|
Post by singupgas on Jul 9, 2018 12:28:19 GMT
They are bankers. As long as the debt is secured then there will be no rush to pay it back, in financial terms they would be better off sitting on the debt and just charging interest. When, how and at what rate or rates, is up to them. The debt is probably over £10m by now, it won't be long until it exceeds the value of the Stadium. The more interest they charge the quicker it will do so. If they can't get the club to make a profit then they'll only have one guaranteed way to get their investment back (should they want to). What is the estimated value of the site? no one is buying the stadium are they, the stadium not really worth a thing to any potential buyers.
|
|
|
Post by countygroundhotel on Jul 9, 2018 12:37:55 GMT
I think people get confused by the whole evolution v revolution thing. Along with getting mixed up with what Investment in the club actually means. Spending money on the infrastructure of the club - Youth development, Development squad, facilities, (bars), commercial etc is investment. If done correctly, this gives payback longer term, e.g more income generated, possibly home grown players, etc etc. It grows the club. Call this 'Evolution' if you like. Giving the club money is not the same thing. It doesn't grow the club (long term). It might give you a good season or two, but it is entirely short term unless the above is done. When people say the owners are not investing in the team, they are basically saying that they want the owners to give the club money. The difference - Evolution/investment makes the club sustainable. Giving the club money does not. The old board were never able to invest, hence why the club stagnated for years, as when we did have a bit of success we could never cash in. When people have a dig at the wage budget, I don't think they quite grasp what really they are arguing for. So what the owners are doing is exactly what they should be. And hopefully, in the background, the stadium is being/will be resolved - and away we go. Why does giving the club money not grow it long term? The 2 parts of that question are not mutually exclusive. Invested correctly then money given to the club can indeed grow the club long term and is certainly what I would like to see. You seem to confuse giving money (ie converting debt to equity) as throwing it away on exhirbitent player contracts which it could be or shouldn't necessarily be. All we know for a fact is that at the last set of accounts Dwane Sports had shown no appetite to convert their debt to equity. And to disagree with the thread title there was a revolution the day they took over, the first time in my life that we had had owners who weren't local connected businessmen. And those new owners, misguidedly, came in offering a revolution in the form of a new stadium at UWE. Which has changed to evolution with no current presented plan for the development of a stadium at the Mem or anywhere else.
|
|
|
Post by cj on Jul 9, 2018 12:38:52 GMT
What a brilliant thread and well constructed, informative and hits the nail right bang on the head. Also, real discussion and debate by those who may disagree with the OP can be made, with the potential to be an on-going thread lasting ages. What annoys me though is that this thread is over an hour old, had over 460 views but only received just 11 comments (mine being the 12th as I type this). This thread, although an hour into its life, deserves more attention for the reasons stated in my first paragraph. Yet threads that are totally made up BS, can get 7 pages in its first hour due to everyone taking the bait! Anyway, rant over. As you all were! Gotta laugh at yer irony there pal, you start very positive sayin great positive thread an immediately turn it into a post about th negative type threads that you complain get more attention ffs! Sorry you took my post that way. My point was that great threads often go unnoticed and passed by while threads based on BS gets all the attention instead. Cant see the irony in that to be honest. I think it is a valid point and is what lets this forum down to be honest. I gave my opinion regarding this thread, praising it, while hoping out loud that this thread doesn't end up dead before it actually gets going, like it normally does. Again, sorry you took my comment the wrong way.
|
|
|
Post by Big Jock on Jul 9, 2018 12:45:06 GMT
Gotta laugh at yer irony there pal, you start very positive sayin great positive thread an immediately turn it into a post about th negative type threads that you complain get more attention ffs! Sorry you took my post that way. My point was that great threads often go unnoticed and passed by while threads based on BS gets all the attention instead. Cant see the irony in that to be honest. I think it is a valid point and is what lets this forum down to be honest. I gave my opinion regarding this thread, praising it, while hoping out loud that this thread doesn't end up dead before it actually gets going, like it normally does. Again, sorry you took my comment the wrong way. Nae apology needed to me pal, i just alwaes look for th funny side if i can. I know what yous meant.
