pirate
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Post by pirate on Jul 15, 2021 9:41:20 GMT
It seems to me that much of the narrative isn't actually anti-vax it's rather anti-restriction of liberty. It would be a significant step outside of wartime to require private citizens to carry a "passport" to access services and public spaces - not just talking about attending Rovers here. The comparison with a passport and a driving licence is not a strong one since it is easy for an individual to choose not to travel overseas or drive. It is far less easy to choose to be excluded from everyday life as you have enjoyed it until now. Particularly if shopping centres for example might also have the same requirement. I have some trepidation about that myself and don't consider that I am an "anti-vaxxer" nor a conspiracy theorist. The mocking stuff about what "the man" might do with the information ignores that there are risks behind state control and surveillance. Firstly mistakes can be made resulting in sensitive information ending up where it shouldn't - data losses, hacks etc. And secondly while we are all, relatively, comfortable that we currently have a government without nefarious ends we cannot be sure that that will always be the case. The smartphone argument is a good one and we should all have some concern about the amount of information that large corporations have on us but large corporations do not have an armed forces nor a police force. There is a distinction to be made there. I'm not sure what the answer is but I do think dismissing legitimate concerns about vaccine passports as "anti-vax" crackpot conspiracy is a bit unfair. Then maybe conspiracy corner needs to up its game. I actually love a good conspiracy and have no doubt there are elements of truth in some of them but its a very short leap in narrative from that to calling the Tories are a tyranny and claiming aeroplanes are making the frogs gay. Deary me, another smear and lie at the end there that I'm sure critical thinkers can see through. It's you that needs to "up your game ".
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Jul 15, 2021 9:44:25 GMT
Then maybe conspiracy corner needs to up its game. I actually love a good conspiracy and have no doubt there are elements of truth in some of them but its a very short leap in narrative from that to calling the Tories are a tyranny and claiming aeroplanes are making the frogs gay. Deary me, another smear and lie at the end there that I'm sure critical thinkers can see through. It's you that needs to "up your game ". Where is the lie? You claimed vax passports were tyrannical. Alex Jones claimed the government were making the frogs gay. Neither of those things are accurate.
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Post by Qatar Gas on Jul 15, 2021 9:46:53 GMT
From reading the England Fans Facebook pages and forums, it looks like tons of people now have Covid caught from the last couple of games. This number will probably increase. Personally, I’ve no issue with being made to wear face masks in crowded spaces, even if outside. I know previous data told us only a very small number of people caught Covid whilst being outside. However, this was before crowds were allowed to gather at sporting events or elsewhere, not to mention the previous strains of the virus were not as transmittable as what we are seeing now. As I’ve said before, the UK is one of the only mask wearing countries where you don’t have to wear a mask outside. That begs the question as to what those fans were doing on the matchday. When I was at Wembley, I was surprised by the amount of people drinking, singing and not distancing in big numbers in the concourse area. That felt like a recipe. We saw what happened to the Scots who came down and partied like Covid never existed. Now you take that number, times that by god knows how many and you have a super spreader event!
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Post by oldie on Jul 15, 2021 9:47:34 GMT
Some of the Anti Vax comments on here are pure comedy gold. I have a sneaking admiration for their bravery though. To make a public display of such ignorance and paranoia takes some backbone. In the other hand, it is most likely they dont even see that either. It seems to me that much of the narrative isn't actually anti-vax it's rather anti-restriction of liberty. It would be a significant step outside of wartime to require private citizens to carry a "passport" to access services and public spaces - not just talking about attending Rovers here. The comparison with a passport and a driving licence is not a strong one since it is easy for an individual to choose not to travel overseas or drive. It is far less easy to choose to be excluded from everyday life as you have enjoyed it until now. Particularly if shopping centres for example might also have the same requirement. I have some trepidation about that myself and don't consider that I am an "anti-vaxxer" nor a conspiracy theorist. The mocking stuff about what "the man" might do with the information ignores that there are risks behind state control and surveillance. Firstly mistakes can be made resulting in sensitive information ending up where it shouldn't - data losses, hacks etc. And secondly while we are all, relatively, comfortable that we currently have a government without nefarious ends we cannot be sure that that will always be the case. The smartphone argument is a good one and we should all have some concern about the amount of information that large corporations have on us but large corporations do not have an armed forces nor a police force. There is a distinction to be made there. I'm not sure what the answer is but I do think dismissing legitimate concerns about vaccine passports as "anti-vax" crackpot conspiracy is a bit unfair. I wouldnt disagree to your point. But not on a health issue where the response has been developed by a respected academic institution in the UK and a couple of very clever German / Turkish scientists. The real challenge for us, to agree with you, is the bill going through Parliament which gives the Police extraordinary powers to restrict our right of assembly and protest. So aim accurately, kill the bill, not the elderly.
