|
Post by gaelgas on Sept 21, 2018 15:58:22 GMT
Well generally we base our opinions on our own experiences, as I said, I'm sure you are not unique in the way you feel, I was just pointing out that your's, and I think Hugo's, whose comment I originally responded to, are not the only one, and giving the example of my mother, who's opinion would have been different. I do fear that some people, both male and female, think that women are not able to defend themselves and must rely on men to do that, because that's what they have been conditioned to think and it becomes a self perpetuating situation. I'm not implying you think that incidentally. Um, I actually took ownership of why I feel the way I do and it's because of my own (lack of) upbringing. We are only a sum of our education plus experience are we not. I have already explained that I try to treat people equally, but that in this given scenario I would feel protective of a female being singled out among a group of men. I would also stick up for a single bloke being targeted by a group of females. I go back to my original point that feminism, sexism, Political correctness and all the other dumbass labels people want to throw out there to justify themselves, there is nothing that anyone can say to me that will shake my core belief that this incident was anything other than horrible. As an aside, I'd love to have met your relatives, they sound amazing. I think the feminism that led to the fight for equality is a long way from the feminism of today. On your last point we are definitely in agreement, it drives my Mum crazy, for her feminism is just part of a greater fight for equality for everyone, she thinks it's been hijacked a bit.
|
|
|
Post by Hugo the Elder on Sept 21, 2018 16:00:54 GMT
Um, I actually took ownership of why I feel the way I do and it's because of my own (lack of) upbringing. We are only a sum of our education plus experience are we not. I have already explained that I try to treat people equally, but that in this given scenario I would feel protective of a female being singled out among a group of men. I would also stick up for a single bloke being targeted by a group of females. I go back to my original point that feminism, sexism, Political correctness and all the other dumbass labels people want to throw out there to justify themselves, there is nothing that anyone can say to me that will shake my core belief that this incident was anything other than horrible. As an aside, I'd love to have met your relatives, they sound amazing. I think the feminism that led to the fight for equality is a long way from the feminism of today. On your last point we are definitely in agreement, it drives my Mum crazy, for her feminism is just part of a greater fight for equality for everyone, she thinks it's been hijacked a bit. I think a lot of women feel that way, which was why I'd asked you how many women you'd spoken to about it. Shame really.
|
|
|
Post by gaelgas on Sept 21, 2018 16:02:02 GMT
I don't believe you are being sexist, well if anything, sexist against men, it just sounds like you think that this person should be respected just because she is a woman, or given more respect if you will. I was brought up to believe if something is wrong, it's wrong, irrespective of someone's gender, sexuality, religion, or lack thereof, or race or colour, or whatever. It seems that this is only a story because it was a woman who was getting abuse, equally if it were a gay person or a BAME person, apparently if you are a straight, white male (which I am not incidentally) you are worthy of less respect. I just think everyone should be treated equally. I think you are misreading me. I don't have more respect for women than anyone else particularly, but I was brought up to have more respect than this particular woman was being shown. I believe there is a difference even if I'm not explaining myself very well. Sadly those are the limitations of the written word, I suppose when you wrote you were brought up to have a bit more respect for women it sounded as if there was somehow a distinction in your mind between the respect due to men and the respect due to women.
|
|
|
Post by gaelgas on Sept 21, 2018 16:05:53 GMT
On your last point we are definitely in agreement, it drives my Mum crazy, for her feminism is just part of a greater fight for equality for everyone, she thinks it's been hijacked a bit. I think a lot of women feel that way, which was why I'd asked you how many women you'd spoken to about it. Shame really. I believe you are right, but often their voices are drowned out by the virtual signalling minority (of all sexes) who claim the moral high ground and see any criticism of women by men as sexist when it isn't at all.
|
|
|
Post by Gastafari on Sept 21, 2018 16:57:51 GMT
Isn't that patristic and patronising? Are you implying women can't stick up for themselves? I was brought up to believe feminism is about empowering women to do things for themselves, not about getting butt hurt because someone says something mean to a woman Have you actually spoken to any real women about feminism? I have. They all want to be treated equally. Us as fans, male or female chant at Football matches. Whether its at players, managers, referees or opposing fans. Most of them are Male, and its never been as issue. So why is it apparently such an issue now, that a female has been on the receiving end of a harmless chant at a Football match?
|
|
|
Post by Big Jock on Sept 21, 2018 17:02:52 GMT
With all th things that have changed th last 20 years I've alwaes wondered why football fans still manage ta get away with bad behaviour/abuse. It seems a 'fair game' event.
