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Post by stuart1974 on Aug 27, 2021 11:01:49 GMT
The Defence Select Committee is to start a post withdrawal inquiry, can see a lot of bucks being passed there.
Meanwhile:
"The chair of the Foreign Affairs Committee tells Sky News the government could be facing the "biggest hostage crisis the UK has ever seen".
Tom Tugendhat said it was "completely extraordinary" that US forces were sharing intelligence with the Taliban and that he was "very, very concerned" about those eligible to come to the UK being left behind.
This could be hundreds or thousands of people, he adds.
"Defeat means you don't get a say... we have just been defeated, we have no influence over Kabul anymore.
"We have no influence over the behavior of the Taliban except by asking them nicely and luring them with aid to help people who they are quite happy to kill."
This is "our moment to stand with" the people left in Kabul, he adds."
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Post by stuart1974 on Aug 29, 2021 12:24:50 GMT
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Post by stuart1974 on Aug 29, 2021 12:26:31 GMT
Realpolitik. 😐
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Post by oldie on Aug 29, 2021 12:31:41 GMT
Back to the future? This what they did with Bin Laden to fight the Russians. That ended well |
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Post by stuart1974 on Aug 29, 2021 12:40:47 GMT
Back to the future? This what they did with Bin Laden to fight the Russians. That ended well They backed the Mujahideen, not Bin Laden. He was supported by Gulf States and Pakistan. |
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Post by oldie on Aug 29, 2021 12:55:45 GMT
Back to the future? This what they did with Bin Laden to fight the Russians. That ended well They backed the Mujahideen, not Bin Laden. He was supported by Gulf States and Pakistan. Proxies for the west The military/industrial complex in the Gulf States was non existent in the 1980s. Pakistan, well where does the border start and end in reality? |
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Post by stuart1974 on Aug 29, 2021 13:02:18 GMT
They backed the Mujahideen, not Bin Laden. He was supported by Gulf States and Pakistan. Proxies for the west The military/industrial complex in the Gulf States was non existent in the 1980s. Pakistan, well where does the border start and end in reality? Sorry, that's not the case, especially with regards to Pakistan. Besides, most of it was money related which they did have. A lot of their arms were ironically former Soviet or former Soviet client states. That's my understanding anyway, do you have any links I can check with? |
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Post by oldie on Aug 29, 2021 13:41:54 GMT
Stuart
"Operation Cyclone was the code name for the United States Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) program to arm and finance the Afghan mujahideen in Afghanistan from 1979 to 1989, prior to and during the military intervention by the USSR in support of the Democratic Republic of Afghanistan. The mujahideen were also supported by Britain's MI6, who conducted separate covert actions. The program leaned heavily towards supporting militant Islamic groups, including groups with jihadist ties, that were favored by the regime of Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq in neighboring Pakistan, rather than other, less ideological Afghan resistance groups that had also been fighting the Soviet-oriented Democratic Republic of Afghanistan regime since before the Soviet intervention.[1]"
As in all things in this region, it's not accurate to differentiate using names like
Mujahedeen. For example across the border in Iran a group with that name was linked with the local communist party.
To believe that we can get involved and claim surgical demarcation lines amongst these groups is just not realistic.
I believe, I know you do not, that these attempts to do so are just cover stories to keep the truth from the electorate in western democracies.
Much to the detriment of those democracies themselves.
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Post by stuart1974 on Aug 29, 2021 14:13:54 GMT
Stuart "Operation Cyclone was the code name for the United States Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) program to arm and finance the Afghan mujahideen in Afghanistan from 1979 to 1989, prior to and during the military intervention by the USSR in support of the Democratic Republic of Afghanistan. The mujahideen were also supported by Britain's MI6, who conducted separate covert actions. The program leaned heavily towards supporting militant Islamic groups, including groups with jihadist ties, that were favored by the regime of Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq in neighboring Pakistan, rather than other, less ideological Afghan resistance groups that had also been fighting the Soviet-oriented Democratic Republic of Afghanistan regime since before the Soviet intervention.[1]" As in all things in this region, it's not accurate to differentiate using names like Mujahedeen. For example across the border in Iran a group with that name was linked with the local communist party. To believe that we can get involved and claim surgical demarcation lines amongst these groups is just not realistic. I believe, I know you do not, that these attempts to do so are just cover stories to keep the truth from the electorate in western democracies. Much to the detriment of those democracies themselves. If we are quoting from Wiki then this bit is also on that Operation Cyclone page: "Some have alleged that bin Laden and al Qaeda were beneficiaries of CIA assistance. This is challenged by experts such as Coll—who notes that declassified CIA records and interviews with CIA officers do not support such claims[70]—and Peter Bergen, who argues: "It's worth mentioning here that there is simply no evidence for the common myth that bin Laden and his Afghan Arabs were supported by the CIA financially. Nor is there any evidence that CIA officials at any level met with bin Laden or anyone in his circle."[71] Bergen insists that U.S. funding went to the Afghan mujahideen, not the Arab volunteers who arrived to assist them.[72] However, Sir Martin Ewans noted that the Afghan Arabs "benefited indirectly from the CIA's funding, through the ISI and resistance organizations,"[73] and that "it has been reckoned that as many as 35,000 'Arab-Afghans' may have received military training in Pakistan at an estimated cost of $800 million in the years up to and including 1988."[74] Some of the CIA's greatest Afghan beneficiaries were Arabist commanders such as Haqqani and Hekmatyar who were key allies of bin Laden over many years.[75][76] Haqqani—one of bin Laden's closest associates in the 1980s—received direct cash payments from CIA agents, without the mediation of the ISI. This independent source of funding gave Haqqani disproportionate influence over the mujahideen.[48] Haqqani and his network played an important role in the formation and growth of al Qaeda, with Jalalhuddin Haqqani allowing bin Laden to train mujahideen volunteers in Haqqani territory and build extensive infrastructure there.[77] Milton Bearden, the CIA's Islamabad station chief from mid-1986 until mid-1989, took an admiring view of bin Laden at the time.[78]" All in all, I think we may be talking at crossed purposes. I don't think the West supported Bin Laden directly but agree there were lots of underhand practices going on (it was the Cold War and plenty happened from many of the participants). He may well have benefitted indirectly, probably via third parties. This link suggests Bin Laden was grateful to the US initially. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_CIA_assistance_to_Osama_bin_Laden |
