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Post by LJG on Jun 9, 2021 18:15:29 GMT
Less debt. In league 2 (we were in league 2, so no change there then) Training ground (we didn’t have one then) The Mem is still the Mem, but we have two extra tents, refreshed tarmac behind the Thatchers, and we have two new stands, even if they’re tents. We’ve not become Man City over night but things aren’t any worse than in February 2016. Not much better, granted, but there has been progress. If you want to compare the last 5 years however, to the five years that preceded them. Well, it’s night and day isn’t it. More debt than what Wael took over with. And an enormous amount of equity to boot. We were all but in league one as I said, Wael takes no credit for that promotion. The mem is still the mem, exactly the problem. Don’t see any progress, regression mainly. Is it night and day, previous 5 years under Higgs, one relegation, bit of debt accrued chasing credible stadium plans, two promotions. Last 5 years under Wael, 1 relegation, lots of debt racked up, underdeveloped training ground. You mention in one post "equity and equity that no prospective owner will want to take on" and here "an enormous amount of equity". To help allay your fears - equity is not debt so it makes absolutely no odds to any prospective owner how much there is. None whatsoever. I can have 100,000,000 £1 shares in a company and those shares might be worth only a penny. A prospective owner will only pay one penny in that case. I can have 100 £1 shares in a company and those shares might be worth £100,000,000. A prospective owner would have to pay the hundred million. In both cases the nominal value of the shares - what you're calling the equity - is irrelevant to the purchase price. Bristol Rovers Football Club Ltd have 17,887,339 10p shares. That means nothing when it comes to the valuation a prospective purchaser will pay. Hopefully that makes you feel a bit better.
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Post by harrystokegas on Jun 9, 2021 18:15:50 GMT
I’ve explained this before. The post about planning, I thought people would genuinely interested in as it was about people’s objections concerning the new training ground. The bump posts as I PM’ed you, I got a little confused. This? Well this is just my opinion and others have actually had the courtesy and grace to acknowledge it. Your rap sheet will make Joey blush at this rate Go on then, ban me? If that’s how you feel about Gasheads trying to get their opinions across in a sensible way which might contravene with the unwritten rules of this tiny forum. You’re the moderator. Balls in your court. Me? I’d like to stay and converse with other Gasheads about the football club we share and love.
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Post by harrystokegas on Jun 9, 2021 18:21:52 GMT
More debt than what Wael took over with. And an enormous amount of equity to boot. We were all but in league one as I said, Wael takes no credit for that promotion. The mem is still the mem, exactly the problem. Don’t see any progress, regression mainly. Is it night and day, previous 5 years under Higgs, one relegation, bit of debt accrued chasing credible stadium plans, two promotions. Last 5 years under Wael, 1 relegation, lots of debt racked up, underdeveloped training ground. You mention in one post "equity and equity that no prospective owner will want to take on" and here "an enormous amount of equity". To help allay your fears - equity is not debt so it makes absolutely no odds to any prospective owner how much there is. None whatsoever. I can have 100,000,000 £1 shares in a company and those shares might be worth only a penny. A prospective owner will only pay one penny in that case. I can have 100 £1 shares in a company and those shares might be worth £100,000,000. A prospective owner would have to pay the hundred million. In both cases the nominal value of the shares - what you're calling the equity - is irrelevant to the purchase price. Bristol Rovers Football Club Ltd have 17,887,339 10p shares. That means nothing when it comes to the valuation a prospective purchaser will pay. You and I both well know, that Wael’s intentions are unknown. Nowhere have I seen a change in share price, indeed it stayed the same in the deal to buy more shares from the share scheme. The money that Wael has converted to equity, he’s going to want back. Hence the reason why he didn’t resort to a cash injection and converted to equity instead. It’s in his interest to accumulate shares but not change the share price.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2021 18:23:17 GMT
Your rap sheet will make Joey blush at this rate Go on then, ban me? If that’s how you feel about Gasheads trying to get their opinions across in a sensible way which might contravene with the unwritten rules of this tiny forum. You’re the moderator. Balls in your court. Me? I’d like to stay and converse with other Gasheads about the football club we share and love. You didnt answer my question.