I understand why many families still stay away. Especially with drunken idiots like me about!
|
|
|
Post by Hugo the Elder on Sept 21, 2018 17:13:57 GMT
Have you actually spoken to any real women about feminism? I have. They all want to be treated equally. Us as fans, male or female chant at Football matches. Whether its at players, managers, referees or opposing fans. Most of them are Male, and its never been as issue. So why is it apparently such an issue now, that a female has been on the receiving end of a harmless chant at a Football match? Yeah, you are right, it's all perfectly acceptable. Top bantz.
|
|
|
Post by Gastafari on Sept 21, 2018 17:22:16 GMT
I have. They all want to be treated equally. Us as fans, male or female chant at Football matches. Whether its at players, managers, referees or opposing fans. Most of them are Male, and its never been as issue. So why is it apparently such an issue now, that a female has been on the receiving end of a harmless chant at a Football match? Yeah, you are right, it's all perfectly acceptable. Top bantz. Again, a bit like Mr Fargas you're jumping to conclusions that aren't there. Genuine question, Everybody that's called it abuse and bullying on here, which is quite a few, why do you bother going to Football?
|
|
|
Post by Antonio Fargas on Sept 21, 2018 17:24:39 GMT
Again, a bit like Mr Fargas you're jumping to conclusions that aren't there. If you want to carry on our conversation about it, then PM me, like I suggested. Don't whine about me to someone else.
|
|
|
Post by Big Jock on Sept 21, 2018 17:34:22 GMT
I admit i've done some bad things in ma life and have had ta face th consequences.
It amazes me how a football match is still a place where you can shout obscenities, threaten, bully etc. And thats why it attracts some right Lady Gardens, they lap up th chance ta basically do what they want with little chance of getting pulled by th authorities. Th same people jes wouldnae behave like it outside o' football in my opinion cause they like th 'Pack' mentality an th billy big baws persona it helps them project.
BTW that goes for both sexes.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2018 17:58:23 GMT
Yeah, you are right, it's all perfectly acceptable. Top bantz. Again, a bit like Mr Fargas you're jumping to conclusions that aren't there. Genuine question, Everybody that's called it abuse and bullying on here, which is quite a few, why do you bother going to Football? Primarily because I enjoy watching the game, but also for the social side, and the camaraderie you get with fellow fans you don't even know. Of course there's bad language and "banter", however, the singling out of a lone woman, with a chant that she has an STI crosses the line in my opinion. The fact that the Police and stewards let it carry on, whereas having a word with the boys concerned could have put a stop to it, is disappointing.
|
|
|
Post by Gas_Quarters on Sept 21, 2018 18:12:40 GMT
I see both sides to this argument as it’s a discussion I have regularly and one that makes my head a bit scrambled tbh. I understand the need for equality and completely support it, but at the same time I, like Hugo, have been brought up to believe in chivalry, be a gent and treat women with respect.
Equality should mean that gender is treated as an irrelevant factor, which I agree with when it comes to women having the same opportunity to take up any jobs or activities they wish to. In this sense it should also be treated as an irrelevant factor in legal matters, such as child custody, domestic violence accusations, etc.
However I have an instinct, as I know many men do, to feel more protective over females than I do over males, whether that be my family members, friends, or even strangers. If a man hit a woman in front of a crowd of people, many people would jump up and say “that’s unacceptable” or “you can’t hit a woman” and run to the woman’s aid and probably give the bloke a good hiding. Yet if a woman hit a man, the same response would not happen, nobody would run and beat the woman up on the man’s behalf. So in this sense, we are not treating gender as an irrelevant factor and therefore women as equal.
So I support what Tilly says. I wouldn’t like it if this was my mother/sister/daughter but I also understand the point that Gastafari and gaelgas are making, ‘if you want to be treated the same as men, then take the abuse the same as a man would’.