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pirate
Forum Legend
Posts: 19,355
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Post by pirate on Jul 15, 2021 9:48:19 GMT
Deary me, another smear and lie at the end there that I'm sure critical thinkers can see through. It's you that needs to "up your game ". Where is the lie? You claimed vax passports were tyrannical. Alex Jones claimed the government were making the frogs gay. Neither of those things are accurate. It's only you in this thread that have mentioned Alex Jones and Government making the frogs gay or whatever. Come on Hugo, must try harder.
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Post by axegas on Jul 15, 2021 9:49:45 GMT
Did a bit of research on the 77th brigade, turns out they work to counter COVID misinformation. Now I see why the conspiracy theorists are so keen to spin a narrative against them.
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pirate
Forum Legend
Posts: 19,355
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Post by pirate on Jul 15, 2021 9:56:00 GMT
Did a bit of research on the 77th brigade, turns out they work to counter COVID misinformation. Now I see why the conspiracy theorists are so keen to spin a narrative against them. They are hardly going to say we are using your tax payer money to troll, gaslight and wage psychological war on the general public.
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Post by LJG on Jul 15, 2021 9:56:07 GMT
It seems to me that much of the narrative isn't actually anti-vax it's rather anti-restriction of liberty. It would be a significant step outside of wartime to require private citizens to carry a "passport" to access services and public spaces - not just talking about attending Rovers here. The comparison with a passport and a driving licence is not a strong one since it is easy for an individual to choose not to travel overseas or drive. It is far less easy to choose to be excluded from everyday life as you have enjoyed it until now. Particularly if shopping centres for example might also have the same requirement. I have some trepidation about that myself and don't consider that I am an "anti-vaxxer" nor a conspiracy theorist. The mocking stuff about what "the man" might do with the information ignores that there are risks behind state control and surveillance. Firstly mistakes can be made resulting in sensitive information ending up where it shouldn't - data losses, hacks etc. And secondly while we are all, relatively, comfortable that we currently have a government without nefarious ends we cannot be sure that that will always be the case. The smartphone argument is a good one and we should all have some concern about the amount of information that large corporations have on us but large corporations do not have an armed forces nor a police force. There is a distinction to be made there. I'm not sure what the answer is but I do think dismissing legitimate concerns about vaccine passports as "anti-vax" crackpot conspiracy is a bit unfair. Then maybe conspiracy corner needs to up its game. I actually love a good conspiracy and have no doubt there are elements of truth in some of them but its a very short leap in narrative from that to calling the Tories are a tyranny and claiming aeroplanes are making the frogs gay. Well we know that pollution from the aviation industry is a large factor in climate change and we know that some frog genus are sequential hermaphrodites because of environmental factors so ... who knows? What I will say is that in 2019 it seemed inconceivable that our government would shut down public life, effectively ban people from going to work and make people queue in the streets to visit a supermarket like it was East Germany in 1983. I expect people would have considered anyone saying that Derbyshire police force would be following innocent dog walkers with drones or women carrying take away coffee cups would face fines of potentially up to £10,000 were crackpots. My point is, it's naive to believe that there is no risk to a course of action simply because we aren't fully able to conceive of what that risk might be. I don't think that makes anyone an anti-vaxxer nutter.
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Post by falsenumber9 on Jul 15, 2021 9:58:55 GMT
That begs the question as to what those fans were doing on the matchday. When I was at Wembley, I was surprised by the amount of people drinking, singing and not distancing in big numbers in the concourse area. That felt like a recipe. We saw what happened to the Scots who came down and partied like Covid never existed. Now you take that number, times that by god knows how many and you have a super spreader event! True. I guess my gut feeling is that people largely travel in very small groups to games and the majority wouldn't spend any significant time indoors at our games.
