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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2016 18:34:59 GMT
The question that nobody has addressed is, "can the NHS survive with the current open door immigration policy?"......ie. can the NHS survive in its current form in the EU?
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Post by stuart1974 on May 11, 2016 19:17:08 GMT
The question that nobody has addressed is, "can the NHS survive with the current open door immigration policy?"......ie. can the NHS survive in its current form in the EU? In purely personal terms, yes, definitely. Over the last 10 years I have taken my son to see a doctor or specialist on average once a month, including the best part of a year as an inpatient (collectively over the ten years, not in one go). During that time I have seen about 200+ members of the NHS. Of that, I would say 85% were white British and most of the others were from the sub continent. I can recall maybe fewer than 10 from the EU, and these were mainly training placements as registrars to consultants. Others may have a different experience, but for me the EU has little impact and certainly not a negative one. Whether we are a richer nation in or out and therefore spend what is needed is a different question. |
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Post by stuart1974 on May 11, 2016 20:11:53 GMT
Forgot to add, similar percentages for patients too, except for a higher number of Somali decent rather than Asian.
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Post by inee on May 12, 2016 12:59:55 GMT
The question that nobody has addressed is, "can the NHS survive with the current open door immigration policy?"......ie. can the NHS survive in its current form in the EU? Strangely before i read this i found a thing online saying that the eu wants to do away with our nhs (didnt save the link) ,if its true then we must exit to save the nhs. If i was cameron, when -obama gave his threatening speech i would have replied quite simply, Thats fine it's your prerogative, however all american companies in the uk will be subject to uk laws and taxation until we negotiate a new trade deal , and by the way if we do leave, don't forget to renegotiate you forces bases in this country, and we will also put an embargo on all your imports, so lets see who would be worse off if the likes of harley davidson, gm ,ford fanny mae and others cannot trade with the uk  Why haven't our so called leaders have the balls or guts to say something similar Oh and if i was one of those kids he spoke too at school when he mentioned history, i would simply say how can you talk to us about history when my football club is approx a quater of the age of your country |
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Post by baggins on May 12, 2016 13:10:07 GMT
The question that nobody has addressed is, "can the NHS survive with the current open door immigration policy?"......ie. can the NHS survive in its current form in the EU? Strangely before i read this i found a thing online saying that the eu wants to do away with our nhs (didnt save the link) ,if its true then we must exit to save the nhs. If i was cameron, when -obama gave his threatening speech i would have replied quite simply, Thats fine it's your prerogative, however all american companies in the uk will be subject to uk laws and taxation until we negotiate a new trade deal , and by the way if we do leave, don't forget to renegotiate you forces bases in this country, and we will also put an embargo on all your imports, so lets see who would be worse off if the likes of harley davidson, gm ,ford fanny mae and others cannot trade with the uk Why haven't our so called leaders have the balls or guts to say something similar Oh and if i was one of those kids he spoke too at school when he mentioned history, i would simply say how can you talk to us about history when my football club is approx a quater of the age of your country Well, we sort of need the US bases over here as we have diddly sh** as far as deterents are concerned. Plus the revenue that brings in from allowing them to base here is hefty. They are our allies after all. |
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2016 13:26:38 GMT
The whole 'trade deal' argument is totaly false. The UK has never ever had a 'trade deal' with the US, yet we seem to trade with them ok over the years.
If the EU impose a tariff on UK goods being sold within the EU, then we do the same to theirs. The UK imports far more from the EU than it exports, so if the EU impose a 10% tax, we should just impose an 11% tax on their goods. If they then drop to 9%, we drop to 10%. Give it a week, and there will be no tariffs. Pretty simple really.
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Post by stuart1974 on May 12, 2016 22:33:31 GMT
The UK exports more to the EU than it exports in pure cash terms, but the percentages is 45% of our exports while we represent 10% of the remaining EU exports. Even with Germany we export 10% while we represent 7% of Germany's exports. It is also 1 nation looking to trade with another 27. If it came to a tariff war as you are suggesting then I suspect we would blink first.
