|
|
Israel
Oct 21, 2023 8:15:22 GMT
via mobile
Post by oldie on Oct 21, 2023 8:15:22 GMT
Ok let me spell it out for you. The Moors invaded Spain and brought with them a culture of education etc that I already described. I am not condoning invasion but what they did and what they brought with them is a matter of historical fact. On the other hand, We, the British and others, went to Africa, kidnapped and enslaved local populations and transported them to another continent against their will. Could you describe to me what culture and traditions those enslaved people's were allowed to bring with them? What happened in the 20th century in terms of music, art and literature from the descendants of those slaves had little direct correlation with the original culture of the people's removed from the African continent. More to do with survival, the imposition of Christianity and the apartheid they suffered post abolition. This culture was born out of an adjustment to the conditions they found themselves in. Do you really think that given the choice that those original enslaved people's would have traded their freedom for that outcome? Conversely what the Moors brought was adopted and integrated into European culture, and not reversed after they were kicked out. There is no benefit of slavery for the original enslaved people's. In fact it is arguable that it is only since the 1980s that their descendants have begun to be treated as equals by the descendants of the white colonists. On a personal note, as an older white man I have enjoyed and indeed collect Jazz recordings since as long as I can remember. Listening to the stories of those artists, certainly those recorded after WW2, I can confidently say that I have never heard one of them claim their art is a cultural benefit of slavery. Yes the Moors colonised Spain, raped and pillaged it, and enslaved millions of Europeans over 1300 years. Over 3 times longer than the Atlantic Slave Trade lasted. So let me get this straight, because in your opinion The Moors brought a culture of education, the enslavement and murder of millions of Europeans and the rape and pillaging of the iberian culture is fair game? I failing to understand you Oldie, it's no different to the British Empire. Are you being serious when you ask what cultures and traditions slaves brought with them? How about languages for starters, Especially in the southern states, Creole languages are spoken across Louisiana, Florida, Georgia and The Carolinas, then there's the food, Religions and Beliefs. So you don't think the African Slaves brought any of their culture to the North America, Central America, Carribean or South America? If you don't think African culture has any correlation with the Music, Dance and Art or popular cultures from The Americas and Caribbean then I don't think I can take you seriously anymore. Nice to know an 'older White Man' giving me a lecture on slavery and Black/African culture. As for your opinion on Jazz, maybe read these quotes from Jazz Musicians, you may or may not have heard of..... “The transportation of slaves to the New World was a link in the chain between two Continents: a musical chain we shall test link by link in order to trace the many stresses and strains which have affected it; a full grasp of the implications of slavery is not only necessary, but vital, to a clear understanding of jazz.” —Rex Harris, Jazz (Penguin, 1952) “Jazz was not an accident. It appeared when it did because of what had gone before, and it spread through the culture with amazing spread because the American people were prepared for it – in fact, were actively searching for it, or something like it.” —James Lincoln Collier, Jazz, the American Theme Song (OUP, 1993) Of course, it wasn't a cultural benefit of slavery, at all. This "Jazz was not an accident. It appeared when it did because of what had gone before, and it spread through the culture with amazing spread because the American people were prepared for it – in fact, were actively searching for it, or something like it.” —James Lincoln Collier, Jazz, the American Theme Song (OUP, 1993)" Yes I had read that before. I guess I interpreted that "what had gone before" as starting with the lives of slaves once IN the American continent and the apartheid conditions they were forced to live under post abolition. For example Would Gospel have occured without enforced transition to Christianity? (Was their a culture of Christianity in the West African territories from which these people were taken?) Would, what we define as soul, developed without Gospel? Would the single acoustic guitar music we know as Blues, developed without the imposition of enslaved cotton field workers, later to be segregated agricultural communities? Was there any such equivalence in West Africa (I know there was music obviously, The Moors brought it with them😜) Would the transition to electrified playback occured in that community without the growth of the car industry and the need for labour which led to large migration northwards and the birth of Chicago blues? The point I am making is not to deny any cultural heritage of slaves, but to say that in reality this heritage was crushed. What happened afterwards, as quoted above, was a result of the life that developed AFTER they found themselves there. One last point, then I will leave you in peace, on the Moors. Like the captured and enslaved people they were African. I was searching for any additional information, but kept ending up with what I already knew (confirmation bias perhaps) when I found this. blackhistorystudies.com/resources/resources/15-facts-on-the-moors-in-spain/How so bloody apt. I loved the strap line "Educating the Community to Educate Themselves" A line so delicious in its irony I just had to repeat it. Don't shout at me, my tongue is firmly in my cheek. |
|
|
|
Israel
Oct 21, 2023 8:23:29 GMT
Post by baggins on Oct 21, 2023 8:23:29 GMT
Stupid question I know, but when Israeli forces go into Gaza, how are they going to spot Hamas terrorists? Do they have HAMAS written on their shirts? Maybe Rocket Launchers? Machine Guns? What happens if they don't show them and walk among the Civilians? |
|
|
|
Israel
Oct 21, 2023 8:39:19 GMT
Post by gasandelectricity on Oct 21, 2023 8:39:19 GMT
In the words of my mother when two sides of the coin were playing up, someone needs to go in there and “bang all their heads together”.
