Israel

Ok.
So what is an acceptable level of civilian casualties when undertaking a carpet bombing campaign

Much as I admire your comments Les,I have to say that arguments over Dresden etc are not relevant,you cannot look at WW2 through the prism of 21st Century morality and ethics.
It was total all out war and being relived by a generation that had seen the "war to end wars" end only 20 years earlier, Germany if they could would have eliminated this Country, ethnically cleansed Europe as they were already doing and established a fascist European state,they had to be not only defeated but in a way unlike WW1 that would deter future aggression,I would conclude that the latter has been achieved.
Most families in this country had lost members in both World Wars,the appetite to finish the job completely in 1945 with as few British casualties as possible was palpable,my Dad was a 19 yr old Omaha beach veteran the room for who was killed on what side was not a calculation he made.

Not sure trying to widen it to compare WWII with events in Israel and Gaza is helpful and there are important differences in the circumstances.

Who is denying the Palestinians' rights on here? There certainly seems denial of the Israeli side from some quarters. Yatton is correct, we need to know more before we jump to conclusions.

If Israel go in en masses then lots will die on both sides. Fighting in urban areas is manpower intensive and very costly.

For the sake of everyone, let's hope cooler heads prevail.

Maybe if Hamas give up all the hostages then it would temper things a bit.

General comment on this situation.

Heart will always be with Isreal. The Jewish contribution to European and world history is immense. They are over represented in almost every field which moves the human race forward. Isreal has one of the most tolerant and open societies in the Middle East. Their youth love their clubs and dance music, just like Europeans. I feel much more cultural familiarity with Isreal than the Islamic Arab world.

However, I have sympathy for the Palestinians as this region has been a historic tug of war between competing parties and they have found themselves on the wrong end.

Israel has a tiny strip of land, surrounded by vast empires. Every time their neighbours have felt strong enough, they’ve tried to genocide them. Isreal have offered a two state solution, and it’s not wanted. The demand is: Leave this land permanently.

You can’t negotiate from this position, so it will always be war.

This ends either by the collapse of Isreal and it’s dismantling by its neighbours, or by Isreal taking more land and enforcing its rule more harshly, or the third option, is that Hamas accepts a two state solution.

The majority of Palestinians want a full reclamation and the end of Isreal.

My feeling is that Palestine should accept Isreal’s right to exist alongside them. That’s what this boils down to.

A bit late to this thread, quite an interesting read.

It is quite fascinating reading some of these veiws. Especially yours Oldie.

You seem to be championing the Moors. Who invaded, pillaged and enslaved millions, with such 'rich culture'

I bet you dont say the same about the Atlantic Slave Trade do you?

Adolf Hitler improved Germany's economy and infrastructure, built the Worlds first Motorway network, should we champion him?

What's the difference Oldie?

I do find it interesting how, the so called Anti-Fascists seem to all side with Palestine, who are backed up by vile fascists like Hamas who along with the other Islamic/Arab nations surrounding Israel want the Jews completely wiped out. They're the most fascist countries who are followers of the most fascist ideology, yet the so called Anti Fascists are on their side. It's completely warped.

They have the same ideology as Nazi Germany.

I know the context you were replying with.

My point was, I don't think you'd use the same rhetoric when mentioning the Slave Trade or Nazi Germany would you?

Or closer to home, Edward Colstons Philanthropy built much of our City, would you talk about him in as glowing terms as you did The Moors?

I refuse to pick sides, I am not pro Israel and I am not anti Palestine, it's far to complex to even try and do that.

As ever I will call out complete idiocy from the clowns who claim to be anti fascist, yet support the fascists.

Stuff like this is a perfect example.

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Israel is by far and away the most free and tolerant nation in the Middle East, Tel Aviv is one of the most gay friendly Cities in the World, you can be as queer as you want in Israel.

Cross over the border and be gay in the West Bank or Gaza, let's see how you get on! 

Yet they proudly wave flags like this around.

Absolute 🤡 world!