We live in a world where some women would expect a man to pay on a first date, whereas others are offended if a man wants to pay on a first date as it is an insult to their independence as a woman. In reality, I don’t know where I stand most of the time or what the right answer is, as I feel one way or the other someone will end up offended.
|
|
|
Post by Officer Barbrady on Sept 21, 2018 18:21:55 GMT
Yeah, you are right, it's all perfectly acceptable. Top bantz. Again, a bit like Mr Fargas you're jumping to conclusions that aren't there. Genuine question, Everybody that's called it abuse and bullying on here, which is quite a few, why do you bother going to Football? to watch football
|
|
|
Post by Gastafari on Sept 21, 2018 19:03:05 GMT
Again, a bit like Mr Fargas you're jumping to conclusions that aren't there. Genuine question, Everybody that's called it abuse and bullying on here, which is quite a few, why do you bother going to Football? to watch football Great. I've just never seen anybody mention the words abuse or bullying in regards to Football chants at a Rovers game before.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2018 19:37:33 GMT
Isn't that patristic and patronising? Are you implying women can't stick up for themselves? I was brought up to believe feminism is about empowering women to do things for themselves, not about getting butt hurt because someone says something mean to a woman Have you actually spoken to any real women about feminism? Funnily enough the last couple of dates I've been on have been with two different women who were both at pains to tell me in great detail how much they hate feminism. Personally I used to get wound up by feminism in my younger years but now I just laugh at it because it has gone beyond parody. Interesting to see more and more women with their own job, their own house and their own agency turning against it though...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2018 19:44:21 GMT
On your last point we are definitely in agreement, it drives my Mum crazy, for her feminism is just part of a greater fight for equality for everyone, she thinks it's been hijacked a bit. I think a lot of women feel that way, which was why I'd asked you how many women you'd spoken to about it. Shame really. Absolutely it's been hijacked. Women in the west have a lot of liberties these days and feminism in the west is now about supremacy and pressing the advantage now men are on the back foot. The third world is a different matter and feminism still has a part to play in places like India.
|
|
pirate
Forum Legend
Posts: 18,723
|
Post by pirate on Sept 21, 2018 20:48:01 GMT
Um, I actually took ownership of why I feel the way I do and it's because of my own (lack of) upbringing. We are only a sum of our education plus experience are we not. I have already explained that I try to treat people equally, but that in this given scenario I would feel protective of a female being singled out among a group of men. I would also stick up for a single bloke being targeted by a group of females. I go back to my original point that feminism, sexism, Political correctness and all the other dumbass labels people want to throw out there to justify themselves, there is nothing that anyone can say to me that will shake my core belief that this incident was anything other than horrible. As an aside, I'd love to have met your relatives, they sound amazing. I think the feminism that led to the fight for equality is a long way from the feminism of today. On your last point we are definitely in agreement, it drives my Mum crazy, for her feminism is just part of a greater fight for equality for everyone, she thinks it's been hijacked a bit. Second-wave feminism was a 60's creation by the CIA and helped along by their agent Gloria Steinem.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2018 20:52:38 GMT
On your last point we are definitely in agreement, it drives my Mum crazy, for her feminism is just part of a greater fight for equality for everyone, she thinks it's been hijacked a bit. Second-wave feminism was a 60's creation by the CIA and helped along by their agent Gloria Steinem. The interesting thing about feminism is that it certainly isn't women who are funding the high profile feminist lobby groups in the US...
|
|
|
Post by aghast on Sept 21, 2018 22:16:59 GMT
If you want to know why gay football players never reveal themselves, read this thread.
If you can chant "She's got chlamydia" and "She's gonna cry in a minute" to one woman and think it ok, then god only knows what the first one out of the closet in the Football League will have to go through.
If it's all harmless bantz, perhaps it doesn't matter. They should just man up.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2018 23:09:03 GMT
Why is this story even news anyway?
What is far more vile is the physical violence used on a harmless youth by a City fan resulting in said youth getting a broken nose. Stuff like that is far more heinous than a chant yet won't get picked up by the press because it is male on male even though by all accounts the youth was not looking for any trouble.
The Daily star have played a blinder by using click bait to trigger the chivalrous male's protector gene and are playing a blinder by collecting ad revenue from it. The daily star would be laughing their ass off reading this thread.
Not to say this sort of behaviour should be condoned but people get picked on all the time at football, it just doesn't get reported unless there is something in it for the tabloids like this instance. Trying to stop it is as futile as trying to catch the rain.
|
|