(Don’t worry, I understand it’s far more complicated than that, but wouldn’t it be nice)
|
|
|
|
Israel
Oct 21, 2023 9:10:03 GMT
via mobile
Post by stuart1974 on Oct 21, 2023 9:10:03 GMT
Stupid question I know, but when Israeli forces go into Gaza, how are they going to spot Hamas terrorists? Do they have HAMAS written on their shirts? They wont,just indiscriminately shoot on sight. I'd give the IDF a bit more credit than that but it would be nasty and no-one will be safe. |
|
|
|
Israel
Oct 21, 2023 9:20:25 GMT
via mobile
pirate likes this
Post by trevorgas on Oct 21, 2023 9:20:25 GMT
They wont,just indiscriminately shoot on sight. I'd give the IDF a bit more credit than that but it would be nasty and no-one will be safe. I don't ,have you read the BBC article on the news site today,Settlers attacking West Bank Palestinians whilst soldiers watch, disgusting. |
|
|
|
Israel
Oct 21, 2023 9:22:19 GMT
via mobile
pirate likes this
Post by trevorgas on Oct 21, 2023 9:22:19 GMT
They wont,just indiscriminately shoot on sight. I'd give the IDF a bit more credit than that but it would be nasty and no-one will be safe. I think Israel's plan is to make Gaza totally uninhabitable and displace/disperse the Palestinians,then watch as in a few years it's occupied by Settlers. |
|
|
|
Israel
Oct 21, 2023 10:12:43 GMT
via mobile
Post by oldie on Oct 21, 2023 10:12:43 GMT
I'd give the IDF a bit more credit than that but it would be nasty and no-one will be safe. I think Israel's plan is to make Gaza totally uninhabitable and displace/disperse the Palestinians,then watch as in a few years it's occupied by Settlers. That might push other States to become involved. The worse case scenario |
|
|
|
Israel
Oct 21, 2023 10:49:54 GMT
via mobile
Post by trevorgas on Oct 21, 2023 10:49:54 GMT
I think Israel's plan is to make Gaza totally uninhabitable and displace/disperse the Palestinians,then watch as in a few years it's occupied by Settlers. That might push other States to become involved. The worse case scenario Yep, Egypt and Jordan don't want responsibility for the Palestinians as that would absolve the Israelis who have had responsibility/control since the 6 day war. |
|
|
|
Post by oldie on Oct 21, 2023 11:15:40 GMT
That might push other States to become involved. The worse case scenario Yep, Egypt and Jordan don't want responsibility for the Palestinians as that would absolve the Israelis who have had responsibility/control since the 6 day war. Egypt and Jordan are under the influence of the Americans so they will be compliant. There is no such influence over the Iranians and their proxies in Lebanon, Syria and Iraq. In addition the Saudi administration is increasingly non compliant with the USA and the Qataris plough their own furrow, including hosting the HAMAS leadership. This is not 1967...the military and political balance has shifted Bar nuclear. |
|
|
|
Israel
Oct 21, 2023 17:59:37 GMT
via mobile
Post by gashead79 on Oct 21, 2023 17:59:37 GMT
Stupid question I know, but when Israeli forces go into Gaza, how are they going to spot Hamas terrorists? Do they have HAMAS written on their shirts? Since none of the replies have given you anything worthwhile, I'll give you: Intelligence. Aerial assets. Fighting patrols following orders with a defined mission statement. Agents on the ground. The absence of civpop. Resistance. Fortified areas. Comms breaches(loose lips). Defensive manoeuvres. It won't be indiscriminate fire, but that's what certain agencies will feed us. Israeli military will have solid ROE regardless of the disgusting attacks on its people. |
|
|
|
Israel
Oct 21, 2023 18:14:06 GMT
via mobile
Post by stuart1974 on Oct 21, 2023 18:14:06 GMT