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Post by harrystokegas on Jun 9, 2021 18:24:32 GMT
Go on then, ban me? If that’s how you feel about Gasheads trying to get their opinions across in a sensible way which might contravene with the unwritten rules of this tiny forum. You’re the moderator. Balls in your court. Me? I’d like to stay and converse with other Gasheads about the football club we share and love. You didnt answer my question. Go on, what was your question? A lot of people quoting me today and it’s hard to keep track of what was said and by whom.
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Post by Icegas on Jun 9, 2021 18:30:38 GMT
In answer to your question, is he taking us in the wrong direction, the answer is no. He has ploughed a substantial amount of his own money into his dream and is still here. The bigger question is will he learn from his mistakes? At the moment we seem to be swinging wildly from one idea/dna/project - call it what you like - to another without much concrete idea of where it will lead or what it takes for that idea to come to fruition. In my mind he has been too easily influenced and now needs to make decisions and stick with them. He certainly seems to be right behind the Barton camp and needs to hold his nerve. For once he will need to overcome the stupidity of calling for heads after 10 games and look at the longer picture. That is if Barton sticks with us long term. At the end of the day football is a dirty old business. Look at Everton. If he can keep this club afloat and one day build a stadium his legacy will be a fantastic one. Come on Wael. You can do it! We don’t ask for much!! UTG Good point about learning from his mistakes. The period we are having right now under Wael reminds me of the sh** under pantsdown about 10 years ago. He could get a new stadium built, and had to redevelop Ashton. He spent millions (granted more than Wael on signins like David James chasing a Premiership dream when BCFC didn't have the infrastructure in place Eg: Ground, training ground or right people at the club to get to that next level and dropped down to L1 for a season.Now look at them they sadly are now ready for the premier ship. Wael has invested alot of money into our club but needs to get the right people around him to move us forward just like Pantsdown did.
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Post by wider on Jun 9, 2021 18:30:56 GMT
You mention in one post "equity and equity that no prospective owner will want to take on" and here "an enormous amount of equity". To help allay your fears - equity is not debt so it makes absolutely no odds to any prospective owner how much there is. None whatsoever. I can have 100,000,000 £1 shares in a company and those shares might be worth only a penny. A prospective owner will only pay one penny in that case. I can have 100 £1 shares in a company and those shares might be worth £100,000,000. A prospective owner would have to pay the hundred million. In both cases the nominal value of the shares - what you're calling the equity - is irrelevant to the purchase price. Bristol Rovers Football Club Ltd have 17,887,339 10p shares. That means nothing when it comes to the valuation a prospective purchaser will pay. You and I both well know, that Wael’s intentions are unknown. Nowhere have I seen a change in share price, indeed it stayed the same in the deal to buy more shares from the share scheme. The money that Wael has converted to equity, he’s going to want back. Hence the reason why he didn’t resort to a cash injection and converted to equity instead. It’s in his interest to accumulate shares but not change the share price. One thing I agree with - it is in his interest to accumulate shares - it dilutes the BRSC holding and their right to 2 Board Directors. I sincerely hope the new ex- military Non Executive Director can heal that rift.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2021 18:33:54 GMT
Look at the family stand for example, some people are so ungrateful! No, that's definitely a.mark in the against column I wish they would take it down, naked terraces looked better imo
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2021 18:36:08 GMT
Welcome harrys, don’t apologise for being a newbie, and you’re entitled to your view just like everyone else. Wael took over in Feb ‘16 and we were mid table and certainly not “all but a League 1 club” and whilst I’d never say it was his promotion because it was Darrell's and the team, I’m pretty sure it wasn’t Nick Higgs’ promotion. Lots of good things happening incl the Training Ground and lots of bad things happening, relegation, 3 managers in a season. Sure things could be better but they’ve also been worse. It is what it’s always been, supporting a lower league club with all its ups and downs, much like it been for many years. Don’t be put off by others disagreeing but we’ve just been relegated, we’ve had 3 managers and everyone’s frustrated with all the negativity. Give Joey a chance to get his players, win a few games, develop a style and we'll be fine. 😉 Fingers crossed. UTG! yeah wael didn't help but our excitement at what we thought was a rich owner did, we rode that wave like mad.
