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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2021 7:11:21 GMT
You could of made a similar argument about Nazi Germany. “Who are we to judge what the Germans do, we’ve got enough problems on our own plate” Luckily our leaders at the time didn’t subscribe to that way of thinking. Bosnia, Kosovo, East Timor, Sierra Leone? Bet they all wished we stayed out too. You could at least try picking some countries that hadn't previously been attacked or influenced by western nations. The US backed fascist militants to de-stabilise & overthrow communist Yugoslavia, that led to civil war and the atrocities. East Timor civil war was the aftermath of Indonesia being colonised by the west. The US and UK backed all sorts of dictators in Africa in order to keep trade routes open to expoitation. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Aug 18, 2021 7:13:40 GMT
Bosnia, Kosovo, East Timor, Sierra Leone? Bet they all wished we stayed out too. You could at least try picking some countries that hadn't previously been attacked or influenced by western nations. The US backed fascist militants to de-stabilise & overthrow communist Yugoslavia, that led to civil war and the atrocities. East Timor civil war was the aftermath of Indonesia being colonised by the west. The US and UK backed all sorts of dictators in Africa in order to keep trade routes open to expoitation. South Korea? |
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Post by stuart1974 on Aug 18, 2021 7:39:24 GMT
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Post by oldie on Aug 18, 2021 7:57:33 GMT
It was only a few hundred years ago that petty convicts were transported to Australia from the UK & Ireland, 162,000 mainly poor and accused of petty crimes. The Taliban are disgusting, using religion for brutally control, but they may be little worse than what we had in England not so long ago. Nope, still no comparison. Sorry. I appreciate you want to justify non intervention but that's not really showing understanding of the reality on the ground. And what pro interventionists dont want to admit is that we, in the west, have been key causal factors in the problems in the region. Saying "why should I give a f**k about history" doesnt cut it. Given, especially, that the UK is so keen on celebrating history when it suits. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Aug 18, 2021 8:12:26 GMT
Nope, still no comparison. Sorry. I appreciate you want to justify non intervention but that's not really showing understanding of the reality on the ground. And what pro interventionists dont want to admit is that we, in the west, have been key causal factors in the problems in the region. Saying "why should I give a f**k about history" doesnt cut it. Given, especially, that the UK is so keen on celebrating history when it suits. Not in my case, Les, far from it. If anything I would feel a debt to be partially repaid if we helped. Besides, under what circumstances would you accept intervention? If it's based on having history then I suspect nobody would ever get involved anywhere (it's not just Britain, the US and Europe in general, plenty of nations have 'history'). At some point we can't be held back by what our forefathers did, our children would never forgive us. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2021 8:48:45 GMT
Just caught the backend of newsnight, we’re taking in 20,000 Afghan refugees. 👏 to Johnson & the right wing ghouls Where are they going to house them? In racist or non-racist areas? are there any non-racist areas left on this island? What about Afghan number 20,001? They'll have to stay in that godforsaken hell whilst there could have been Taliban terrorists taking up space in the original 20,000? Maybe the UK should create a bomb/refugee ratio, and Afghan family (max. 2 kids) admitted per 4 drone strikes? Do our homeless get 'taken in' too? All questions Government will not answer on our next episode of Newsnight. |
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Post by oldie on Aug 18, 2021 8:56:29 GMT
And what pro interventionists dont want to admit is that we, in the west, have been key causal factors in the problems in the region. Saying "why should I give a f**k about history" doesnt cut it. Given, especially, that the UK is so keen on celebrating history when it suits. Not in my case, Les, far from it. If anything I would feel a debt to be partially repaid if we helped. Besides, under what circumstances would you accept intervention? If it's based on having history then I suspect nobody would ever get involved anywhere (it's not just Britain, the US and Europe in general, plenty of nations have 'history'). At some point we can't be held back by what our forefathers did, our children would never forgive us. I think, what motivates my thinking, is a desire to break the cycle. We will only do that through education and the acknowledgement of our history and mistakes. At the moment I see little evidence of that happening. Take the self righteous propaganda being played out today, proclaiming how great we all are for taking in 20,000 Afghans who are in fear of their lives, a game of holier than thou being played out by rich nations in the west who vie for the "biggest" number. There is little or no reference to what has happened in the past, other than some nauseating British Army commander proudly announcing we were never beaten on the battlefield. That may well be true, I wouldnt know nor can conceive what that sort of victory looks like, nor can I believe thats any solace to the families of the 400+ young men who lost their lives for the square root of nothing. We were never going to win a war with the Afghan Taliban unless we took over the country completely. As we did not in Iraq. On a more parochial note I wonder where these Afghan evacuees will be located to? Bet your bottom dollar it will not be to the leafy suburbs in Surrey. Hello Leicester, plenty of capacity there. In direct answer to your question, why are we not intervening in the humanitarian disaster in Haiti this morning? People sitting in open fields, homes destroyed and a tropical storm. I am all for confronting totalitarian regimes, where we can. We could start by not arming them in the first place. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Aug 18, 2021 9:01:00 GMT
Remnds me if the Starfish Story, it forms part of my son's school.
