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Post by Officer Barbrady on Sept 21, 2018 13:42:37 GMT
Would people think it's ok for their daughter, sister, wife, mother or granny to be abused like this? Would you think ok for your son, brother, husband, father or grandad to be abused? what point are you trying to make?
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Post by gaelgas on Sept 21, 2018 13:45:06 GMT
I'm sorry to hear that but I would hope that you learned to treat everyone with respect rather than singling out a particular gender. Too many issues these days are boiled down to the colour of skin and/or gender and/or sexual orientation when hate and disrespect has no colour, gender or sexual identity. I believe I do treat everyone fairly but it's very difficult to shake the ingrained need to protect women when throughout your formative years you were utterly powerless to do so. All that aside, I am really sad at the number of people who seem ok with this. Isn't that patristic and patronising? Are you implying women can't stick up for themselves? I was brought up to believe feminism is about empowering women to do things for themselves, not about getting butt hurt because someone says something mean to a woman
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Post by gaelgas on Sept 21, 2018 13:45:57 GMT
Would you think ok for your son, brother, husband, father or grandad to be abused? what point are you trying to make? Sorry, I thought that was axiomatic
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2018 13:49:15 GMT
Would people think it's ok for their daughter, sister, wife, mother or granny to be abused like this? Would you think ok for your son, brother, husband, father or grandad to be abused? No - would you?
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Post by Officer Barbrady on Sept 21, 2018 13:49:54 GMT
what point are you trying to make? Sorry, I thought that was axiomatic nice word had to Google it but I still don't understand what point you're trying to make? Youre picking on Tilly for mentioning female groups and not males so whats your actual point or are you just demonstrating how principled you are?
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Post by GasLass on Sept 21, 2018 13:51:18 GMT
I believe I do treat everyone fairly but it's very difficult to shake the ingrained need to protect women when throughout your formative years you were utterly powerless to do so. All that aside, I am really sad at the number of people who seem ok with this. Isn't that patristic and patronising? Are you implying women can't stick up for themselves? I was brought up to believe feminism is about empowering women to do things for themselves, not about getting butt hurt because someone says something mean to a woman Just saying this from the point of view of a woman and not on behalf of all woman I'm more than capable of standing up for myself, I'd be next to powerless in a fight but I could easily stand up for myself And as great as feminism is, when being a female fan in what's said to be a stereo-typically male dominated sport (not counting woman's football), I'd have no problem with a male being protective over me I don't think a male generally is protective over a woman to be demeaning or patronising, it's an innate reaction I have mixed opinions on the whole chant fiasco, I probably wouldn't enjoy being chanted at but I'd probably just shake it off and put it down to football banter Dunno its a bit of a strange one, people have thicker skins than others
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Post by gaelgas on Sept 21, 2018 14:00:31 GMT
Sorry, I thought that was axiomatic nice word had to Google it but I still don't understand what point you're trying to make? Youre picking on Tilly for mentioning female groups and not males so whats your actual point or are you just demonstrating how principled you are? We I suppose none of us can help our education can we. The point I was making was that harassment, bullying, whatever you think this incident was, is wrong irrespective of the sex of the person on the receiving end, I wouldn't want my daughter or son, sister or brother, mother or father etc abused, so why did Tilly only mention female family members. And seriously, just because I critise a post made by a woman, why do you assume I'm picking on her? Have we got to the stage where a man cannot comment on something done or written by a woman without the overly woke accusing us of sexism? The sex of the poster is irrelevant, if you'd have posted the same thing I'd have made the same comment.
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Post by gaelgas on Sept 21, 2018 14:02:50 GMT
Isn't that patristic and patronising? Are you implying women can't stick up for themselves? I was brought up to believe feminism is about empowering women to do things for themselves, not about getting butt hurt because someone says something mean to a woman Just saying this from the point of view of a woman and not on behalf of all woman I'm more than capable of standing up for myself, I'd be next to powerless in a fight but I could easily stand up for myself And as great as feminism is, when being a female fan in what's said to be a stereo-typically male dominated sport (not counting woman's football), I'd have no problem with a male being protective over me I don't think a male generally is protective over a woman to be demeaning or patronising, it's an innate reaction I have mixed opinions on the whole chant fiasco, I probably wouldn't enjoy being chanted at but I'd probably just shake it off and put it down to football banter Dunno its a bit of a strange one, people have thicker skins than others I'm sure you are not unique in that feeling, my mother on the other hand, would have told me or my dad in no uncertain terms that she could fight her own battles.
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Post by axegas on Sept 21, 2018 14:05:49 GMT
nice word had to Google it but I still don't understand what point you're trying to make? Youre picking on Tilly for mentioning female groups and not males so whats your actual point or are you just demonstrating how principled you are? We I suppose none of us can help our education can we. The point I was making was that harassment, bullying, whatever you think this incident was, is wrong irrespective of the sex of the person on the receiving end, I wouldn't want my daughter or son, sister or brother, mother or father etc abused, so why did Tilly only mention female family members. And seriously, just because I critise a post made by a woman, why do you assume I'm picking on her? Have we got to the stage where a man cannot comment on something done or written by a woman without the overly woke accusing us of sexism? The sex of the poster is irrelevant, if you'd have posted the same thing I'd have made the same comment. That was because the thread is about a female fan being abused by a male section of Luton's support. People were trying to make excuses for it and Tilly was rightfully pointed out that they would have taken a different view had it been their daughter, sister or mother.