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Post by LJG on Jul 15, 2021 10:05:45 GMT
It seems to me that much of the narrative isn't actually anti-vax it's rather anti-restriction of liberty. It would be a significant step outside of wartime to require private citizens to carry a "passport" to access services and public spaces - not just talking about attending Rovers here. The comparison with a passport and a driving licence is not a strong one since it is easy for an individual to choose not to travel overseas or drive. It is far less easy to choose to be excluded from everyday life as you have enjoyed it until now. Particularly if shopping centres for example might also have the same requirement. I have some trepidation about that myself and don't consider that I am an "anti-vaxxer" nor a conspiracy theorist. The mocking stuff about what "the man" might do with the information ignores that there are risks behind state control and surveillance. Firstly mistakes can be made resulting in sensitive information ending up where it shouldn't - data losses, hacks etc. And secondly while we are all, relatively, comfortable that we currently have a government without nefarious ends we cannot be sure that that will always be the case. The smartphone argument is a good one and we should all have some concern about the amount of information that large corporations have on us but large corporations do not have an armed forces nor a police force. There is a distinction to be made there. I'm not sure what the answer is but I do think dismissing legitimate concerns about vaccine passports as "anti-vax" crackpot conspiracy is a bit unfair. I wouldnt disagree to your point. But not on a health issue where the response has been developed by a respected academic institution in the UK and a couple of very clever German / Turkish scientists. The real challenge for us, to agree with you, is the bill going through Parliament which gives the Police extraordinary powers to restrict our right of assembly and protest. So aim accurately, kill the bill, not the elderly. I think we're talking slight at cross purposes. I don't doubt the efficacy of the vaccines nor the public benefits to having it. What I'm reading in this thread is more concern about the carrying of the passport as proof of vaccination which is a different issue. That would be de facto an ID card to allow access to public life. That is not an insignificant step in the history of this country.
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Post by Wimborne Gas on Jul 15, 2021 10:06:24 GMT
I'm off to General Chat to chill out.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2021 10:08:55 GMT
I'm off to General Chat to chill out. 🤣
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Jul 15, 2021 10:09:28 GMT
Then maybe conspiracy corner needs to up its game. I actually love a good conspiracy and have no doubt there are elements of truth in some of them but its a very short leap in narrative from that to calling the Tories are a tyranny and claiming aeroplanes are making the frogs gay. Well we know that pollution from the aviation industry is a large factor in climate change and we know that some frog genus are sequential hermaphrodites because of environmental factors so ... who knows? What I will say is that in 2019 it seemed inconceivable that our government would shut down public life, effectively ban people from going to work and make people queue in the streets to visit a supermarket like it was East Germany in 1983. I expect people would have considered anyone saying that Derbyshire police force would be following innocent dog walkers with drones or women carrying take away coffee cups would face fines of potentially up to £10,000 were crackpots. My point is, it's naive to believe that there is no risk to a course of action simply because we aren't fully able to conceive of what that risk might be. I don't think that makes anyone an anti-vaxxer nutter. Lots of aquatic species are able to change sex. Clown fish for example. Nemos dad would have turned female and mated with his son in real life. The satanist lizards at Disney have kept that quiet havent they.
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Post by oldie on Jul 15, 2021 10:13:37 GMT
I'm off to General Chat to chill out. I will be waiting for you, as the devil incarnate.
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Post by axegas on Jul 15, 2021 10:15:51 GMT
Well we know that pollution from the aviation industry is a large factor in climate change and we know that some frog genus are sequential hermaphrodites because of environmental factors so ... who knows? What I will say is that in 2019 it seemed inconceivable that our government would shut down public life, effectively ban people from going to work and make people queue in the streets to visit a supermarket like it was East Germany in 1983. I expect people would have considered anyone saying that Derbyshire police force would be following innocent dog walkers with drones or women carrying take away coffee cups would face fines of potentially up to £10,000 were crackpots. My point is, it's naive to believe that there is no risk to a course of action simply because we aren't fully able to conceive of what that risk might be. I don't think that makes anyone an anti-vaxxer nutter. Lots of aquatic species are able to change sex. Clown fish for example. Nemos dad would have turned female and mated with his son in real life. The satanist lizards at Disney have kept that quiet havent they. Thanks for completely ruining Finding Nemo for me.