The Starfish Story
The name of the business is synonymous with the story of the starfish thrower by Loren Eiseley 1907 – 1977.
Once upon a time, there was a wise man who used to go to the ocean to do his writing. He had a habit of walking on the beach before he began his work.
One day, as he was walking along the shore, he looked down the beach and saw a human figure moving like a dancer. He smiled to himself at the thought of someone who would dance to the day, and so, he walked faster to catch up. As he got closer, he noticed that the figure was that of a young woman, and that what she was doing was not dancing at all.
The young woman was reaching down to the shore, picking up small objects, and throwing them into the ocean. He came closer still and called out "Good morning! May I ask what it is that you are doing?". The young woman paused, looked up, and replied "Throwing starfish into the ocean". "I must ask, then, why are you throwing starfish into the ocean?" asked the somewhat startled wise man.
To this, the young woman replied, "The sun is up and the tide is going out. If I don't throw them in, they'll die". Upon hearing this, the wise man commented, "But, young lady, do you not realise that there are miles and miles of beach and there are starfish all along every mile? You can't possibly make a difference!".
At this, the young woman bent down, picked up yet another starfish, and threw it into the ocean. As it met the water, she said, "I made a difference to that one!"
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Post by oldie on Aug 18, 2021 9:08:23 GMT
Remnds me if the Starfish Story, it forms part of my son's school. The Starfish Story The name of the business is synonymous with the story of the starfish thrower by Loren Eiseley 1907 – 1977. Once upon a time, there was a wise man who used to go to the ocean to do his writing. He had a habit of walking on the beach before he began his work. One day, as he was walking along the shore, he looked down the beach and saw a human figure moving like a dancer. He smiled to himself at the thought of someone who would dance to the day, and so, he walked faster to catch up. As he got closer, he noticed that the figure was that of a young woman, and that what she was doing was not dancing at all. The young woman was reaching down to the shore, picking up small objects, and throwing them into the ocean. He came closer still and called out "Good morning! May I ask what it is that you are doing?". The young woman paused, looked up, and replied "Throwing starfish into the ocean". "I must ask, then, why are you throwing starfish into the ocean?" asked the somewhat startled wise man. To this, the young woman replied, "The sun is up and the tide is going out. If I don't throw them in, they'll die". Upon hearing this, the wise man commented, "But, young lady, do you not realise that there are miles and miles of beach and there are starfish all along every mile? You can't possibly make a difference!". At this, the young woman bent down, picked up yet another starfish, and threw it into the ocean. As it met the water, she said, "I made a difference to that one!" But she didnt mention that we had so polluted the oceans that we were poisoning the starfish in far greater numbers than natural attrition. Root cause and effect and all that. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2021 9:29:58 GMT
Remnds me if the Starfish Story, it forms part of my son's school. The Starfish Story The name of the business is synonymous with the story of the starfish thrower by Loren Eiseley 1907 – 1977. Once upon a time, there was a wise man who used to go to the ocean to do his writing. He had a habit of walking on the beach before he began his work. One day, as he was walking along the shore, he looked down the beach and saw a human figure moving like a dancer. He smiled to himself at the thought of someone who would dance to the day, and so, he walked faster to catch up. As he got closer, he noticed that the figure was that of a young woman, and that what she was doing was not dancing at all. The young woman was reaching down to the shore, picking up small objects, and throwing them into the ocean. He came closer still and called out "Good morning! May I ask what it is that you are doing?". The young woman paused, looked up, and replied "Throwing starfish into the ocean". "I must ask, then, why are you throwing starfish into the ocean?" asked the somewhat startled wise man. To this, the young woman replied, "The sun is up and the tide is going out. If I don't throw them in, they'll die". Upon hearing this, the wise man commented, "But, young lady, do you not realise that there are miles and miles of beach and there are starfish all along every mile? You can't possibly make a difference!". At this, the young woman bent down, picked up yet another starfish, and threw it into the ocean. As it met the water, she said, "I made a difference to that one!" But she didnt mention that we had so polluted the oceans that we were poisoning the starfish in far greater numbers than natural attrition. Root cause and effect and all that. There were also millions of landmines along that beach. And some of the starfish faced extraordinary rendition & torture. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Aug 18, 2021 9:38:21 GMT