FWIW i sees a bit of both sides, i think th new lot did kinda hint that a few things were gonna happen quite quickly but later retracted an some folk understandably got carried away, so a bit of blame both ways to be fair.
I kinda agree with th evolution line and way things are going anyway, as my ol man use ta say - "Better a box of milk in th refrigerator than a fat cow in th kitchen".
|
|
|
Post by singupgas on Jul 9, 2018 12:49:21 GMT
I think people get confused by the whole evolution v revolution thing. Along with getting mixed up with what Investment in the club actually means. Spending money on the infrastructure of the club - Youth development, Development squad, facilities, (bars), commercial etc is investment. If done correctly, this gives payback longer term, e.g more income generated, possibly home grown players, etc etc. It grows the club. Call this 'Evolution' if you like. Giving the club money is not the same thing. It doesn't grow the club (long term). It might give you a good season or two, but it is entirely short term unless the above is done. When people say the owners are not investing in the team, they are basically saying that they want the owners to give the club money. The difference - Evolution/investment makes the club sustainable. Giving the club money does not. The old board were never able to invest, hence why the club stagnated for years, as when we did have a bit of success we could never cash in. When people have a dig at the wage budget, I don't think they quite grasp what really they are arguing for. So what the owners are doing is exactly what they should be. And hopefully, in the background, the stadium is being/will be resolved - and away we go. Why does giving the club money not grow it long term? The 2 parts of that question are not mutually exclusive. Invested correctly then money given to the club can indeed grow the club long term and is certainly what I would like to see. You seem to confuse giving money (ie converting debt to equity) as throwing it away on exhirbitent player contracts which it could be or shouldn't necessarily be. All we know for a fact is that at the last set of accounts Dwane Sports had shown no appetite to convert their debt to equity. And to disagree with the thread title there was a revolution the day they took over, the first time in my life that we had had owners who weren't local connected businessmen. And those new owners, misguidedly, came in offering a revolution in the form of a new stadium at UWE. Which has changed to evolution with no current presented plan for the development of a stadium at the Mem or anywhere else. Tend to agree.. something along the lines that Rovers need a new stadium was said on the first day, today we are no closer it would seem to getting a new one, if anything we are further away. It does bug me that we have gone from needing a new stadium to making do without any sign of any major investment other than fixing parts of the grounds up. However, it can't be denied other areas have been improved, the personnel brought in make for a much more professional business structure. I think its just a case that some of us are much slower to accept that we will not be getting the new stadium that we desperately need to secure a long term future.
|
|
|
Post by baggins on Jul 9, 2018 12:59:07 GMT
Directors loans paid off, land bought for training facilities, small improvements to the Mem, 5 new players this season, DC still with us, Season Ticket prices held for 5 years (apart from this one), youth squad look really good, what's the problem?
|
|
|
Post by cj on Jul 9, 2018 13:00:22 GMT
Sorry you took my post that way. My point was that great threads often go unnoticed and passed by while threads based on BS gets all the attention instead. Cant see the irony in that to be honest. I think it is a valid point and is what lets this forum down to be honest. I gave my opinion regarding this thread, praising it, while hoping out loud that this thread doesn't end up dead before it actually gets going, like it normally does. Again, sorry you took my comment the wrong way. Nae apology needed to me pal, i just alwaes look for th funny side if i can. I know what yous meant.
FWIW i sees a bit of both sides, i think th new lot did kinda hint that a few things were gonna happen quite quickly but later retracted an some folk understandably got carried away, so a bit of blame both ways to be fair.
I kinda agree with th evolution line and way things are going anyway, as my ol man use ta say - "Better a box of milk in th refrigerator than a fat cow in th kitchen".