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Post by oldie on Aug 29, 2021 14:20:24 GMT
Stuart "Operation Cyclone was the code name for the United States Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) program to arm and finance the Afghan mujahideen in Afghanistan from 1979 to 1989, prior to and during the military intervention by the USSR in support of the Democratic Republic of Afghanistan. The mujahideen were also supported by Britain's MI6, who conducted separate covert actions. The program leaned heavily towards supporting militant Islamic groups, including groups with jihadist ties, that were favored by the regime of Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq in neighboring Pakistan, rather than other, less ideological Afghan resistance groups that had also been fighting the Soviet-oriented Democratic Republic of Afghanistan regime since before the Soviet intervention.[1]" As in all things in this region, it's not accurate to differentiate using names like Mujahedeen. For example across the border in Iran a group with that name was linked with the local communist party. To believe that we can get involved and claim surgical demarcation lines amongst these groups is just not realistic. I believe, I know you do not, that these attempts to do so are just cover stories to keep the truth from the electorate in western democracies. Much to the detriment of those democracies themselves. If we are quoting from Wiki then this bit is also on that Operation Cyclone page: "Some have alleged that bin Laden and al Qaeda were beneficiaries of CIA assistance. This is challenged by experts such as Coll—who notes that declassified CIA records and interviews with CIA officers do not support such claims[70]—and Peter Bergen, who argues: "It's worth mentioning here that there is simply no evidence for the common myth that bin Laden and his Afghan Arabs were supported by the CIA financially. Nor is there any evidence that CIA officials at any level met with bin Laden or anyone in his circle."[71] Bergen insists that U.S. funding went to the Afghan mujahideen, not the Arab volunteers who arrived to assist them.[72] However, Sir Martin Ewans noted that the Afghan Arabs "benefited indirectly from the CIA's funding, through the ISI and resistance organizations,"[73] and that "it has been reckoned that as many as 35,000 'Arab-Afghans' may have received military training in Pakistan at an estimated cost of $800 million in the years up to and including 1988."[74] Some of the CIA's greatest Afghan beneficiaries were Arabist commanders such as Haqqani and Hekmatyar who were key allies of bin Laden over many years.[75][76] Haqqani—one of bin Laden's closest associates in the 1980s—received direct cash payments from CIA agents, without the mediation of the ISI. This independent source of funding gave Haqqani disproportionate influence over the mujahideen.[48] Haqqani and his network played an important role in the formation and growth of al Qaeda, with Jalalhuddin Haqqani allowing bin Laden to train mujahideen volunteers in Haqqani territory and build extensive infrastructure there.[77] Milton Bearden, the CIA's Islamabad station chief from mid-1986 until mid-1989, took an admiring view of bin Laden at the time.[78]" All in all, I think we may be talking at crossed purposes. I don't think the West supported Bin Laden directly but agree there were lots of underhand practices going on (it was the Cold War and plenty happened from many of the participants). He may well have benefitted indirectly, probably via third parties. This link suggests Bin Laden was grateful to the US initially. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_CIA_assistance_to_Osama_bin_LadenWe are on the same page in reality. I believe though that if you pour money and arms into the middle East, you cannot control where it ends up. The CIA, and the UK know this, but try and pretend otherwise. God knows how many have died as a result |
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Post by stuart1974 on Aug 31, 2021 12:07:56 GMT
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Post by lulworthgas on Aug 31, 2021 15:47:35 GMT
He will need all the luck in the world when he comes across the lunatics that preside outside of Kabul |
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Post by stuart1974 on Aug 31, 2021 17:06:44 GMT
He will need all the luck in the world when he comes across the lunatics that preside outside of Kabul But the Taliban have changed.....😶 How are you Lulworth, not posted for a while. Hope all is well with you and yours. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2021 14:04:17 GMT
Never hear much about the religious aspect of the war on Afghanistan, everyone seems to think that us modern westerners are the most dignified 'race', but are then happy to continue the bloodthirsty crusades that have been going on in for thousands of years.
Nothing's changed really, only aesthetics.
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Post by axegas on Sept 2, 2021 13:40:54 GMT
Good video on the background of ISIS-K if anyone is interested.
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Post by axegas on Dec 16, 2021 22:59:20 GMT
Insightful documentary on the current plight of Afghanistan.
Personally think that despite the Taliban’s ultra conservative rule and bloody rise to power once again, it’s wrong to withhold humanitarian aid that will be the difference between children starving or not this winter. I mean even North Korea gets humanitarian assistance.
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Post by baggins on Dec 17, 2021 12:28:12 GMT
Insightful documentary on the current plight of Afghanistan. Personally think that despite the Taliban’s ultra conservative rule and bloody rise to power once again, it’s wrong to withhold humanitarian aid that will be the difference between children starving or not this winter. I mean even North Korea gets humanitarian assistance. Whether or not the North Korean Citizens actually get to see any of it is another matter. |
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