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Post by Topper Gas on Jun 9, 2021 18:37:37 GMT
You mention in one post "equity and equity that no prospective owner will want to take on" and here "an enormous amount of equity". To help allay your fears - equity is not debt so it makes absolutely no odds to any prospective owner how much there is. None whatsoever. I can have 100,000,000 £1 shares in a company and those shares might be worth only a penny. A prospective owner will only pay one penny in that case. I can have 100 £1 shares in a company and those shares might be worth £100,000,000. A prospective owner would have to pay the hundred million. In both cases the nominal value of the shares - what you're calling the equity - is irrelevant to the purchase price. Bristol Rovers Football Club Ltd have 17,887,339 10p shares. That means nothing when it comes to the valuation a prospective purchaser will pay. You and I both well know, that Wael’s intentions are unknown. Nowhere have I seen a change in share price, indeed it stayed the same in the deal to buy more shares from the share scheme. The money that Wael has converted to equity, he’s going to want back. Hence the reason why he didn’t resort to a cash injection and converted to equity instead. It’s in his interest to accumulate shares but not change the share price. Think your confusing the share prices shown on the FTSE for companies and the ordinary share price, as the latter rarely, if ever, changes. As far as Wael wanting his money back, do you really think a prospective buyer is going to pay the £20m or so which Wael has spent this year alone on a L2 club? Wael clearly sees Rovers as a long term project and the only hope of him getting a decent price for the club is if we ever get a new stadium.
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Post by LJG on Jun 9, 2021 18:41:18 GMT
You mention in one post "equity and equity that no prospective owner will want to take on" and here "an enormous amount of equity". To help allay your fears - equity is not debt so it makes absolutely no odds to any prospective owner how much there is. None whatsoever. I can have 100,000,000 £1 shares in a company and those shares might be worth only a penny. A prospective owner will only pay one penny in that case. I can have 100 £1 shares in a company and those shares might be worth £100,000,000. A prospective owner would have to pay the hundred million. In both cases the nominal value of the shares - what you're calling the equity - is irrelevant to the purchase price. Bristol Rovers Football Club Ltd have 17,887,339 10p shares. That means nothing when it comes to the valuation a prospective purchaser will pay. You and I both well know, that Wael’s intentions are unknown. Nowhere have I seen a change in share price, indeed it stayed the same in the deal to buy more shares from the share scheme. The money that Wael has converted to equity, he’s going to want back. Hence the reason why he didn’t resort to a cash injection and converted to equity instead. It’s in his interest to accumulate shares but not change the share price. Sorry - you seem to be talking about something different now. There isn't a "share price" because it is an unlisted private company not a PLC. So you won't ever see a "share price" which will change. Annual accounts will show the nominal value of the shares and a share premium account if any have been issued above their nominal value. You made the point a couple of times that there is "an enormous amount of equity" which I took to mean a large number of issued shares. The number of shares in issue is meaningless when considering what a potential purchase price may be. I hope that helps with your concerns.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2021 19:10:06 GMT
I’ve been trying my hardest not to get involved in this thread as I just get wound up by it all.... the playing of a ‘concerned’ gas head card by spouting ‘facts’ which are not facts but assumptions or subjective views that align with a particular agenda view..... but at the risk of being called a rose tinter and happy clapper this is what I believe Wael has done that should be praised...
Pre Wael
- Unsustainable debt (yes it was lower than what was accrued since but the directors openly said they could not afford it) - No training ground - High cost loan and external debt - real risk of it being called in - dated run down bars - poor commercial capabilities - limited player investment - no food for players after training - small limited back room staff e.g. limited performance analysis, nutritionist, coaching - Limited and small academy with no reserve team - Overnight stays pre away matches by exception - manual ticketing - poor pitch and pitch drainage - averaged low to mid table league 2 side - limited manual advert - poor communication
Post Wael
- Debt cleared and converted to equity with ongoing costs committed to be covered - no external debt - no risk of administration - modern updated bars - own our own training ground which is being developed to suit our needs - one of the best pitches in the lower leagues - modern digital ticketing - modern updated shop - fantastic and much improved commercial capabilities with bigger revenues and deals - larger improved academy - reserve team - food after training - overnight stays for away games (norm pre COVID) - higher investment in players - new stands (tents admittedly) - improved and increased back room staff - improved scouting capabilities - digital advertising - average mid table league 1 team (this season exception) - improving communication
These are just things off the top of my head rather than any real research. Wael has made mistakes for sure but to suggest he is taking us backwards or has delivered nothing is disingenuous in my opinion...