Depends if the fat cow can cook
With regards to some getting carried away, I am not sure why really some let themselves be carried away as no one really knows how much the owners are worth. None of the Al Qadi's have ever mentioned how much they have, even when pushed. They refused to answer that question. The press at the beginning kept on saying billions and some said millions. That is what I feel caused some to wrongly get carried away. And because they are excited about thinking we have super rich owners, they get impatient with the stadium and training ground. But for all we know, the owners don't have any available money (so we are frequently told by some who claim to know the owners bank account details) and their wealth is all in investments! So like Wael said at the very beginning, evolution not revolution. It will be a slow process. The sooner everyone accepts that (even if they are not happy about it) then the sooner all the fan base can be on the same page together. The owners havent really been here for that long when considering they said from day 1 that they will be restructuring everything from the bottom up. I am judging Wael based on his words and so far, he is to me doing what he said he would be doing.
|
|
|
Post by Gassy on Jul 9, 2018 13:03:21 GMT
Directors loans paid off, land bought for training facilities, small improvements to the Mem, 5 new players this season, DC still with us, Season Ticket prices held for 5 years (apart from this one), youth squad look really good, what's the problem? We haven't carried momentum from our double promotion to send us into the Prem
|
|
|
Post by Hugo the Elder on Jul 9, 2018 13:06:45 GMT
so do you not agree with our owners investing in youth development teams which is also of huge benefit to the future of our football club to produce local talent and to also serve as another revenue stream? They are doing what they set out to from the beginning , I Agee the stadium saga is irritating and needs to be resolved but surely you can also see the positives that are happening at the moment?
In my eyes a lot of the improvements are low hanging fruit. Of course the development is a good thing as some clubs cant afford/be bothered to run one, but ultimately the owners will be judged on whether they can bring a new stadium or at least a decent training base.
Don't know if you've ever been part of a fixing a failing business but sorting low hanging fruit is almost always the right thing to do if it's quick and cheap to fix and doesn't hamper the main over all solution. Imagine turning up in A&E with a massive leg wound. Do the nurses say, nah let's not bother putting a suture on that because he needs a major operation later in the day? Of course not. They stick a bandage on so things improve or at least don't get worse. We've already been told the tarting up of the Mem ect is as good as free (and the stands will actually make us money) so what's the problem? The other underlying improvements like staff and the Dev squad is absolutely critical to our long term success.
|
|
|
Post by Big Jock on Jul 9, 2018 13:10:09 GMT
Nae apology needed to me pal, i just alwaes look for th funny side if i can. I know what yous meant.
FWIW i sees a bit of both sides, i think th new lot did kinda hint that a few things were gonna happen quite quickly but later retracted an some folk understandably got carried away, so a bit of blame both ways to be fair.
I kinda agree with th evolution line and way things are going anyway, as my ol man use ta say - "Better a box of milk in th refrigerator than a fat cow in th kitchen".
Depends if the fat cow can cook
With regards to some getting carried away, I am not sure why really some let themselves be carried away as no one really knows how much the owners are worth. None of the Al Qadi's have ever mentioned how much they have, even when pushed. They refused to answer that question. The press at the beginning kept on saying billions and some said millions. That is what I feel caused some to wrongly get carried away. And because they are excited about thinking we have super rich owners, they get impatient with the stadium and training ground. But for all we know, the owners don't have any available money (so we are frequently told by some who claim to know the owners bank account details) and their wealth is all in investments! So like Wael said at the very beginning, evolution not revolution. It will be a slow process. The sooner everyone accepts that (even if they are not happy about it) then the sooner all the fan base can be on the same page together. The owners havent really been here for that long when considering they said from day 1 that they will be restructuring everything from the bottom up. I am judging Wael based on his words and so far, he is to me doing what he said he would be doing.
Totally get yer points pal.
My only point to defend some of th ones who i think understandably got carried away was th actual words from th owner when he said 2 years ago:
" The new training ground is "advanced". It is a huge site, and Darrell Clarke is "impressed".
"Chairman & Manager have walked site of club's proposed new training ground, north of the city, would mean Academy 2 status"
"We'll move in March" to new training ground says chairman.
President Waelalqadi says "the new stadium would have a capacity of 21,700" "UWE is the only site we're interested in", "everything is in place, finance was never an issue"
Now as i say i totally get all th positives, but i still feel a bit for those who took those words with excitement. I think looking back even Waq an Hammer know they perhaps said it a little too hastily which IMO (an i aint very intelligent admittedly) is why they have all decided to not say much anymore.