Not in my case, Les, far from it. If anything I would feel a debt to be partially repaid if we helped. Besides, under what circumstances would you accept intervention? If it's based on having history then I suspect nobody would ever get involved anywhere (it's not just Britain, the US and Europe in general, plenty of nations have 'history'). At some point we can't be held back by what our forefathers did, our children would never forgive us. I think, what motivates my thinking, is a desire to break the cycle. We will only do that through education and the acknowledgement of our history and mistakes. At the moment I see little evidence of that happening. Take the self righteous propaganda being played out today, proclaiming how great we all are for taking in 20,000 Afghans who are in fear of their lives, a game of holier than thou being played out by rich nations in the west who vie for the "biggest" number. There is little or no reference to what has happened in the past, other than some nauseating British Army commander proudly announcing we were never beaten on the battlefield. That may well be true, I wouldnt know nor can conceive what that sort of victory looks like, nor can I believe thats any solace to the families of the 400+ young men who lost their lives for the square root of nothing. We were never going to win a war with the Afghan Taliban unless we took over the country completely. As we did not in Iraq. On a more parochial note I wonder where these Afghan evacuees will be located to? Bet your bottom dollar it will not be to the leafy suburbs in Surrey. Hello Leicester, plenty of capacity there. In direct answer to your question, why are we not intervening in the humanitarian disaster in Haiti this morning? People sitting in open fields, homes destroyed and a tropical storm. I am all for confronting totalitarian regimes, where we can. We could start by not arming them in the first place. We have helped in the past and no doubt will again. The RFA are regularly deployed to the Caribbean during hurricane season to land supplies and provide support. I'd also welcome more so I hope you aren't accusing me of double standards. As for not arming them in the first place, not sure the West is solely to blame, often not even that significantly either. Edited to add: RFA Wave Knight and HMS Medway are in the Caribbean and are waiting for tasking, if requested. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Aug 18, 2021 9:48:00 GMT
Remnds me if the Starfish Story, it forms part of my son's school. The Starfish Story The name of the business is synonymous with the story of the starfish thrower by Loren Eiseley 1907 – 1977. Once upon a time, there was a wise man who used to go to the ocean to do his writing. He had a habit of walking on the beach before he began his work. One day, as he was walking along the shore, he looked down the beach and saw a human figure moving like a dancer. He smiled to himself at the thought of someone who would dance to the day, and so, he walked faster to catch up. As he got closer, he noticed that the figure was that of a young woman, and that what she was doing was not dancing at all. The young woman was reaching down to the shore, picking up small objects, and throwing them into the ocean. He came closer still and called out "Good morning! May I ask what it is that you are doing?". The young woman paused, looked up, and replied "Throwing starfish into the ocean". "I must ask, then, why are you throwing starfish into the ocean?" asked the somewhat startled wise man. To this, the young woman replied, "The sun is up and the tide is going out. If I don't throw them in, they'll die". Upon hearing this, the wise man commented, "But, young lady, do you not realise that there are miles and miles of beach and there are starfish all along every mile? You can't possibly make a difference!". At this, the young woman bent down, picked up yet another starfish, and threw it into the ocean. As it met the water, she said, "I made a difference to that one!" But she didnt mention that we had so polluted the oceans that we were poisoning the starfish in far greater numbers than natural attrition. Root cause and effect and all that. The correct analogy for this discussion would be for you and Grover to tell the girl that because her grandfather had thrown plastic into the ocean that she shouldn't bother removing the plastic. 😕 |
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Post by oldie on Aug 18, 2021 10:08:00 GMT
But she didnt mention that we had so polluted the oceans that we were poisoning the starfish in far greater numbers than natural attrition. Root cause and effect and all that. The correct analogy for this discussion would be for you and Grover to tell the girl that because her grandfather had thrown plastic into the ocean that she shouldn't bother removing the plastic. 😕 Not quite Stuart. It would be "Hello little girl, would you mind picking up the plastic your grandfather dropped here, its killing the sea life" To which, the little girl says "Oh my god yes. Why did he do that?" Thats the killer question if we tell the truth to our kids, why did we do that. |
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Post by oldie on Aug 18, 2021 10:09:10 GMT