Rant over.....
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Post by stuart1974 on Jun 9, 2021 19:22:23 GMT
I’ve been trying my hardest not to get involved in this thread as I just get wound up by it all.... the playing of a ‘concerned’ gas head card by spouting ‘facts’ which are not facts but assumptions or subjective views that align with a particular agenda view..... but at the risk of being called a rose tinter and happy clapper this is what I believe Wael has done that should be praised... Pre Wael - Unsustainable debt (yes it was lower than what was accrued since but the directors openly said they could not afford it) - No training ground - High cost loan and external debt - real risk of it being called in - dated run down bars - poor commercial capabilities - limited player investment - no food for players after training - small limited back room staff e.g. limited performance analysis, nutritionist, coaching - Limited and small academy with no reserve team - Overnight stays pre away matches by exception - manual ticketing - poor pitch and pitch drainage - averaged low to mid table league 2 side - limited manual advert - poor communication Post Wael - Debt cleared and converted to equity with ongoing costs committed to be covered - no external debt - no risk of administration - modern updated bars - own our own training ground which is being developed to suit our needs - one of the best pitches in the lower leagues - modern digital ticketing - modern updated shop - fantastic and much improved commercial capabilities with bigger revenues and deals - larger improved academy - reserve team - food after training - overnight stays for away games (norm pre COVID) - higher investment in players - new stands (tents admittedly) - improved and increased back room staff - improved scouting capabilities - digital advertising - average mid table league 1 team (this season exception) - improving communication These are just things off the top of my head rather than any real research. Wael has made mistakes for sure but to suggest he is taking us backwards or has delivered nothing is disingenuous in my opinion... Rant over..... Spot on. The team has gone backwards, the club hasn't.
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Post by holmesgas1 on Jun 9, 2021 19:23:56 GMT
I’ve been trying my hardest not to get involved in this thread as I just get wound up by it all.... the playing of a ‘concerned’ gas head card by spouting ‘facts’ which are not facts but assumptions or subjective views that align with a particular agenda view..... but at the risk of being called a rose tinter and happy clapper this is what I believe Wael has done that should be praised... Pre Wael - Unsustainable debt (yes it was lower than what was accrued since but the directors openly said they could not afford it) - No training ground - High cost loan and external debt - real risk of it being called in - dated run down bars - poor commercial capabilities - limited player investment - no food for players after training - small limited back room staff e.g. limited performance analysis, nutritionist, coaching - Limited and small academy with no reserve team - Overnight stays pre away matches by exception - manual ticketing - poor pitch and pitch drainage - averaged low to mid table league 2 side - limited manual advert - poor communication Post Wael - Debt cleared and converted to equity with ongoing costs committed to be covered - no external debt - no risk of administration - modern updated bars - own our own training ground which is being developed to suit our needs - one of the best pitches in the lower leagues - modern digital ticketing - modern updated shop - fantastic and much improved commercial capabilities with bigger revenues and deals - larger improved academy - reserve team - food after training - overnight stays for away games (norm pre COVID) - higher investment in players - new stands (tents admittedly) - improved and increased back room staff - improved scouting capabilities - digital advertising - average mid table league 1 team (this season exception) - improving communication These are just things off the top of my head rather than any real research. Wael has made mistakes for sure but to suggest he is taking us backwards or has delivered nothing is disingenuous in my opinion... Rant over..... Well said...