I think theres a little bit of blame for th owners an a few fans who sadly got carried away in equal measures.
|
|
|
Post by baggins on Jul 9, 2018 13:10:50 GMT
Directors loans paid off, land bought for training facilities, small improvements to the Mem, 5 new players this season, DC still with us, Season Ticket prices held for 5 years (apart from this one), youth squad look really good, what's the problem? We haven't carried momentum from our double promotion to send us into the Prem True. Damn this club and it's owners.
|
|
|
Post by cj on Jul 9, 2018 13:16:11 GMT
Why does giving the club money not grow it long term? The 2 parts of that question are not mutually exclusive. Invested correctly then money given to the club can indeed grow the club long term and is certainly what I would like to see. You seem to confuse giving money (ie converting debt to equity) as throwing it away on exhirbitent player contracts which it could be or shouldn't necessarily be. All we know for a fact is that at the last set of accounts Dwane Sports had shown no appetite to convert their debt to equity. And to disagree with the thread title there was a revolution the day they took over, the first time in my life that we had had owners who weren't local connected businessmen. And those new owners, misguidedly, came in offering a revolution in the form of a new stadium at UWE. Which has changed to evolution with no current presented plan for the development of a stadium at the Mem or anywhere else. Tend to agree.. something along the lines that Rovers need a new stadium was said on the first day, today we are no closer it would seem to getting a new one, if anything we are further away. It does bug me that we have gone from needing a new stadium to making do without any sign of any major investment other than fixing parts of the grounds up. However, it can't be denied other areas have been improved, the personnel brought in make for a much more professional business structure. I think its just a case that some of us are much slower to accept that we will not be getting the new stadium that we desperately need to secure a long term future. The type of owners that we have, they are into investments. Thats how they make their money. They came to the club with UWE plans already completed. They obviously were not happy with some of the deal and seen it wasnt in Rovers best interest to continue with those plans. To me, if it doesnt benefit us then they did the right thing to pull out. Lets pretend for a second that Wael didnt pull out. We need a new stadium to secure our long term future as you say. But how would everyone be feeling right now if we had UWE but then were made aware of something about that deal which meant we were never going to benefit from the stadium, so where is our long term security? Of course, I am not in the know so I am only presuming some of the details. But when you got business people who are experts in investments, they wouldnt sign off on a bad investment would they? Also, since they pulled out on the deal, they have confirmed we will be staying at the Mem and will redevelop it. I wouldnt be surprised if they are also working on a potential new site for a stadium and just not let it out in the public domain. This would mean there is no pressure on them either around this because no one is expecting it. And out of the blue we will have a big announcement of a new site and planning as already been seeked via the council etc etc. Investors can be pretty sneaky with things like this (just an opinion). But if this 100% is not on the cards and its a redeveloped Mem only, then I am sure plans for it will be our sooner than later. Just patience is needed really. We have all waited 30 years plus, I am sure a few months more will not be too difficult to wait, if you know what I mean. If it is to be a redeveloped Mem, they need to get the plans right the first time. It wont be an easy job as I am sure they will need to move the pitch angle 90 degrees (again just my opinion). I wonder if the colony is big enough for a new stadium and the Mem be turned into a training facility?
|
|
|
Post by cj on Jul 9, 2018 13:29:12 GMT
Depends if the fat cow can cook
With regards to some getting carried away, I am not sure why really some let themselves be carried away as no one really knows how much the owners are worth. None of the Al Qadi's have ever mentioned how much they have, even when pushed. They refused to answer that question. The press at the beginning kept on saying billions and some said millions. That is what I feel caused some to wrongly get carried away. And because they are excited about thinking we have super rich owners, they get impatient with the stadium and training ground. But for all we know, the owners don't have any available money (so we are frequently told by some who claim to know the owners bank account details) and their wealth is all in investments! So like Wael said at the very beginning, evolution not revolution. It will be a slow process. The sooner everyone accepts that (even if they are not happy about it) then the sooner all the fan base can be on the same page together. The owners havent really been here for that long when considering they said from day 1 that they will be restructuring everything from the bottom up. I am judging Wael based on his words and so far, he is to me doing what he said he would be doing.
Totally get yer points pal.
My only point to defend some of th ones who i think understandably got carried away was th actual words from th owner when he said 2 years ago:
" The new training ground is "advanced". It is a huge site, and Darrell Clarke is "impressed".
"Chairman & Manager have walked site of club's proposed new training ground, north of the city, would mean Academy 2 status"
"We'll move in March" to new training ground says chairman.