If vote leave want my vote then I will need something more than economics, as I just don't see how we would be better off outside. We would still trade but have no say over the rules. This could be offset by selling more to the rest of the world but (a) this will take time and (b) those nations will know we need to make agreements and play hardball. Who would we increase trade with? The BRICS? Russia is no friend, Brazil is suffering at the moment, China dwarfs us (see the steel situation) and Saudi Arabia is not exactly a stable democracy. India would be good, except that our economy is mainly services and we have already outsourced over 300,000 jobs to India including many 100s in my company. African nations are selling to China as they have the money to buy up their natural resources, South America maybe and Australia/NZ but these don't come close in matching the buying power of the EU.
No, for me to vote leave I will need something that overrides the economy, they need to push harder on the other problems such as the democratic deficit and lack of accountability. Boris made a good speech earlier in the week and almost got me, until I realised who I was listening to.
Inee - the EU doesn't want to abolish the NHS, this is the US/EU trade deal TTIP, which many fear will affect who can provide services. It is likely that an opt out will be added as negotiations are still ongoing. Besides, if we left the EU and made our own arrangements then we would be more than likely to have to agree to something similar. As for the Obama reference, Cameron didn't say anything because he wanted Obama to say this. The out supporters suggested that No 10 wrote it for him as he made reference to 'queue' rather than the usual US 'line'. If you are after a "Love Actually" moment you may have to wait for Boris to meet Trump ;-)
Baggins - I wish security was not brought into this as for me this is a red herring. Our defence rests on NATO and the 5 eyes arrangements.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2016 13:33:40 GMT
"Interest rates could rise or fall if the UK votes to leave the European Union, Mark Carney, the Bank of England Governor has admitted, as he told MPs that uncertainty surrounding a Brexit result would make it difficult to determine how best to respond.
In response to questions from MPs, Mr Carney said that City traders had developed almost a "Pavlovian" response to bad news. They assumed that "any time something bad happens, central banks ease policy", choosing to unleash quantitative easing or slash interest rates.
In the event of a vote to leave the EU, the decision for the Bank of England would not be so clear cut, the Governor stressed.
Because withdrawal from the EU would influence not just economic demand, but also supply, and the strength of the pound, different combinations of these factors might result in a case to cut interest rates, raise them, or keep them the same."
In other words, he hasn't got a friggin' clue !
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Post by inee on May 24, 2016 17:26:29 GMT
Nah in other words he's a dimp lady garden like the rest of em t'udder day it was war if we leave, today it recession, what is it going to be tomorrow, 3 day weeks and random electricity supply, ah i fergot the leccys owned by the frogs so in or out we will be ok |
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Post by stuart1974 on May 24, 2016 21:47:21 GMT
"Interest rates could rise or fall if the UK votes to leave the European Union, Mark Carney, the Bank of England Governor has admitted, as he told MPs that uncertainty surrounding a Brexit result would make it difficult to determine how best to respond. In response to questions from MPs, Mr Carney said that City traders had developed almost a "Pavlovian" response to bad news. They assumed that "any time something bad happens, central banks ease policy", choosing to unleash quantitative easing or slash interest rates. In the event of a vote to leave the EU, the decision for the Bank of England would not be so clear cut, the Governor stressed. Because withdrawal from the EU would influence not just economic demand, but also supply, and the strength of the pound, different combinations of these factors might result in a case to cut interest rates, raise them, or keep them the same."In other words, he hasn't got a friggin' clue ! The problem for the average voter in deciding is no one seems to know. I don't know about anyone else but I am fed up of the claims and counter claims by both sides and am looking forward to this ending. Whatever happens, I expect Cameron to be gone within 6-12 months and attention will turn to who will take over, be it George Osborne, Boris Johnson or a compromise candidate. I see Philip Hammond is keeping a low profile. I'll even go as far as saying neither current Labour or Conservative leader will be there by the time of the 2018 local elections. |
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Post by stuart1974 on May 24, 2016 21:58:30 GMT
Nah in other words he's a dimp Lady garden like the rest of em t'udder day it was war if we leave, today it recession, what is it going to be tomorrow, 3 day weeks and random electricity supply, ah i fergot the leccys owned by the frogs so in or out we will be ok Agree about the electricity, although EDF is having second thoughts about Hinckley Point despite the large inducements, so off to China for more investment we go which will be unaffected by either result. I see that two of the 'big six' are UK owned, two are German, one French, one Spanish. But these are providers who buy on the wholesale market not the actual producers. Most of the sources of electricity come from gas, both North Sea and imported from the Middle East, again probably unaffected by Brexit. It is from 2013 but some of these graphs are interesting. www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-24823641 |