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Post by LJG on Jul 15, 2021 10:16:42 GMT
Well we know that pollution from the aviation industry is a large factor in climate change and we know that some frog genus are sequential hermaphrodites because of environmental factors so ... who knows? What I will say is that in 2019 it seemed inconceivable that our government would shut down public life, effectively ban people from going to work and make people queue in the streets to visit a supermarket like it was East Germany in 1983. I expect people would have considered anyone saying that Derbyshire police force would be following innocent dog walkers with drones or women carrying take away coffee cups would face fines of potentially up to £10,000 were crackpots. My point is, it's naive to believe that there is no risk to a course of action simply because we aren't fully able to conceive of what that risk might be. I don't think that makes anyone an anti-vaxxer nutter. Lots of aquatic species are able to change sex. Clown fish for example. Nemos dad would have turned female and mated with his son in real life. The satanist lizards at Disney have kept that quiet havent they. I hated Finding Nemo. What an awful film. Way too much sadness and almost no pay off whatsoever.
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Post by oldie on Jul 15, 2021 10:23:54 GMT
I wouldnt disagree to your point. But not on a health issue where the response has been developed by a respected academic institution in the UK and a couple of very clever German / Turkish scientists. The real challenge for us, to agree with you, is the bill going through Parliament which gives the Police extraordinary powers to restrict our right of assembly and protest. So aim accurately, kill the bill, not the elderly. I think we're talking slight at cross purposes. I don't doubt the efficacy of the vaccines nor the public benefits to having it. What I'm reading in this thread is more concern about the carrying of the passport as proof of vaccination which is a different issue. That would be de facto an ID card to allow access to public life. That is not an insignificant step in the history of this country. Its a compromise, on the journey of wresting back control from this virus. Personally I have no problem showing my vaccine status, or my test results. Just as I have no problem showing my driving licence when requested in a traffic stop. A degree of consent is required in any democracy that does not govern by force. The thing with showing your health status to a venue or travel facility is that the process is a pain in the ass to the provider. Costly and unproductive. In the end this will kill it, as soon as we agree the worse of this pandemic is behind us. I would never carry an ID Card as a point of principle, for the record. Equally I would break the law if the current bill going through Parliament is passed as it is currently worded.
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Post by gasandelectricity on Jul 15, 2021 10:26:35 GMT
Well we know that pollution from the aviation industry is a large factor in climate change and we know that some frog genus are sequential hermaphrodites because of environmental factors so ... who knows? What I will say is that in 2019 it seemed inconceivable that our government would shut down public life, effectively ban people from going to work and make people queue in the streets to visit a supermarket like it was East Germany in 1983. I expect people would have considered anyone saying that Derbyshire police force would be following innocent dog walkers with drones or women carrying take away coffee cups would face fines of potentially up to £10,000 were crackpots. My point is, it's naive to believe that there is no risk to a course of action simply because we aren't fully able to conceive of what that risk might be. I don't think that makes anyone an anti-vaxxer nutter. Lots of aquatic species are able to change sex. Clown fish for example. Nemos dad would have turned female and mated with his son in real life. The satanist lizards at Disney have kept that quiet havent they. That’ll explain why my pond is suddenly ram di dam with little half inch goldfish
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Jul 15, 2021 10:28:01 GMT
I think we're talking slight at cross purposes. I don't doubt the efficacy of the vaccines nor the public benefits to having it. What I'm reading in this thread is more concern about the carrying of the passport as proof of vaccination which is a different issue. That would be de facto an ID card to allow access to public life. That is not an insignificant step in the history of this country. Its a compromise, on the journey of wresting back control from this virus. Personally I have no problem showing my vaccine status, or my test results. Just as I have no problem showing my driving licence when requested in a traffic stop. A degree of consent is required in any democracy that does not govern by force. The thing with showing your health status to a venue or travel facility is that the process is a pain in the ass to the provider. Costly and unproductive. In the end this will kill it, as soon as we agree the worse of this pandemic is behind us. I would never carry an ID Card as a point of principle, for the record. Equally I would break the law if the current bill going through Parliament is passed as it is currently worded. Me too and I've had both Jabs!
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Post by RD on Jul 15, 2021 10:38:47 GMT
From reading the England Fans Facebook pages and forums, it looks like tons of people now have Covid caught from the last couple of games. This number will probably increase. Personally, I’ve no issue with being made to wear face masks in crowded spaces, even if outside. I know previous data told us only a very small number of people caught Covid whilst being outside. However, this was before crowds were allowed to gather at sporting events or elsewhere, not to mention the previous strains of the virus were not as transmittable as what we are seeing now. As I’ve said before, the UK is one of the only mask wearing countries where you don’t have to wear a mask outside. People get the flu. It's well documented. Follow the science 😁😁😁 If you followed the science you might have a shred of knowledge that you could add to the subject. Unfortunately it's clear you have no concept whatsoever of science.
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