President Waelalqadi says "the new stadium would have a capacity of 21,700" "UWE is the only site we're interested in", "everything is in place, finance was never an issue"
Now as i say i totally get all th positives, but i still feel a bit for those who took those words with excitement. I think looking back even Waq an Hammer know they perhaps said it a little too hastily which IMO (an i aint very intelligent admittedly) is why they have all decided to not say much anymore.
I think theres a little bit of blame for th owners an a few fans who sadly got carried away in equal measures.
Yep, I get that. Some lines from the club have left themselves open to criticism for sure. They were obviously excited about the colony and couldnt wait to tell the fans. But to me it looks like there has been issues for why they havent been able to get on with it. They probably were not expecting these issues and learnt a valuable lesson from it and decided not to be so open with information and plans about the colony to avoid potentially further disappointment if further issues arise. Some stuff my a legal issues which the club may not be allowed to comment on. We dont know. And thats another issue as the communication has died down regarding the colony which has upset fans. Lack of info allows some fans who put 2 and 2 together and get 44. Then rumours of being broke appear. That then makes the situation worse and causes a negative atmosphere.
|
|
|
Post by stuart1974 on Jul 9, 2018 13:39:57 GMT
They are bankers. As long as the debt is secured then there will be no rush to pay it back, in financial terms they would be better off sitting on the debt and just charging interest. When, how and at what rate or rates, is up to them. The debt is probably over £10m by now, it won't be long until it exceeds the value of the Stadium. The more interest they charge the quicker it will do so. If they can't get the club to make a profit then they'll only have one guaranteed way to get their investment back (should they want to). I suspect that they have a plan, just not one that is known outside the boardroom. At the moment I am comfortable with the situation especially as they have continued to spend on things other than the day to day necessities.
|
|
|
Post by Wembley_Gas on Jul 9, 2018 13:58:36 GMT
Like Darlington? Maybe they should have been renamed Darlington Successful Owners FC when they went bust then?
Do you have many other examples similar to this?
Well you could ask Coventry fans about their owners who were so hell bent on a new stadium they entered into an unworkable partnership (although that's a bit too close to the UWE scenario!)...so let's use the example of the owners funding the team and the stadium....until they stopped...let's ask the fans of Rushden and irthlingborough Diamonds about the success of their owners in providing a brand spanking new stadium for their merged clubs to play in..oh you can't!
|
|
|
Post by lastminutewinner on Jul 9, 2018 14:17:30 GMT
Do you have many other examples similar to this?
Well you could ask Coventry fans about their owners who were so hell bent on a new stadium they entered into an unworkable partnership (although that's a bit too close to the UWE scenario!)...so let's use the example of the owners funding the team and the stadium....until they stopped...let's ask the fans of Rushden and irthlingborough Diamonds about the success of their owners in providing a brand spanking new stadium for their merged clubs to play in..oh you can't!
So without a new stadium how do you propose we stop losing millions every year?
Produce youth players that get snapped up by top clubs for a token tribunal fee?
Sell best players for way below their market value because we don't offer long contracts?
Look at the teds using their facilities as a fans-zone to watch the England games generating large income, what did we have?
|
|
|
Post by warehamgas on Jul 9, 2018 14:18:14 GMT
I wonder if Bournemouth fans are wishing they were still evolving in L1/L2? I also wonder how long the current owners will continue to cover the clubs annual debt with no real means of getting any of it back (ie new stadium) Actually in many ways Bournemouth are a very good example of evolution. There were times even last season, their third in the PL, when 6/7 players playing were with them in League 1 in 12/13 when they got promoted. There was no revolution at Bournemouth over the years. But I know what you mean lastminute, they certainly didn’t hang around in the Championship, only two seasons. When they were in the Championship the ownership changed from Eddie Mitchell, local businessman to Max Denim, Russian rich man. Mitchell said he had taken them as far as he could afford. Bournemouth is the example of what you can achieve with some money but not loads of it and a principled manager. It’s a lot more about Eddie H than the money. UTG! edit: reading what lastminute said in a later thread he is right. Rovers do need a stadium to develop further income. Using Bournemouth as a comparison is probably not the best example. Bournemouth could not have continued in the Championship with only a stadium of 11,400. Denim picked up their losses in first year. Bournemouth just hit the jackpot in getting to the PL where it’s all about TV income. They struck lucky and did not have to develop income streams, although they do now. Other clubs will be a nearer comparison for Rovers.