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Post by stuart1974 on May 24, 2016 22:25:19 GMT
The whole 'trade deal' argument is totaly false. The UK has never ever had a 'trade deal' with the US, yet we seem to trade with them ok over the years. If the EU impose a tariff on UK goods being sold within the EU, then we do the same to theirs. The UK imports far more from the EU than it exports, so if the EU impose a 10% tax, we should just impose an 11% tax on their goods. If they then drop to 9%, we drop to 10%. Give it a week, and there will be no tariffs. Pretty simple really. Sorry Nobby, I didn't do you the courtesy of responding to your first point in my previous post, and yes there is no reason why we could not trade without a formal deal. That is except when something goes wrong there is little recourse or arbitration. Take BSE for example. When we realised that feeding animal protein to herbivores had a detrimental affect and eventually cleaned up our act, the export ban to the EU lasted 3 years and we even took France to court and forced them to reopen their markets. Exports to the US only reopened in 2013, some 15 years after they banned imports.
Then look at defence orders. The Bush/Blair years were some of the closest for some time and Airbus won the US Air Force tanker order, AugustaWestland the Presidential Helicopter replacement with its EH101 variant and Rolls Royce were lined up to produce an alternative engine for the F35.
Where are they now? The tanker order was scrapped and Boeing are the only bidder for a revised tender, the helicopter order never happened (Sikorsky eventually won) and Pratt &Whitney supply the only engine available to the F35.
Don't underestimate the power of US business to lobby Capitol Hill. They are still making tanks the army doesn't want and forcing the navy and air force to keep ships and aircraft they wish to retire.
And then there is the Kraft debacle during the takover of Cadbury. You'll remember the promises to keep Keynsham open when they bid and then promptly changed their minds once takeover was completed. The relevant select committee in Parliament wanted to question the CEO who simply refused to attend. if we deal direct with the US after leaving the EU then some form of agreement may be needed for reassurance. |
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2016 6:02:05 GMT
The UK exports more to the EU than it exports in pure cash terms, but the percentages is 45% of our exports while we represent 10% of the remaining EU exports. Even with Germany we export 10% while we represent 7% of Germany's exports. It is also 1 nation looking to trade with another 27. If it came to a tariff war as you are suggesting then I suspect we would blink first. If vote leave want my vote then I will need something more than economics, as I just don't see how we would be better off outside. We would still trade but have no say over the rules. This could be offset by selling more to the rest of the world but (a) this will take time and (b) those nations will know we need to make agreements and play hardball. Who would we increase trade with? The BRICS? Russia is no friend, Brazil is suffering at the moment, China dwarfs us (see the steel situation) and Saudi Arabia is not exactly a stable democracy. India would be good, except that our economy is mainly services and we have already outsourced over 300,000 jobs to India including many 100s in my company. African nations are selling to China as they have the money to buy up their natural resources, South America maybe and Australia/NZ but these don't come close in matching the buying power of the EU. No, for me to vote leave I will need something that overrides the economy, they need to push harder on the other problems such as the democratic deficit and lack of accountability. Boris made a good speech earlier in the week and almost got me, until I realised who I was listening to. Inee - the EU doesn't want to abolish the NHS, this is the US/EU trade deal TTIP, which many fear will affect who can provide services. It is likely that an opt out will be added as negotiations are still ongoing. Besides, if we left the EU and made our own arrangements then we would be more than likely to have to agree to something similar. As for the Obama reference, Cameron didn't say anything because he wanted Obama to say this. The out supporters suggested that No 10 wrote it for him as he made reference to 'queue' rather than the usual US 'line'. If you are after a "Love Actually" moment you may have to wait for Boris to meet Trump ;-) Baggins - I wish security was not brought into this as for me this is a red herring. Our defence rests on NATO and the 5 eyes arrangements. I think you are wrong about the defence issue Stuart. It is well-publicised that the EU intend to create an 'EU Army'. Personally, I do not think it is right that British troops could be committed to a warzone, by people who are totally unaccountable to the British public. The thought that British troops could be commanded by say, a Latvian General, fills me with dread. Just look at the United Nations to see where the decision making process regarding troops is so bad that the UN is in effect a toothless dog. The UN disaster in the Balkans should give everyone an indication of how an EU Army would operate. |
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Post by stuart1974 on May 25, 2016 7:53:40 GMT
Maybe I've not been clear, I mentioned the defence procurement issue to highlight the fact that even when we are close, US business will generally get their way.