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Post by Big Jock on Jun 9, 2021 19:33:24 GMT
I’ve been trying my hardest not to get involved in this thread as I just get wound up by it all.... the playing of a ‘concerned’ gas head card by spouting ‘facts’ which are not facts but assumptions or subjective views that align with a particular agenda view..... but at the risk of being called a rose tinter and happy clapper this is what I believe Wael has done that should be praised... Pre Wael - Unsustainable debt (yes it was lower than what was accrued since but the directors openly said they could not afford it) - No training ground - High cost loan and external debt - real risk of it being called in - dated run down bars - poor commercial capabilities - limited player investment - no food for players after training - small limited back room staff e.g. limited performance analysis, nutritionist, coaching - Limited and small academy with no reserve team - Overnight stays pre away matches by exception - manual ticketing - poor pitch and pitch drainage - averaged low to mid table league 2 side - limited manual advert - poor communication Post Wael - Debt cleared and converted to equity with ongoing costs committed to be covered - no external debt - no risk of administration - modern updated bars - own our own training ground which is being developed to suit our needs - one of the best pitches in the lower leagues - modern digital ticketing - modern updated shop - fantastic and much improved commercial capabilities with bigger revenues and deals - larger improved academy - reserve team - food after training - overnight stays for away games (norm pre COVID) - higher investment in players - new stands (tents admittedly) - improved and increased back room staff - improved scouting capabilities - digital advertising - average mid table league 1 team (this season exception) - improving communication These are just things off the top of my head rather than any real research. Wael has made mistakes for sure but to suggest he is taking us backwards or has delivered nothing is disingenuous in my opinion... Rant over..... Well said BlueStick, th only thing I’d add is…. slowly he culled th folk who thought they alwaes knew better, that caused trouble behind th scenes, that thought they knew best about what they perceived ta be THEIR CLUB, th ones who thought they knew someone who would come in like a white knight an do everything we ever dreamed of. It was their fantasy, nothing more, nothing less an their only last crumb left is ta snipe an whinge on forums, social media etc at th man who is actually tryin ta take us forward sensibly with his own cash. Th one big credit I’ll alwaes give Wael is he puts his money where his mouth is, unlike all of his detractors.
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Post by warehamgas on Jun 9, 2021 19:41:56 GMT
Surprised, pleasantly, this hasn’t been jumped on by the usual group f**ks sake KP, give us time!! Come on Hugo, you know we need a laugh button!! 😀 UTG!
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Post by purdownpoacher1 on Jun 9, 2021 19:51:03 GMT
What is it about the off season that makes the WUMS come out of their caves? What makes you think I’m a WUM, that I don’t have an opinion you agree with? 😄😁😁
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Post by purdownpoacher1 on Jun 9, 2021 19:55:29 GMT
So I realise as a bit of a newbie on this forum that I might be opening myself to accusations ‘of not being one of us’ etc ect, but please hear me out as I just want to depart my tuppence on the ownership situation. When Wael arrived we were all but a league one club. Not having any argument that he took us up in 2016 because he didn’t. That was DC and Higgs’s success and he made a point of very publicly glorying in it. Fair enough I suppose. We now find ourselves a league two club so he’s taken us back a division as far as league position entails. Devolution not evolution then. Stadium? No progress. However more alarming for me is the way it appears Wael is easily led. Feels like he bought too much into the Garner project, we got punished. Influenced too much by Widdrington and Starnes to appoint Tisdale, didn’t go well. Now we’ve allowed the next manager to have control to appoint members to the board, fire entire departments, bring a whole host of figures including Jennings who I’ve heard is next. Who let’s a new manager wield that kind of power? Like Joey and want him to do well, but if the high bar he’s set himself this season isn’t reached which lets be fair is a possibility considering our struggles in L2 in the past, it’ll all end up with tears. You may think its benevolent that Wael appears to be handling the debt situation but asked yourselves why did we rack up that amount of debt just to achieve 0 footballing success, no progress off the field and ultimately relegation in the first place? Even the beloved training ground is having issues, with planning having to be amended halfway through construction after the architects found that the building would not be fit for purpose for a football club. The result? A smallish building designed in the 1990s with a comically lack of windows, a small dingy shed for the gym, a couple of nice pitches and nothing much else. Will they be in for the start of next season? I encourage people to look at the training facilities of Oxford or Fleetwood, or MK Dons, to see how much of a downgrade this is to equivalent football clubs. Rovers fans lap it up due to the lack of progress thats ever been made off the field which is fair enough, but this development has not yet levelled the playing field to other modern football clubs around us, not by a long stretch. Then lets analyse his management of managers shall we? 3 managers have left with clouds over their heads amid rumours of friction with the board in GC, DC and PT. Does that smack of good management to you? The other manager BG got sacked after an atrocious record and the current manager JB, although I’m willing to give him time, has a pretty abysmal record too. Then there’s been fallings out with Ken Masters, fallings out with Steve Hamer, poor treatment of Mansell, embarrassing spat with the supporters club. Not exactly great headlines to accrue. I’m concerned about our future, genuinely concerned. It’s hard to say that but as the football club is close to my heart I’ve just got to speak out and say it. I’m concerned that Wael is rapidly running out funds and has bitten off more than he can chew, I’m concerned about the power we’ve randomly let one manager wield over the club, I’m concerned that an aging fan base and a run down stadium means trouble down the line too. So let me ask you this, say an alternative group of investors came forward, they had funds, reputable contacts in the game, genuine plans for improving the football club. Would this be a ripe opportunity for Wael to step aside? The man has the club at heart as he professes and I’ve not got many bad things to say about the man as a person, so I sincerely hope he considerers his future at the club long term and if the offer is right, steps a side and becomes one of us, a fan. A small shed for a gym😂. Wish I had a shed like that. Some people just moan about anything, looks like you are one of those people. Or just fishing for bites.
