depths and the other's managed to totally lose the changing room post COVID. I guess we'll all know if it's the players or the managers who've been next to useless over the next few games, the way Swindon are seemingly reluctant to play us this weekend suggests they don't think it's the players, or otherwise they'd play and take the easy 3 pts.
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Post by carlts2020 on Feb 13, 2021 19:02:47 GMT
Fantastic and very well put. If we were 10th or 12th when Garner took over I firmly believe he would still be here and our squad would be flourishing, yes with the odd bump in the road like Fleetwood, but the squad were with him and we were improving. I personally think that sacking has set us back 5 years as a club. How could results, or more importantly performances, be improving, we got taken apart by Walsall in the second half of the FA cup game then by Fleetwood in the following match, which was the 4th league game out of 5 we'd lost, drawing the other one, it's obvious you have some connection with BG but don't try and rewrite history to support him. BG was rightfully dismissed but somehow Tisdale was just as bad. It’s not just me topshop there are plenty of people on here saying the same thing although I know you have a penchant for singling people out. We were excellent against Peterborough and got done by two long shots as we were against Hull. Walsall was a cup game against a L2 team. When we knew they were beaten or as good as young / new players were blooded as any good manager would do.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2021 19:04:36 GMT
Cant be arsed to read this thread, could someone please summarise?
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Post by carlts2020 on Feb 13, 2021 19:05:00 GMT
Cant be arsed to read this thread, could someone please summarise? Watford
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Post by warehamgas on Feb 13, 2021 19:09:24 GMT
Thanks G and E, good work to get those stats together. In the end we had two managers whose PPG is poor, win % is poor and some performances have been awful. And our position in the table is causing concern. BG was done by a very poor performance against Fleetwood after some decent, if losing performances against some good teams. We had dropped down the league but the players seemed to be buying into what was happening. Tis got an initial bounce and before we were hit by Covid some good performances and results. What followed were some strange formations which may have been caused by some stuff we don’t know about. But since Christmas we’ve had some poor performances and questions asked about players being committed and concerns that the players weren’t playing for him. We are looking at a relegation fight and I’m not sure the players look up for it. I feel for Tis but in a results business neither manager made a case for sticking with them. So in the end we’re arguing about who was least crap. It’s a pretty low bar. UTG! Which manager do you believe was likely to improve results if we stuck with them? Difficult to answer, both showed an inability to get enough wins and points to stop us getting relegated. (Based on the stats) I’d have stuck with Garner for longer but I’ve more patience than others or I’m too slow at facing up to reality. (You decide! 😉) I certainly wouldn’t have sacked Tis at this point. But that Accrington performance did for him. It was a shocker with our best team. And I understand why the decisions were taken, I expect the board to do everything to avoid relegation and they probably don’t have my patience. To answer your question I’d probably say Tis, he would improve us given time but I’m not sure he would with these players. They certainly weren’t playing for him imo. We might have had to get worse before we got better. UTG!
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Post by warehamgas on Feb 13, 2021 19:12:26 GMT
Cant be arsed to read this thread, could someone please summarise? We are arguing about two crap managers, who was the worst .... in a nutshell. 😉
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2021 19:13:15 GMT
Cant be arsed to read this thread, could someone please summarise? We are arguing about two crap managers, who was the worst .... in a nutshell. 😉 Verdict?
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Post by warehamgas on Feb 13, 2021 19:16:13 GMT
In the end, who cares? It’s all about the great Tommy Wid from now on. 😉 UTG!
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Post by Icegas on Feb 13, 2021 19:24:11 GMT
Well thought out response.👍 Sometimes you only need a few words. I can confirm after further review this is utter and total emotional waffle. I agree..Waffles can get one emotional.
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Post by landrover on Feb 13, 2021 19:27:08 GMT
It’s like asking to choose who you preferred, Hitler or Mussolini.