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Post by GasLass on Sept 21, 2018 14:06:22 GMT
Just saying this from the point of view of a woman and not on behalf of all woman I'm more than capable of standing up for myself, I'd be next to powerless in a fight but I could easily stand up for myself And as great as feminism is, when being a female fan in what's said to be a stereo-typically male dominated sport (not counting woman's football), I'd have no problem with a male being protective over me I don't think a male generally is protective over a woman to be demeaning or patronising, it's an innate reaction I have mixed opinions on the whole chant fiasco, I probably wouldn't enjoy being chanted at but I'd probably just shake it off and put it down to football banter Dunno its a bit of a strange one, people have thicker skins than others I'm sure you are not unique in that feeling, my mother on the other hand, would have told me or my dad in no uncertain terms that she could fight her own battles. That's very admirable and I bet your mother is a badass But reading this thread it looks like your replies to people have been purely disregarding opinion and basing it all on your own experience I know if it were me in the situation and I did feel threatened (which i probably wouldn't if it was just chanting) I'd appreciate someone standing up for me
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Sept 21, 2018 14:11:35 GMT
I believe I do treat everyone fairly but it's very difficult to shake the ingrained need to protect women when throughout your formative years you were utterly powerless to do so. All that aside, I am really sad at the number of people who seem ok with this. Isn't that patristic and patronising? Are you implying women can't stick up for themselves? I was brought up to believe feminism is about empowering women to do things for themselves, not about getting butt hurt because someone says something mean to a woman Have you actually spoken to any real women about feminism?
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Post by Officer Barbrady on Sept 21, 2018 15:04:11 GMT
nice word had to Google it but I still don't understand what point you're trying to make? Youre picking on Tilly for mentioning female groups and not males so whats your actual point or are you just demonstrating how principled you are? We I suppose none of us can help our education can we. The point I was making was that harassment, bullying, whatever you think this incident was, is wrong irrespective of the sex of the person on the receiving end, I wouldn't want my daughter or son, sister or brother, mother or father etc abused, so why did Tilly only mention female family members. And seriously, just because I critise a post made by a woman, why do you assume I'm picking on her? Have we got to the stage where a man cannot comment on something done or written by a woman without the overly woke accusing us of sexism? The sex of the poster is irrelevant, if you'd have posted the same thing I'd have made the same comment. Well, I went to University (twice) but I'll admit I didnt get a phd in self-righteousness as you clearly did. I think what you were doing was pointing out the inane to make a point for the sake of argument. Tilly is a reasonable person and of course she will disagree with bullying regardless of gender. You knew that but saw the opportunity to make a point for the sake of it to establish your righteousness and I thought that was a bit of a weasley thing to do so I challenged it. I don't think anyone would disagree with your opinion.
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Post by gaelgas on Sept 21, 2018 15:10:13 GMT
We I suppose none of us can help our education can we. The point I was making was that harassment, bullying, whatever you think this incident was, is wrong irrespective of the sex of the person on the receiving end, I wouldn't want my daughter or son, sister or brother, mother or father etc abused, so why did Tilly only mention female family members. And seriously, just because I critise a post made by a woman, why do you assume I'm picking on her? Have we got to the stage where a man cannot comment on something done or written by a woman without the overly woke accusing us of sexism? The sex of the poster is irrelevant, if you'd have posted the same thing I'd have made the same comment. Well, I went to University (twice) but I'll admit I didnt get a phd in self-righteousness as you clearly did. I think what you were doing was pointing out the inane to make a point for the sake of argument. Tilly is a reasonable person and of course she will disagree with bullying regardless of gender. You knew that but saw the opportunity to make a point for the sake of it to establish your righteousness and I thought that was a bit of a weasley thing to do so I challenged it. I don't think anyone would disagree with your opinion. You're sounding pretty self righteous yourself to be honest, how do you know what I did or did not know, or my motives for making the point I did? Just because you would have done that doesn't mean the rest of us would.
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Post by Officer Barbrady on Sept 21, 2018 15:12:19 GMT
Well, I went to University (twice) but I'll admit I didnt get a phd in self-righteousness as you clearly did. I think what you were doing was pointing out the inane to make a point for the sake of argument. Tilly is a reasonable person and of course she will disagree with bullying regardless of gender. You knew that but saw the opportunity to make a point for the sake of it to establish your righteousness and I thought that was a bit of a weasley thing to do so I challenged it. I don't think anyone would disagree with your opinion. You're sounding pretty self righteous yourself to be honest, how do you know what I did or did not know, or my motives for making the point I did? Just because you would have done that doesn't mean the rest of us would. I know because you then did it again to me in your previous response. I apologise that I am not a sexist, as you clearly wish me to be.