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Post by eastgas on Jun 9, 2021 19:57:56 GMT
Welcome to the forum Harrystokegas. Firstly I understand you have concerns as do many others, but ultimately many of the concerns you have listed are based on pure guesswork and speculation. You, me or anyone else other than wael knows how much funding he has available. To say he will run out of money soon based on some calculations by another forum member who has absolutely no knowledge of Waels wealth is just not correct. I could guess that wael has hundreds of millions of pounds available to him but that’s all it would be just a guess. In regards to we were already in league one when he took over isn’t something I would agree with as for all we know the huge amount of positivity created around the club when the al qadi family purchased the club could of played a huge part in our end of season run in. The training ground is more than fit for purpose and to claim its underdeveloped is again opinion. Have you actually visited the site? I can tell you that the gym area is not “a dingy shed” and the main building will not be “comically small” once the extension is taken into account. I believe the build was started with the fact the design wasn’t what they wanted and the extension would be added was known. Are you claiming these things because it’s not super shiny and built from modern materials? Functionality over style for me everyday. A lot of money is being invested here and once all phases are complete I imagine it will be a very impressive training complex. The memorial stadium I can’t disagree with you, but wael knows this also. He has stated these issues many times. I can’t imagine anyone would invest the sums of money wael has without knowing a stadium will one day be built. I have to agree things seem to be moving extremely slowly on this front but I can imagine the last 18 months haven’t helped with this. Wael says we will have a new stadium, and call it bling faith on my part but I have absolutely no reason to disbelieve him. He hasn’t been proven a fantasist or liar yet in my opinion. I covered on another thread my thoughts on the gamble of giving JB so much power but it’s a gamble which ever route wael chooses. I do understand your concerns I just feel you could be a bit more rational with your claims It is a dingy shed not much larger I believe. I have visited the site btw. Some very valid estimations on the other forum have been undertaken about finances, I encourage you to check them out. Wael will get us a new stadium is indeed blind faith, but I’m the one espousing estimations and not being rational. Thanks for your response though. I sense it was more genuine and reasonable than some of the others I’ve had so far. It was a genuine response and was in no way intended as an attack on your post or opinion. It’s a forum and discussing people’s opinions and talking all things gas it’s what it’s for. I do respect your opinions as different as they are to mine. I admitted it’s bling faith for me to believe the stadium will happen but that’s no different to your view on that it won’t. Neither of us know and only time will tell. The poster in question in regards to the finances has posted on here numerous times and I have read posts on other forum. From what I understand about the poster is he is involved in finance and does seem to have a lot of knowledge on the subject. Finance is also my background so also understand this subject well and for me some of what he posts is either misunderstood on their part about what they are saying or they are deliberately confusing people by exaggerating figures and coming to conclusions they can’t possibly know. Again there is no proof either way in this argument and without wael coming out publicly and stating his position it can’t be proven at this point. Again time will tell. One genuine question I would like to know your thoughts on, is that, would you be happy if wael walked away tomorrow? Also do you think we would be better off now without him?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2021 20:00:00 GMT
Thank you last couple of Posters. As I said in a thread a couple of days ago , just all need to be positive about what W is trying to do. I think its great that he is concerned about infrastructure and the legacy that will I hope follow from his efforts. This could be the best thing to happen to us L2 football, (I know it doesn't feel like it). A chance to reset, reboot, re group and learn. A lot of extremely successful people have said they they haven't always got it right but learn by their mistake's.
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