I think, what motivates my thinking, is a desire to break the cycle. We will only do that through education and the acknowledgement of our history and mistakes. At the moment I see little evidence of that happening. Take the self righteous propaganda being played out today, proclaiming how great we all are for taking in 20,000 Afghans who are in fear of their lives, a game of holier than thou being played out by rich nations in the west who vie for the "biggest" number. There is little or no reference to what has happened in the past, other than some nauseating British Army commander proudly announcing we were never beaten on the battlefield. That may well be true, I wouldnt know nor can conceive what that sort of victory looks like, nor can I believe thats any solace to the families of the 400+ young men who lost their lives for the square root of nothing. We were never going to win a war with the Afghan Taliban unless we took over the country completely. As we did not in Iraq. On a more parochial note I wonder where these Afghan evacuees will be located to? Bet your bottom dollar it will not be to the leafy suburbs in Surrey. Hello Leicester, plenty of capacity there. In direct answer to your question, why are we not intervening in the humanitarian disaster in Haiti this morning? People sitting in open fields, homes destroyed and a tropical storm. I am all for confronting totalitarian regimes, where we can. We could start by not arming them in the first place. We have helped in the past and no doubt will again. The RFA are regularly deployed to the Caribbean during hurricane season to land supplies and provide support. I'd also welcome more so I hope you aren't accusing me of double standards. As for not arming them in the first place, not sure the West is solely to blame, often not even that significantly either. Edited to add: RFA Wave Knight and HMS Medway are in the Caribbean and are waiting for tasking, if requested. "Edited to add: RFA Wave Knight and HMS Medway are in the Caribbean and are waiting for tasking, if requested." I bow to your greater knowledge on these matters. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Aug 18, 2021 10:33:05 GMT
The correct analogy for this discussion would be for you and Grover to tell the girl that because her grandfather had thrown plastic into the ocean that she shouldn't bother removing the plastic. 😕 Not quite Stuart. It would be "Hello little girl, would you mind picking up the plastic your grandfather dropped here, its killing the sea life" To which, the little girl says "Oh my god yes. Why did he do that?" Thats the killer question if we tell the truth to our kids, why did we do that. No reason why she couldn’t pick it up and learn why it was there in the first place. 👍 |
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Post by oldie on Aug 18, 2021 10:33:58 GMT
Not quite Stuart. It would be "Hello little girl, would you mind picking up the plastic your grandfather dropped here, its killing the sea life" To which, the little girl says "Oh my god yes. Why did he do that?" Thats the killer question if we tell the truth to our kids, why did we do that. No reason why she couldn’t pick it up and learn why it was there in the first place. 👍 Exactly |
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Post by Officer Barbrady on Aug 18, 2021 10:35:13 GMT
The correct analogy for this discussion would be for you and Grover to tell the girl that because her grandfather had thrown plastic into the ocean that she shouldn't bother removing the plastic. 😕 Not quite Stuart. It would be "Hello little girl, would you mind picking up the plastic your grandfather dropped here, its killing the sea life" To which, the little girl says "Oh my god yes. Why did he do that?" Thats the killer question if we tell the truth to our kids, why did we do that. And then presumably subsequently drawing the wrath of a thousand middle aged gammons. |
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Post by oldie on Aug 18, 2021 11:12:32 GMT
Not quite Stuart. It would be "Hello little girl, would you mind picking up the plastic your grandfather dropped here, its killing the sea life" To which, the little girl says "Oh my god yes. Why did he do that?" Thats the killer question if we tell the truth to our kids, why did we do that. And then presumably subsequently drawing the wrath of a thousand middle aged gammons. Whilst they wave the flag and singing "Land of Hope & Glory" |
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Post by axegas on Aug 18, 2021 13:34:12 GMT
Nope, still no comparison. Sorry. I appreciate you want to justify non intervention but that's not really showing understanding of the reality on the ground. And what pro interventionists dont want to admit is that we, in the west, have been key causal factors in the problems in the region. Saying "why should I give a f**k about history" doesnt cut it. Given, especially, that the UK is so keen on celebrating history when it suits. But you as an anti-interventionist were particularly selective about the History you referred to earlier. House of Saud ect. So much as there are people that are keen on celebrating history as it suits, there are also people that are keen on condemning history when it suits. Both are important things to do. I’d just like a bit of balance. |
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Post by axegas on Aug 18, 2021 13:49:51 GMT
Bosnia, Kosovo, East Timor, Sierra Leone? Bet they all wished we stayed out too. You could at least try picking some countries that hadn't previously been attacked or influenced by western nations. The US backed fascist militants to de-stabilise & overthrow communist Yugoslavia, that led to civil war and the atrocities. East Timor civil war was the aftermath of Indonesia being colonised by the west. The US and UK backed all sorts of dictators in Africa in order to keep trade routes open to expoitation. That’s just categorically untrue, and anyone that makes arguments that Srebrenica was anything but the result of Serb brutality loses respect in my eyes. The US actually gave economic aid to Yugoslavia after it exited the Soviet bloc, a fact commonly forgotten. |
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