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Post by gaelgas on Sept 21, 2018 15:19:41 GMT
Isn't that patristic and patronising? Are you implying women can't stick up for themselves? I was brought up to believe feminism is about empowering women to do things for themselves, not about getting butt hurt because someone says something mean to a woman Have you actually spoken to any real women about feminism? My great-grandmother was a suffragette and both my grandmother and mother were strong campaigners for equality and the empowerment of women, so yes I have spoken to real women, have you?, They are where I got my views on feminism and if you know anything about the Suffragette movement, you will know that empowerment of women was exactly what they were fighting for. Whilst they received, and welcomed the support of men, and indeed relied on it ultimately to get the law on universal suffrage changed, they did not expect men to fight their battles for them, not did they feel they needed men to protect them. It was women that organised the suffrage movement, it was women who chained themselves to railings, who threw themselves in front of the King's race horse, who went on hunger strike and women who were force fed, and they would have had it no other way! So yes, I have spoken to real women about real feminism, I have grown up with it.
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Post by gaelgas on Sept 21, 2018 15:22:25 GMT
You're sounding pretty self righteous yourself to be honest, how do you know what I did or did not know, or my motives for making the point I did? Just because you would have done that doesn't mean the rest of us would. I know because you then did it again to me in your previous response. I apologise that I am not a sexist, as you clearly wish me to be. I absolutely don't want you, or anyone else to be a sexist!
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Post by gaelgas on Sept 21, 2018 15:31:09 GMT
I'm sure you are not unique in that feeling, my mother on the other hand, would have told me or my dad in no uncertain terms that she could fight her own battles. That's very admirable and I bet your mother is a badass But reading this thread it looks like your replies to people have been purely disregarding opinion and basing it all on your own experience I know if it were me in the situation and I did feel threatened (which i probably wouldn't if it was just chanting) I'd appreciate someone standing up for me Well generally we base our opinions on our own experiences, as I said, I'm sure you are not unique in the way you feel, I was just pointing out that your's, and I think Hugo's, whose comment I originally responded to, are not the only one, and giving the example of my mother, who's opinion would have been different. I do fear that some people, both male and female, think that women are not able to defend themselves and must rely on men to do that, because that's what they have been conditioned to think and it becomes a self perpetuating situation. I'm not implying you think that incidentally.
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Sept 21, 2018 15:55:04 GMT
That's very admirable and I bet your mother is a badass But reading this thread it looks like your replies to people have been purely disregarding opinion and basing it all on your own experience I know if it were me in the situation and I did feel threatened (which i probably wouldn't if it was just chanting) I'd appreciate someone standing up for me Well generally we base our opinions on our own experiences, as I said, I'm sure you are not unique in the way you feel, I was just pointing out that your's, and I think Hugo's, whose comment I originally responded to, are not the only one, and giving the example of my mother, who's opinion would have been different. I do fear that some people, both male and female, think that women are not able to defend themselves and must rely on men to do that, because that's what they have been conditioned to think and it becomes a self perpetuating situation. I'm not implying you think that incidentally. Um, I actually took ownership of why I feel the way I do and it's because of my own (lack of) upbringing. We are only a sum of our education plus experience are we not. I have already explained that I try to treat people equally, but that in this given scenario I would feel protective of a female being singled out among a group of men. I would also stick up for a single bloke being targeted by a group of females. I go back to my original point that feminism, sexism, Political correctness and all the other dumbass labels people want to throw out there to justify themselves, there is nothing that anyone can say to me that will shake my core belief that this incident was anything other than horrible. As an aside, I'd love to have met your relatives, they sound amazing. I think the feminism that led to the fight for equality is a long way from the feminism of today.
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Post by gaelgas on Sept 21, 2018 15:55:05 GMT
Lots of odd mixed messages here. As a bloke I'm not that bothered by terrace chants but I was brought up to have a bit more respect for women. Looks like I'm the sexist one. I don't believe you are being sexist, well if anything, sexist against men, it just sounds like you think that this person should be respected just because she is a woman, or given more respect if you will. I was brought up to believe if something is wrong, it's wrong, irrespective of someone's gender, sexuality, religion, or lack thereof, or race or colour, or whatever. It seems that this is only a story because it was a woman who was getting abuse, equally if it were a gay person or a BAME person, apparently if you are a straight, white male (which I am not incidentally) you are worthy of less respect. I just think everyone should be treated equally.
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Sept 21, 2018 15:58:17 GMT
Lots of odd mixed messages here. As a bloke I'm not that bothered by terrace chants but I was brought up to have a bit more respect for women. Looks like I'm the sexist one. I don't believe you are being sexist, well if anything, sexist against men, it just sounds like you think that this person should be respected just because she is a woman, or given more respect if you will. I was brought up to believe if something is wrong, it's wrong, irrespective of someone's gender, sexuality, religion, or lack thereof, or race or colour, or whatever. It seems that this is only a story because it was a woman who was getting abuse, equally if it were a gay person or a BAME person, apparently if you are a straight, white male (which I am not incidentally) you are worthy of less respect. I just think everyone should be treated equally. I think you are misreading me. I don't have more respect for women than anyone else particularly, but I was brought up to have more respect than this particular woman was being shown. I believe there is a difference even if I'm not explaining myself very well.
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