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Post by carlts2020 on Feb 13, 2021 19:51:54 GMT
Which manager do you believe was likely to improve results if we stuck with them? Neither one was out of his depths and the other's managed to totally lose the changing room post COVID. I guess we'll all know if it's the players or the managers who've been next to useless over the next few games, the way Swindon are seemingly reluctant to play us this weekend suggests they don't think it's the players, or otherwise they'd play and take the easy 3 pts. Hahaha you are suggesting the game being called off means Swindon think our players are good which means both PT and BG are bad managers. Lay off the pipe Top Cat
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Post by carlts2020 on Feb 13, 2021 19:52:13 GMT
It’s like asking to choose who you preferred, Hitler or Mussolini. Mussolini
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Post by Gassy on Feb 13, 2021 20:45:41 GMT
Sorry meant to say 12 points from 11 games, you out 15 league games this season so the PPG is actually higher I think? Definitely 12 points from 11 in the league, that’s what my stats show, and the league table as at 15th Nov from 11v11, plus what you’ve identified yourself. That gives a PPG of 1.09. I did miss the EFL cup match fixture by the looks of it but it would only affect the season to date all competitions ever so slightly, bringing the win ratio down ever so slightly. But those stats aren’t even very interesting anyway. Think we’re just debating a rounding difference though right? Sorry mucker, I've misunderstood your table completely! I didn't see the season to date tab, and was looking at 19/20 thinking it was 20/21 - hence the 15 game comment. My bad!
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Post by Topper Gas on Feb 13, 2021 20:57:45 GMT
Neither one was out of his depths and the other's managed to totally lose the changing room post COVID. I guess we'll all know if it's the players or the managers who've been next to useless over the next few games, the way Swindon are seemingly reluctant to play us this weekend suggests they don't think it's the players, or otherwise they'd play and take the easy 3 pts. Hahaha you are suggesting the game being called off means Swindon think our players are good which means both PT and BG are bad managers. Lay off the pipe Top Cat So Benjamin you think Swindon don't want to play tomorrow as they will run out winners, no wonder you were so poor as a manager using that kind of logic.
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Post by carlts2020 on Feb 14, 2021 0:28:40 GMT
Hahaha you are suggesting the game being called off means Swindon think our players are good which means both PT and BG are bad managers. Lay off the pipe Top Cat So Benjamin you think Swindon don't want to play tomorrow as they will run out winners, no wonder you were so poor as a manager using that kind of logic. The ref called it off Toptart...just accept not everything is a conspiracy
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Post by CrispPusher on Feb 14, 2021 2:11:09 GMT
Probably worth mentioning 3 of Ben Garner's 5 wins came against 10 men. Blackpool, Northampton and Lincoln.
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Post by o2o2bo2ba on Feb 14, 2021 7:58:56 GMT
Probably worth mentioning 3 of Ben Garner's 5 wins came against 10 men. Blackpool, Northampton and Lincoln. I asked the very same and was accused of bringing up an obscure stat! It's a very good point. And relevant.
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Post by o2o2bo2ba on Feb 14, 2021 8:16:57 GMT
Ref o p...
I like how this thread is trying to put to bed some of the salient stat points that have hijacked some of the other threads.
For me:
BG took over a 5 year hard work promotion potential club, and devastatingly turned it into a relegation threatened woeful squad within three quarters of a season. He was rightly removed, too late imo.
I drew my line after Southend away (a modern Braintree) and if had been removed during the first lockdown, we would have had more options of new manager Clough/Cotterill/Rowett/Mick McCarthy (!). It also didn't help that BG post match comments were at times frankly bizarre and alot of the fan base didn't warm to that, even though at most matches (especially away) he was roundly welcomed into the pitch by the paying fan.
BG appointment and subsequent awful failure has put us back years.
Tis appointment I tepidly supported, wasn't my choice, but at the time I saw as potential improvement. His January transfer window was one of the worse in club's recent memory. He was rightly removed due to horrendous run in form, albeit with not his squad but he done nothing to change it. It's a shame, but there was no improvement.
It leaves me with no confidence that anyone can turn this mostly under performing squad around from destined relegation, whomever comes in, whatever stats you quote. But I've agreed with the board decision to remove managers this season, so the club has my support.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2021 8:26:35 GMT
Probably worth mentioning 3 of Ben Garner's 5 wins came against 10 men. Blackpool, Northampton and Lincoln. A wins a win,playing against 10 men can some time’s be just as difficult as playing against 11.
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