As for the EU army, this is something I would want to avoid too, NATO has been and should remain paramount. That said, the nonUS members need to do more, highlighted by Libya which should have been an Anglo-French affair and could only work when the US provided command and some niche capabilities we have given up as cost saving measures.
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2016 8:17:55 GMT
"Maybe I've not been clear, I mentioned the defence procurement issue to highlight the fact that even when we are close, US business will generally get their way."
That has always been the case, and I cannot see it changing with the proposed TTIP because US politicians are well aware that their first priority is to the US public, US jobs, US economy etc etc. Just look at what happened with the steel issue recently.
Anyway, back on track, I'm fed-up with the Remain campaign. All we hear is made-up claims about the possible dreaded results of a Brexit. What I want to hear from the remain camp are the benefits of staying in the EU. After what, 40+ years, I would have thought they'd be able to produce a huge list showing the benefits.
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Post by stuart1974 on May 25, 2016 8:46:11 GMT
To paraphrase Mercutio, "A plague o' both (their) houses! I am sped...."
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Post by Hugo the Elder on May 25, 2016 10:27:43 GMT
Anyway, back on track, I'm fed-up with the Remain campaign. All we hear is made-up claims about the possible dreaded results of a Brexit. What I want to hear from the remain camp are the benefits of staying in the EU. After what, 40+ years, I would have thought they'd be able to produce a huge list showing the benefits. Exactly right. I want proper information and all I get is over exaggerated scare stories. All of which make me not believe. I'm still undecided but the obvious liars and scaremongerers in the remain campaign are making me much more likely to vote to leave. |
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Post by aghast on May 25, 2016 19:22:10 GMT
As opposed to the liars and scaremongerers on the other side who say the whole thing is German conspiracy to win WWII by stealth, the EU is creating a superstate a la Hitler, our bananas will have to be straight, our chocolate cannot be called chocolate, we are forced to allow free entry to evil Eastern European criminals, and we will be forced to have a quota of gypsy MPs,
There has been so much bollox on both sides and neither has much credibility in my view. I try and read the American and Asian newspapers online to see if they have a more impartial view, but I think the truth, as I suspected all along, is that nobody knows if it would be better for us to leave or stay.
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2016 22:22:45 GMT
As opposed to the liars and scaremongerers on the other side who say the whole thing is German conspiracy to win WWII by stealth, the EU is creating a superstate a la Hitler, our bananas will have to be straight, our chocolate cannot be called chocolate, we are forced to allow free entry to evil Eastern European criminals, and we will be forced to have a quota of gypsy MPs, There has been so much bollox on both sides and neither has much credibility in my view. I try and read the American and Asian newspapers online to see if they have a more impartial view, but I think the truth, as I suspected all along, is that nobody knows if it would be better for us to leave or stay. Well, the Euro state is not a myth is it. Only today we learn that they will introduce an EU Tax Number for every person. This will allow them to track everyone regardless of which country they work/live. This is a prelude to tax harmonization, where it will be the EU collecting the tax you pay, the EU deciding how that money will be spent, and those making the decisions within the EU will be unelected and unaccountable. If you don't like what they are doing, you will not be able to vote them out. It is not a German conspiracy, however, the Germans firmly believe they know how to run anything better than you do. |
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Post by aghast on May 26, 2016 14:33:12 GMT
Yes, but I was talking about ludicrous scaremongering. What you've described is a political process which all states will have a say in.
Using the dreaded Hitler term to describe the potential European state conjures up visions of jackboots, tanks and atrocities, which is why Boris used it.
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