|
|
|
Post by lastminutewinner on Jul 9, 2018 14:27:18 GMT
I wonder if Bournemouth fans are wishing they were still evolving in L1/L2? I also wonder how long the current owners will continue to cover the clubs annual debt with no real means of getting any of it back (ie new stadium) Actually in many ways Bournemouth are a very good example of evolution. There were times even last season, their third in the PL, when 6/7 players playing were with them in League 1 in 12/13 when they got promoted. There was no revolution at Bournemouth over the years. But I know what you mean lastminute, they certainly didn’t hang around in the Championship, only two seasons. When they were in the Championship the ownership changed from Eddie Mitchell, local businessman to Max Denim, Russian rich man. Mitchell said he had taken them as far as he could afford. Bournemouth is the example of what you can achieve with some money but not loads of it and a principled manager. It’s a lot more about Eddie H than the money. UTG! edit: reading what lastminute said in a later thread he is right. Rovers do need a stadium to develop further income. Using Bournemouth as a comparison is probably not the best example. Bournemouth could not have continued in the Championship with only a stadium of 11,400. Denim picked up their losses in first year. Bournemouth just hit the jackpot in getting to the PL where it’s all about TV income. They struck lucky and did not have to develop income streams, although they do now. Other clubs will be a nearer comparison for Rovers.
As someone in that local area how did Bournemouth go from having collections to save their existence, to the Championship?
|
|
|
Post by warehamgas on Jul 9, 2018 14:34:42 GMT
I know it’s incredible isn’t it? I remember so well the buckets at the ground to collect coins and this week they paid £4.75m to the PL because they broke the financial fair play rules. And they did it without blinking!! Absolutely amazing. I’ve sat in the same seat for 15/16 seasons with son and I can even remember celebrating Curetons goal when we won here so most know who I support and the p*** taking over the past has been merciless. Never mind as I tell them our turn will come! To answer your question I reckon it’s fairly simple, Eddie Howe. He has shown what can be done with half decent players, a positive approach and excellent man management skills. Problem is people like EH don’t come along too often. UTG!
|
|
pirate
Forum Legend
Posts: 18,656
|
Post by pirate on Jul 9, 2018 14:43:26 GMT
I wonder if Bournemouth fans are wishing they were still evolving in L1/L2? I also wonder how long the current owners will continue to cover the clubs annual debt with no real means of getting any of it back (ie new stadium) Actually in many ways Bournemouth are a very good example of evolution. There were times even last season, their third in the PL, when 6/7 players playing were with them in League 1 in 12/13 when they got promoted. There was no revolution at Bournemouth over the years. But I know what you mean lastminute, they certainly didn’t hang around in the Championship, only two seasons. When they were in the Championship the ownership changed from Eddie Mitchell, local businessman to Max Denim, Russian rich man. Mitchell said he had taken them as far as he could afford. Bournemouth is the example of what you can achieve with some money but not loads of it and a principled manager. It’s a lot more about Eddie H than the money. UTG! edit: reading what lastminute said in a later thread he is right. Rovers do need a stadium to develop further income. Using Bournemouth as a comparison is probably not the best example. Bournemouth could not have continued in the Championship with only a stadium of 11,400. Denim picked up their losses in first year. Bournemouth just hit the jackpot in getting to the PL where it’s all about TV income. They struck lucky and did not have to develop income streams, although they do now. Other clubs will be a nearer comparison for Rovers. Maxim Demin basically bankrolled the club since 2011 when he became 50 per cent stakeholder. Their transfer record was smashed in the first January window – spending £800,000 on Matt Tubbs. When the club were in League One they were the division’s biggest spenders as they splashed out over a million more than any other club on transfers. In the Championship they signed striker Tokelo Rantie for about £2.5 million before the 2013/14 season and then Callum Wilson for around £3m the following summer. Eddie Howe said: "He has invested in the facilities not just the playing squad but he has put his own money in to take his club into a different era."
|
|