Stupid question I know, but when Israeli forces go into Gaza, how are they going to spot Hamas terrorists? Do they have HAMAS written on their shirts? Since none of the replies have given you anything worthwhile, I'll give you: Intelligence. Aerial assets. Fighting patrols following orders with a defined mission statement. Agents on the ground. The absence of civpop. Resistance. Fortified areas. Comms breaches(loose lips). Defensive manoeuvres. It won't be indiscriminate fire, but that's what certain agencies will feed us. Israeli military will have solid ROE regardless of the disgusting attacks on its people. There won't be a total absence of the civil population, though. Some of your other points are valid but once you are on the ground all that goes to pot. It's going to be messy, for everyone. |
|
|
|
Israel
Oct 21, 2023 18:14:59 GMT
via mobile
Post by oldie on Oct 21, 2023 18:14:59 GMT
I lost it at intelligence....,
|
|
|
|
Israel
Oct 21, 2023 18:15:59 GMT
via mobile
Post by oldie on Oct 21, 2023 18:15:59 GMT
Since none of the replies have given you anything worthwhile, I'll give you: Intelligence. Aerial assets. Fighting patrols following orders with a defined mission statement. Agents on the ground. The absence of civpop. Resistance. Fortified areas. Comms breaches(loose lips). Defensive manoeuvres. It won't be indiscriminate fire, but that's what certain agencies will feed us. Israeli military will have solid ROE regardless of the disgusting attacks on its people. There won't be a total absence of the civil population, though. Some of your other points are valid but once you are on the ground all that goes to pot. It's going to be messy, for everyone. Messy. You mean innocent people being killed? |
|
|
|
Israel
Oct 21, 2023 18:16:33 GMT
via mobile
Post by gashead79 on Oct 21, 2023 18:16:33 GMT
Since none of the replies have given you anything worthwhile, I'll give you: Intelligence. Aerial assets. Fighting patrols following orders with a defined mission statement. Agents on the ground. The absence of civpop. Resistance. Fortified areas. Comms breaches(loose lips). Defensive manoeuvres. It won't be indiscriminate fire, but that's what certain agencies will feed us. Israeli military will have solid ROE regardless of the disgusting attacks on its people. There won't be a total absence of the civil population, though. Some of your other points are valid but once you are on the ground all that goes to pot. It's going to be messy, for everyone. Oh. OK, you must know more than me. |
|
|
|
Post by gashead79 on Oct 21, 2023 18:26:00 GMT
I lost it at intelligence...., From a sage. "When you have something useful to say then come back" |
|
|
|
Israel
Oct 21, 2023 18:27:07 GMT
via mobile
oldie likes this
Post by stuart1974 on Oct 21, 2023 18:27:07 GMT
There won't be a total absence of the civil population, though. Some of your other points are valid but once you are on the ground all that goes to pot. It's going to be messy, for everyone. Oh. OK, you must know more than me. I don't know your background. |
|
|
|
Israel
Oct 21, 2023 18:29:12 GMT
via mobile
Post by stuart1974 on Oct 21, 2023 18:29:12 GMT
There won't be a total absence of the civil population, though. Some of your other points are valid but once you are on the ground all that goes to pot. It's going to be messy, for everyone. Messy. You mean innocent people being killed? Death and destruction all round. |
|
|
|
Israel
Oct 21, 2023 18:42:28 GMT
via mobile
Post by oldie on Oct 21, 2023 18:42:28 GMT
Messy. You mean innocent people being killed? Death and destruction all round. That's what I think. Still time, hopefully cool heads will prevail. |
|
|
|
Post by yattongas on Oct 21, 2023 21:12:47 GMT
The right wing hawks are here are begging for a bit of bloodshed 🙄
|
|
|
|
Israel
Oct 21, 2023 21:36:01 GMT
via mobile
Post by gashead79 on Oct 21, 2023 21:36:01 GMT
The right wing hawks are here are begging for a bit of bloodshed 🙄 Quite a serious issue here tbf. Obviously we are far removed, but imagine your kids at a disco getting raided. They or their friends kidnapped, raped, dismembered, beheaded. A bit of bloodshed is inevitable and justification from ^left wing hawks^ for historical suffering is the debate. Your take is....? |
|
